Jesus Christ, am I on Reddit right now? The guy is spitting facts and getting lectured and downvoted. Are liberals really this sensitive now? It's mind-blowing to an older guy.
It’s dishonest because the Republicans both initiated the vote to remove McCarthy
This is what I wrote
and had the numbers to reelect him.
This is in accordance with what I wrote: Dems could've reelected McCarthy.
While you are correct democrats could have voted for McCarthy,
Right? And
I’m not really sure why they should/wpuld as he had already reneged on budgetary issues
As I clarified in that comment, I was not saying they should.
So, you're not disagreeing with me, are you? I therefore don't see why I'm criticized.
The initial comment stated that it was the Republicans who voted McCarthy out. You called that statement wrong, that democrats voted him out. While you could argue semantics about the voting process, this historic event of ousting a speaker was controlled by the republican party. You're claim otherwise is dishonest (misleading) because the democrats acted the way the minority party always acts for speaker votes, meaning the Republicans knew what the outcome of the vote would be.
It would be the same as saying democrats were the ones responsible for the initial election of McCarthy taking so long. While they didn't vote for him, that's not new or surprising, the surprising thing was Republicans inability to agree on a speaker (and thus making them the ones primarily at fault for failing to elect a speaker). To state otherwise is misleading because you are purposefully ignoring important details.
This simply isn't true. The minority party, GOP or Dem have been known to support speakers of the opposite party when it suited their purposes.
On Tuesday, Democrats voted unanimously alongside Republican Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida and seven other GOP members to remove McCarthy as Speaker. Despite talk over the weekend that some Democrats might cut a deal with McCarthy to save him, the Speaker ultimately refused to offer members of the opposition party any concessions, leaving Democrats united against him. In the narrowly divided House, only a handful of Republicans needed to join Democrats to create the majority needed to win the vote.
I understand what you say, but in this particular instance I'd like to live with the view that both semantics holds, due to the following criterion on my side.
The perception by some newspaper I read outside the US was that Gaetz & co. was a small minority rightwing and everybody didn't want to play his childish game.
You say it was predictable that Dems would vote against a Republican Speaker, and that indeed turned out to be the case. However, at the same time Dems essentially voted together with Gaetz and that was a bit surprising to me and that newspaper.
Ah, that last paragraph really helps explain your viewpoint. While you could argue that Dems voted "with" Gaetz against McCarthy, they certainly didn't vote for the same people for speaker. The real problem here is that while US, by law (as in laws officially recognize a two party system), is a two party system this situation is best understood from a 3 party perspective (Maga, Republicans, democrats).
The Republicans need the Maga votes to form a coalition to elect a speaker, democrats would prefer their coalition gets to elect a speaker. When you understand all of the chaos is the republicans and Maga Republicans fighting over power in their "coalition" it's easier to understand everyone's behavior.
With that context none of this has been surprising and many people were expecting a Maga republican to call the speaker vote at some point. It also reinforces the concept that this is more about republican infighting rather than anything going on with the democrats.
Just like in parliamentary systems, one coalition isn't going to vote for the other without some concessions. Republicans weren't willing to concede anything to democrats and thus had to cater to the Maga Republicans (which is why most wouldn't put blame on democrats in this scenario).
It's an intellectually deficint argument. You know the gop called the vote and yet you want to act like this has anything to do with the democrats. The only reason you are pushing this "point" is to try to both sides this bullshit. You are doing nothing but attempting to push a narrative, a lazy one that no one is buying btw.
Wait, it's not like OP criticized Trump and I said "but Hillary".
The OP's argument was wrong. It was not Mat Gaetz' "vote". Dems did choose to oust McCarthy.
That's not "both side". I just corrected OP.
Edit: the context is that Rs votes split exactly as expected. Dems knew the expectation and chose to oust McCarthy. That's a fact.
Edit: the context is that Rs votes split exactly as expected. Dems knew the expectation and chose to oust McCarthy. That’s a fact.
This can NOT be serious. This argument is on the same level as "I didn't punch him, I was just swinging my arms wildly and they put their face in the path of my fist". Are you actually 5 years old, or just pretending?
That had to happen first, before you factor in the Dems. Without that choice, the Dems would be irrelevant.
The Republicans MADE the Democrats relevant.
You're choosing not to see that
Majority rule made the Dems relevant. Since that's the entire structure of our democracy then maybe there's a bit more strategy to it than you're willing to observe.
@fattylumpkin just reread my last reply. You're blaming the bullet, not the trigger finger.
