Tough pill to swallow: don't use proximity shielding as an excuse to kill civilians in one of the most dense areas in the world.
After Hamas broke through and started murdering people, I swear people just expected Israel to take it? Not react? Not retaliate? Leave? I don't understand what anyone expected here. Hamas wanted this and knew it would happen.
I mean asymmetrical warfare is a messy affair. Hamas gets new recruits who are angered about their family and homes being destroyed. Big nations typically don't win these kind of engagements in the modern era because at least to modern sensibilities we don't really want to see pointless slaughter and genocide, this isn't to advocate for it, quite far from it but historically typically you would have to be ruthless to subjugate people but thankfully modern sensibilities say that is pretty fucked. So really this will either end up another "forever" war or one of the sides will be wiped out entirely.
Yes, there are people who 100% think Israel not only should forgive and forget about Oct 7. Then there are the people who think Israelis deserve that and worse.
You realize Israel has been the aggressor for over 20 years, right? Palestine has finally gathered enough military resources to counter attack in retaliation. It's self defense at this point
So you agree with the IDF in that targeting civilians is self defense?
Or are we playing pedantic games again where we try to rationalize bad things by wearing victimized status one moment while murdering children the next?
Maybe the IDF and Hamas are both responsible. Hamas aren't freedom fighters like my fellow lefties are making them out to be. They want a theonomic system. And they have one.
Wow, you know nothing about the conflict
True, Israel has actually been the aggressor for waaaaaay longer than 20 years.
Since the Gazans are using their own children as human shields, what do you suggest the Israelis do instead?
Not committing war crimes is an option. Do you not understand that?
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all.
Straight to petty little barbs? I guess I upset you.
Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation.
Now do Israel, they have blood on their hands too. Do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they did for funsies? That you're blind to this speaks more to your bias than your understanding of the history of this conflict.
One which you would never accept had your children been murdered.
You're so close to figuring it out, keep going. I believe in you.
The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?
Did I say that? No I didn't. You started with an ad hominem and ended with a straw man, all in the same paragraph. Nice work, champ.
You've had two opportunities how to suggest a better path, but the silence is deafening. It's clear you don't want the terrorists brought to justice.
You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.
We could start with the Israelis ditching Netanyahu and electing a non-war criminal who is committed to a two state solution. That would be a good start.
You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.
No, I'm specifically and repeatedly asking what to do with the terrorists. The people who murdered the babies. Not the whole conflict. The terrorists. I wrote that very clearly, and your inability to read that is entirely on you.
I would've thought that was pretty simple. If Israel can kill them without the loss of civilian life, have at it. If they can't, then they shouldn't do that.
Clear?
Since they're using children as human shields, you're arguing for them not to be brought to justice. I don't think that's a reasonable solution. They did terrible things and they should be brought to justice.
Your position is that it's fine to massacre children? If so you're a fucking ghoul. Give your head a shake.
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be given amnesty? It’s always the same with you terrorists sympathisers.
So, nothing?
Literally Israel can stop committing war crimes but somehow that is not a good enough solution for you. Gaza didn't slaughter anyone, instead they had to say goodbye to thousands of civilians, in mass graves. Israel is starving and dehydrating them, allowing diseases to spread by ignoring every call for a ceasefire. Israel is committing a genocide. Israel is repeating the atrocities of the holocaust. Palestinians are now dying in the West Bank and in Israeli prisons by the blessing of the army and government, just as Jews were disappearing and being killed on the hands of Nazi Germany. They are being demonized and dehumanized just as Jews were. We need to learn from history. Never again includes Palestinians. This is not only me speaking, but countless Jews around the world and in Israel. Israel has done so much to shame pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist Jewish peace organizations. It has done all it can to discredit and punish Palestinians. The list is so long, torture and rape, apartheid, land grabbing, etc. Then Bibi himself helped Hamas prosper as an extremist organization to now get a green light for genocide. This is the madness this world is in now.
What you are suggesting is genocidal. You are calling a population of almost 50% children terrorists and rationalizing their daily murder of Palestinians.
Four opportunities now, and you've made it clear you want to protect the terrorists. You're in the minority. They should be brought to justice.
I gave you enough time and thoughtful comments. I'm done playing the troll game. It's clear that you just want to be right rather than consider another person's viewpoint.
You try to make it look like there is no choice but Israel always had the choice to not kill.
You've had three opportunities to suggest a better path, but crickets. It's clear you don't want the terrorists to be brought to justice.
Yeah totally clear from an internet discussion.
Please stop going around accusing people of supporting terrorists. No one is doing that here on Lemmy, execpt maybe those who support Israel which is a terrorists state after breaking all these int laws.
Well if you want to protect the murderous terrorists from justice, you are a terrorist sympathiser. That's what you are.
At the very least they should be TRYING to limit civilian deaths. They're clearly not doing that much, as is evident by their invasion of the west bank as well where Hamas ISN'T.
Israel keeps saying they're going to do something then kind of scales it back. They kept knocking after they said they were going to stop, for example. No clue if they are now, but I expected a higher death toll considering population density.
Also, Hamas and IJ do have some presence in the West Bank. I have no clue how much Israel is focusing on that since media coverage is focused on Gaza, and, well, I don't fucking trust anyone.
A mere 38% would vote for Hamas, and the "attacks against civilians" thing is phrased in a way that makes it meaningless. For one: What's the motive? Is it genocidal rampage or "I want them to feel the pain they cause us?"
If you do a poll right now in Israel and ask "Are you in favour of the IDF's actions in Gaza right now" you'd get very high support for attacks on civilians. See how that works?
All you're doing there is say "The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity". That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you're using fascist logic.
All you’re doing there is say “The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity”. That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you’re using fascist logic.
I'm pretty sure you can find Kahanite documents saying essentially the same thing in the other direction. And do I have to remind you that there's currently Kahanites in the Israeli government. You don't get to complain about other people's fascists before you deal with yours at home.
Also how are you still equating Palestinians at large and Hamas.
Because Hamas is the central authority of Gaza.
They're the resident dictatorship, yes, there haven't been elections since 2006, and the reason they got into power was less about Hamas being strong but Fatah being weak because corrupt. Last Israeli elections? 2022, resulting in Netanyahu and his Kahanites. And that even though pudding is still expensive... care to justify that?
Polls also clearly show that Gazans want democracy back, that they want Hamas to hand over security to the PA, and various other things. If you want Gazans to get rid of Hamas themselves, go ahead, be my guest, give them the weapons to do so... or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?
Stop fucking deflecting responsibility. Clean up your own house before you complain about that of your neighbour.
Polls also clearly show that Gazans want democracy back, that they want Hamas to hand over security to the PA, and various other things.
Link em
If you want Gazans to get rid of Hamas themselves, go ahead, be my guest, give them the weapons to do so… or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?
Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas’ policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,” a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.
Specifically, Gazans believe that Palestinians should push more against corruption in the PA and Hamas. Most (87%) of Gazans would also like Hamas and the PA to allow free and fair elections, a notable 20-point difference from West Bankers (65%) and East Jerusalemites (66%).
Already been tried, my dude, Hamas said no.
Hamas doesn't want to be disposed of? Colour me surprised, indeed /s.
Also when has Israel given weapons to Gazans to get rid of Hamas I'd like to have a source on that. Did you even read what I wrote.
Except they pretty much share the same house that can’t agree on anything.
And that's why Israel needs to have a fascist minister for national security? A guy who called for the assassination of Rabin? Like, no alternative to that?
E.g. here. Snippets:
Some hopeful signs, though the article does point out that Gaza does not want to settle with two states, difficult problem.
Also when has Israel given weapons to Gazans to get rid of Hamas I’d like to have a source on that. Did you even read what I wrote.
Yeah, you said 'or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?', so I gave some examples of the different attempts of dealing with hamas. It's all in the wikipedia article, though it is quite lengthy, admittedly.
And that’s why Israel needs to have a fascist minister for national security? A guy who called for the assassination of Rabin? Like, no alternative to that?
I'm sure there are alternatives. It's a democratic republic, but terror breeds bigots.