Analogy isn't working for me. I've turned it off and back on again. Still nothing. 😆
As I wrote, Rs against McCarthy didn't reach majority.
So, would you please take back that insult? Should I explain further what you don't understand here?
Let me flip your argument: US conservatives always knew there would be roughly 212 democratic votes against anything they do.
Why would they, with 221 votes in their side, do something like this? If they didn't want this to happen, why would conservatives take this action?
Why do democrats have to clean up conservative messes? Why can't they be adults and act responsibly?
Can you explain to me why my comment equated to "I didn’t punch him, I was just swinging my arms wildly and they put their face in the path of my fist"?
I don't see how.
Conservatives started this by starting the vote, by having people like Gaetz in the party without doing anything about it. Conservatives are letting MAGA idiots into their party without issue. Conservatives then start a vote to get rid of someone democrats loathe, and they do exactly what's expected, enabled by a number of conservatives who could easily stop such a vote since they're the larger party.
Then conservatives completely fail to clean up the mess they created. And now you're saying "why would democrats allow us to remove our own speaker? Don't they know everyone gets hurts when we're allowed to do the things we do?"
I think you assume I'm pro-Republican. I'm actually not.
We can agree that Republicans are the cause of this problem.
I was just correcting OP's comment. I clarified that further in some of the comments here.
In the original comment, I even wrote that I'm not suggesting Ds are to be blamed.
I actually (mostly) agree with that. I know conservatives are bad. Can you finally explain to me why you equated my comment to "I didn't punch him..."?
Wait, I think I'm too tired now as it's late in the night here. I'll reply tomorrow if I find the motivation.
You're just shouting "dishonest". Can you tell me exactly which part of my text is dishonest? It feels as if you're in tribalism where you label any inconvenient fact as dishonesty and move on to protect yourself.
I did. And I'm done here. Good day.
It is a fact.
Really wish Lemmyverse liberals here weren't exactly as pedantic and defensive as they are on every other social media site.
Well, thank god, I occasionally find someone with reading skills here.
This is such a dishonest argument. You're nothing more then a troll.
Can you explain to me why it's dishonest? I believe I'm just stating facts.
Edit: What I mean is that I just corrected what OP wrote.
It's dishonest because the Republicans both initiated the vote to remove McCarthy and had the numbers to reelect him. While you are correct democrats could have voted for McCarthy, I'm not really sure why they should/wpuld as he had already reneged on budgetary issues - https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4047677-democratic-leader-accuses-mccarthy-of-reneging-budget-deal-biden/
Jesus Christ, am I on Reddit right now? The guy is spitting facts and getting lectured and downvoted. Are liberals really this sensitive now? It's mind-blowing to an older guy.
This is what I wrote
This is in accordance with what I wrote: Dems could've reelected McCarthy.
Right? And
As I clarified in that comment, I was not saying they should.
So, you're not disagreeing with me, are you? I therefore don't see why I'm criticized.
The initial comment stated that it was the Republicans who voted McCarthy out. You called that statement wrong, that democrats voted him out. While you could argue semantics about the voting process, this historic event of ousting a speaker was controlled by the republican party. You're claim otherwise is dishonest (misleading) because the democrats acted the way the minority party always acts for speaker votes, meaning the Republicans knew what the outcome of the vote would be.
It would be the same as saying democrats were the ones responsible for the initial election of McCarthy taking so long. While they didn't vote for him, that's not new or surprising, the surprising thing was Republicans inability to agree on a speaker (and thus making them the ones primarily at fault for failing to elect a speaker). To state otherwise is misleading because you are purposefully ignoring important details.
This simply isn't true. The minority party, GOP or Dem have been known to support speakers of the opposite party when it suited their purposes.
Look at any of the elections since 2001 (and probably well before). Not a single vote (at least that I saw) for the opposition from either party - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Speaker_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections
This is why you're getting down voted, it's not about what politics it's that you aren't giving correct information.
Nah, the downvotes are weird partisanship. The rest of the world knows that these parties sometimes cut deals on speakers.
https://time.com/6320202/house-democrats-refused-save-kevin-mccarthy/
I understand what you say, but in this particular instance I'd like to live with the view that both semantics holds, due to the following criterion on my side.
The perception by some newspaper I read outside the US was that Gaetz & co. was a small minority rightwing and everybody didn't want to play his childish game.
You say it was predictable that Dems would vote against a Republican Speaker, and that indeed turned out to be the case. However, at the same time Dems essentially voted together with Gaetz and that was a bit surprising to me and that newspaper.