Tough pill to swallow: don't use proximity shielding as an excuse to kill civilians in one of the most dense areas in the world.
After Hamas broke through and started murdering people, I swear people just expected Israel to take it? Not react? Not retaliate? Leave? I don't understand what anyone expected here. Hamas wanted this and knew it would happen.
I mean asymmetrical warfare is a messy affair. Hamas gets new recruits who are angered about their family and homes being destroyed. Big nations typically don't win these kind of engagements in the modern era because at least to modern sensibilities we don't really want to see pointless slaughter and genocide, this isn't to advocate for it, quite far from it but historically typically you would have to be ruthless to subjugate people but thankfully modern sensibilities say that is pretty fucked. So really this will either end up another "forever" war or one of the sides will be wiped out entirely.
Yes, there are people who 100% think Israel not only should forgive and forget about Oct 7. Then there are the people who think Israelis deserve that and worse.
You realize Israel has been the aggressor for over 20 years, right? Palestine has finally gathered enough military resources to counter attack in retaliation. It's self defense at this point
So you agree with the IDF in that targeting civilians is self defense?
Or are we playing pedantic games again where we try to rationalize bad things by wearing victimized status one moment while murdering children the next? Maybe the IDF and Hamas are both responsible. Hamas aren't freedom fighters like my fellow lefties are making them out to be. They want a theonomic system. And they have one.
Wow, you know nothing about the conflict
True, Israel has actually been the aggressor for waaaaaay longer than 20 years.
Since the Gazans are using their own children as human shields, what do you suggest the Israelis do instead?
Not committing war crimes is an option. Do you not understand that?
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?
Straight to petty little barbs? I guess I upset you.
Now do Israel, they have blood on their hands too. Do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they did for funsies? That you're blind to this speaks more to your bias than your understanding of the history of this conflict.
You're so close to figuring it out, keep going. I believe in you.
Did I say that? No I didn't. You started with an ad hominem and ended with a straw man, all in the same paragraph. Nice work, champ.
You've had two opportunities how to suggest a better path, but the silence is deafening. It's clear you don't want the terrorists brought to justice.
You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.
We could start with the Israelis ditching Netanyahu and electing a non-war criminal who is committed to a two state solution. That would be a good start.
No, I'm specifically and repeatedly asking what to do with the terrorists. The people who murdered the babies. Not the whole conflict. The terrorists. I wrote that very clearly, and your inability to read that is entirely on you.
I would've thought that was pretty simple. If Israel can kill them without the loss of civilian life, have at it. If they can't, then they shouldn't do that.
Clear?
Since they're using children as human shields, you're arguing for them not to be brought to justice. I don't think that's a reasonable solution. They did terrible things and they should be brought to justice.
Your position is that it's fine to massacre children? If so you're a fucking ghoul. Give your head a shake.
Copying your own comments is lazy and comes off as if you don't take them seriously.
I'd actually like to see someone answer the question, so it's kind of sad.
Not bomb the children. I think it's pretty easy.
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be given amnesty? It’s always the same with you terrorists sympathisers.
Literally Israel can stop committing war crimes but somehow that is not a good enough solution for you. Gaza didn't slaughter anyone, instead they had to say goodbye to thousands of civilians, in mass graves. Israel is starving and dehydrating them, allowing diseases to spread by ignoring every call for a ceasefire. Israel is committing a genocide. Israel is repeating the atrocities of the holocaust. Palestinians are now dying in the West Bank and in Israeli prisons by the blessing of the army and government, just as Jews were disappearing and being killed on the hands of Nazi Germany. They are being demonized and dehumanized just as Jews were. We need to learn from history. Never again includes Palestinians. This is not only me speaking, but countless Jews around the world and in Israel. Israel has done so much to shame pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist Jewish peace organizations. It has done all it can to discredit and punish Palestinians. The list is so long, torture and rape, apartheid, land grabbing, etc. Then Bibi himself helped Hamas prosper as an extremist organization to now get a green light for genocide. This is the madness this world is in now.
What you are suggesting is genocidal. You are calling a population of almost 50% children terrorists and rationalizing their daily murder of Palestinians.
Four opportunities now, and you've made it clear you want to protect the terrorists. You're in the minority. They should be brought to justice.
I gave you enough time and thoughtful comments. I'm done playing the troll game. It's clear that you just want to be right rather than consider another person's viewpoint.
That ratio though.
You try to make it look like there is no choice but Israel always had the choice to not kill.
You've had three opportunities to suggest a better path, but crickets. It's clear you don't want the terrorists to be brought to justice.
Yeah totally clear from an internet discussion.
Please stop going around accusing people of supporting terrorists. No one is doing that here on Lemmy, execpt maybe those who support Israel which is a terrorists state after breaking all these int laws.
Well if you want to protect the murderous terrorists from justice, you are a terrorist sympathiser. That's what you are.
At the very least they should be TRYING to limit civilian deaths. They're clearly not doing that much, as is evident by their invasion of the west bank as well where Hamas ISN'T.
Also: https://online.anyflip.com/nuvqm/zrwp/mobile/index.html
Israel keeps saying they're going to do something then kind of scales it back. They kept knocking after they said they were going to stop, for example. No clue if they are now, but I expected a higher death toll considering population density.
Also, Hamas and IJ do have some presence in the West Bank. I have no clue how much Israel is focusing on that since media coverage is focused on Gaza, and, well, I don't fucking trust anyone.
AP report describing Israeli arrests of 480 Hamas members in the West Bank
Israeli reports are claiming most of those killed in the West Bank were engaging in active combat, and are known members of Hamas (or PIJ)
Liars are lying.
Regular Gazans are not using their children as human shields. Hamas is using children as human shields.
Almost 70% of Gazans support armed attacks on Israeli civilians. Most Gazans are terrorists or terrorist supporters. Nothing “regular” about that. The majority of them are clearly either using children or support using children as human shields.
A mere 38% would vote for Hamas, and the "attacks against civilians" thing is phrased in a way that makes it meaningless. For one: What's the motive? Is it genocidal rampage or "I want them to feel the pain they cause us?"
If you do a poll right now in Israel and ask "Are you in favour of the IDF's actions in Gaza right now" you'd get very high support for attacks on civilians. See how that works?
All you're doing there is say "The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity". That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you're using fascist logic.
The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
I'm pretty sure you can find Kahanite documents saying essentially the same thing in the other direction. And do I have to remind you that there's currently Kahanites in the Israeli government. You don't get to complain about other people's fascists before you deal with yours at home.
Also how are you still equating Palestinians at large and Hamas.
Because Hamas is the central authority of Gaza.
They're the resident dictatorship, yes, there haven't been elections since 2006, and the reason they got into power was less about Hamas being strong but Fatah being weak because corrupt. Last Israeli elections? 2022, resulting in Netanyahu and his Kahanites. And that even though pudding is still expensive... care to justify that?
Polls also clearly show that Gazans want democracy back, that they want Hamas to hand over security to the PA, and various other things. If you want Gazans to get rid of Hamas themselves, go ahead, be my guest, give them the weapons to do so... or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?
Stop fucking deflecting responsibility. Clean up your own house before you complain about that of your neighbour.
Link em
Already been tried, my dude, Hamas said no.
Except they pretty much share the same house that can't agree on anything.
E.g. here. Snippets:
Hamas doesn't want to be disposed of? Colour me surprised, indeed /s.
Also when has Israel given weapons to Gazans to get rid of Hamas I'd like to have a source on that. Did you even read what I wrote.
And that's why Israel needs to have a fascist minister for national security? A guy who called for the assassination of Rabin? Like, no alternative to that?
Some hopeful signs, though the article does point out that Gaza does not want to settle with two states, difficult problem.
Yeah, you said 'or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?', so I gave some examples of the different attempts of dealing with hamas. It's all in the wikipedia article, though it is quite lengthy, admittedly.
I'm sure there are alternatives. It's a democratic republic, but terror breeds bigots.
@JasSmith @snek @dingleberry your commentary is disgusting
Thanks for being so informative lol
@snek not you, Jas