Ah, that last paragraph really helps explain your viewpoint. While you could argue that Dems voted "with" Gaetz against McCarthy, they certainly didn't vote for the same people for speaker. The real problem here is that while US, by law (as in laws officially recognize a two party system), is a two party system this situation is best understood from a 3 party perspective (Maga, Republicans, democrats).
The Republicans need the Maga votes to form a coalition to elect a speaker, democrats would prefer their coalition gets to elect a speaker. When you understand all of the chaos is the republicans and Maga Republicans fighting over power in their "coalition" it's easier to understand everyone's behavior.
With that context none of this has been surprising and many people were expecting a Maga republican to call the speaker vote at some point. It also reinforces the concept that this is more about republican infighting rather than anything going on with the democrats.
Just like in parliamentary systems, one coalition isn't going to vote for the other without some concessions. Republicans weren't willing to concede anything to democrats and thus had to cater to the Maga Republicans (which is why most wouldn't put blame on democrats in this scenario).
It's an intellectually deficint argument. You know the gop called the vote and yet you want to act like this has anything to do with the democrats. The only reason you are pushing this "point" is to try to both sides this bullshit. You are doing nothing but attempting to push a narrative, a lazy one that no one is buying btw.
Wait, it's not like OP criticized Trump and I said "but Hillary".
The OP's argument was wrong. It was not Mat Gaetz' "vote". Dems did choose to oust McCarthy.
That's not "both side". I just corrected OP.
Edit: the context is that Rs votes split exactly as expected. Dems knew the expectation and chose to oust McCarthy. That's a fact.
This can NOT be serious. This argument is on the same level as "I didn't punch him, I was just swinging my arms wildly and they put their face in the path of my fist". Are you actually 5 years old, or just pretending?
@Tar_alcaran @bedrooms
Who has the majority in the House?
The Republicans.
End of story.
Not end of story. Rs against McCarthy didn't reach majority.
@bedrooms because... come on. You're so close...😆
If you don't explain, please understand that I'm not interested in what emoji you use.
@bedrooms @LaFinlandia @mawkishdave @Djtecha @Tar_alcaran only the Republicans had the power to keep McCarthy
They CHOSE not to exercise that power.
That had to happen first, before you factor in the Dems. Without that choice, the Dems would be irrelevant.
The Republicans MADE the Democrats relevant.
You're choosing not to see that
Majority rule made the Dems relevant. Since that's the entire structure of our democracy then maybe there's a bit more strategy to it than you're willing to observe.
@fattylumpkin just reread my last reply. You're blaming the bullet, not the trigger finger.
Analogy isn't working for me. I've turned it off and back on again. Still nothing. 😆
As I wrote, Rs against McCarthy didn't reach majority.
So, would you please take back that insult? Should I explain further what you don't understand here?
Let me flip your argument: US conservatives always knew there would be roughly 212 democratic votes against anything they do.
Why would they, with 221 votes in their side, do something like this? If they didn't want this to happen, why would conservatives take this action?
Why do democrats have to clean up conservative messes? Why can't they be adults and act responsibly?
Can you explain to me why my comment equated to "I didn’t punch him, I was just swinging my arms wildly and they put their face in the path of my fist"?
I don't see how.
Conservatives started this by starting the vote, by having people like Gaetz in the party without doing anything about it. Conservatives are letting MAGA idiots into their party without issue. Conservatives then start a vote to get rid of someone democrats loathe, and they do exactly what's expected, enabled by a number of conservatives who could easily stop such a vote since they're the larger party.
Then conservatives completely fail to clean up the mess they created. And now you're saying "why would democrats allow us to remove our own speaker? Don't they know everyone gets hurts when we're allowed to do the things we do?"
I think you assume I'm pro-Republican. I'm actually not.
We can agree that Republicans are the cause of this problem.
I was just correcting OP's comment. I clarified that further in some of the comments here.
In the original comment, I even wrote that I'm not suggesting Ds are to be blamed.
I actually (mostly) agree with that. I know conservatives are bad. Can you finally explain to me why you equated my comment to "I didn't punch him..."?Wait, I think I'm too tired now as it's late in the night here. I'll reply tomorrow if I find the motivation.
Yea, dishonest argument. Peace out.
You're just shouting "dishonest". Can you tell me exactly which part of my text is dishonest? It feels as if you're in tribalism where you label any inconvenient fact as dishonesty and move on to protect yourself.
I did. And I'm done here. Good day.
It is a fact.
Really wish Lemmyverse liberals here weren't exactly as pedantic and defensive as they are on every other social media site.
Well, thank god, I occasionally find someone with reading skills here.