What about the 2 million Palestinian hostages that Israel has already started killing?
Same message, but as a threat.
In theory the hostage situation ending should put significant additional pressure on Israel to back off on its retaliation.
Even if it's widely agreed that their retaliation is extremely disproportionate, if their public rationale is partly "we're combating the people who attacked us and took two hundred hostages we need to rescue" - once the hostages are all accounted for the immediacy argument goes out the window and they are left with either admitting the continued efforts are about expanding settlement or stepping things back.
Honestly if the hostages are rescued and they continue the bombing and forced migration (which I expect the administration would like to), it'd likely spell the end of the extreme right wing in Israel.
If Hamas were smart, they'd immediately release the hostages still alive unconditionally and return the dead, forcing Netanyahu's hand in either de-escalating or cutting the BS in what this is really about and facing the consequences internationally and domestically.
Though that would also mean a more moderate future Israeli government, which isn't necessarily what Hamas wants or is aligned to their goals, so even though that's what would be good for the Palestinian civilians, I'm doubtful it will happen and we'll instead have considerable future bloodshed.
I think that Netanyahu’s rhetoric has been clear that the hostages are not the his primary concern. His focus is on eliminating Hamas entirely. I don’t disagree that releasing the hostages needs to happen if there’s to be any hope of a deescalation, but I think it’s a longer road to the conflict ceasing than Hamas doing what they should’ve done as soon as Israel retaliated.
I mean, I think anyone paying close attention knows that the administration's real priorities are expansion, though luckily I think there's enough visibility and blowback that they have hopefully walked that back internally.
Going after Hamas as an organization is probably better done with a long term and more refined strategy than short term leveling half of Palestine.
I'm very curious what's going to happen now that they are raiding the hospital.
That you had US intelligence publicly agree that it's a center of operations for Hamas, footage of combatants firing RPGs from near the hospital, then a few hours ago Biden is all like "we're coming for you hostages" and now there's a very risky ground operation going into the hospital...
While I'm too cynical to hope for actual good news, I do think the next few hours will be very enlightening.
I saw the video from CNN where they were with the IDF and its either all blown up or bulldozed to find tunnels. I haven't seen that since pictures of dresden. Northern Gaza is gonna be a parking lot in 2 years with settlers.
Most modern war ends up with parking lots. Did you see the before and after of Syria's civil war?
It's part of what infuriates me so much with the casual conversation around a civil war in the US. Like, it's not a conflict with muskets that will eventually end with one side in power over the surviving republic. A drawn out civil conflict between nuclear armed states in the country with the largest military expenditure in the world is basically just going to flatten the entire thing and escalate to a world war.
Diplomatic avenues are ever more important as we move further and further into 21st century warfare.
And as we have seen over and over with conflicts in the past few decades, authoritarianism must be kept out of world governments for those avenues to be given a chance.
I really don't think we'd be seeing the same tragedy in Gaza right now had efforts to oust Netanyahu for corruption been successful before the attacks.
Portions of Iraq were like this as well. I know because I saw it with my own two eyes.
You missed the part where Isreal "extremely disproportionate retaliation" is "definition" of "war crimes" from "legitimate government" that is "recognized" by many countries.
Hostage or no hostage this is a war crime...
Here is the list:
For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:
Wilful killing
Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health;
Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power;
Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;
Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;
Taking of hostages.
And ;
**projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering **or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the international law of armed conflict, provided that such weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare are the subject of a comprehensive prohibition and are included in an annex to this Statute, by an amendment in accordance with the relevant provisions set forth in articles 121 and 123;
Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence also constituting a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;
**Utilizing the presence of a civilian **or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
**Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, **material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;
**Intentionally using starvation of civilians **as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;
Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities.
I did not miss that part.
No one rational and well read on the topic is disputing that both Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes numerous times over the past two decades, including in the current conflict.
Hamas doesn't want to deescalate, I believe. They want Israel's actions to make not joining the fight untenable for the West Bank, Hezbollah, and other Arab nations.
What about the 2 million Palestinian hostages that Israel has already started killing?
Same message, but as a threat.
In theory the hostage situation ending should put significant additional pressure on Israel to back off on its retaliation.
Even if it's widely agreed that their retaliation is extremely disproportionate, if their public rationale is partly "we're combating the people who attacked us and took two hundred hostages we need to rescue" - once the hostages are all accounted for the immediacy argument goes out the window and they are left with either admitting the continued efforts are about expanding settlement or stepping things back.
Honestly if the hostages are rescued and they continue the bombing and forced migration (which I expect the administration would like to), it'd likely spell the end of the extreme right wing in Israel.
If Hamas were smart, they'd immediately release the hostages still alive unconditionally and return the dead, forcing Netanyahu's hand in either de-escalating or cutting the BS in what this is really about and facing the consequences internationally and domestically.
Though that would also mean a more moderate future Israeli government, which isn't necessarily what Hamas wants or is aligned to their goals, so even though that's what would be good for the Palestinian civilians, I'm doubtful it will happen and we'll instead have considerable future bloodshed.
I think that Netanyahu’s rhetoric has been clear that the hostages are not the his primary concern. His focus is on eliminating Hamas entirely. I don’t disagree that releasing the hostages needs to happen if there’s to be any hope of a deescalation, but I think it’s a longer road to the conflict ceasing than Hamas doing what they should’ve done as soon as Israel retaliated.
I mean, I think anyone paying close attention knows that the administration's real priorities are expansion, though luckily I think there's enough visibility and blowback that they have hopefully walked that back internally.
Going after Hamas as an organization is probably better done with a long term and more refined strategy than short term leveling half of Palestine.
I'm very curious what's going to happen now that they are raiding the hospital.
That you had US intelligence publicly agree that it's a center of operations for Hamas, footage of combatants firing RPGs from near the hospital, then a few hours ago Biden is all like "we're coming for you hostages" and now there's a very risky ground operation going into the hospital...
While I'm too cynical to hope for actual good news, I do think the next few hours will be very enlightening.
I saw the video from CNN where they were with the IDF and its either all blown up or bulldozed to find tunnels. I haven't seen that since pictures of dresden. Northern Gaza is gonna be a parking lot in 2 years with settlers.
Most modern war ends up with parking lots. Did you see the before and after of Syria's civil war?
It's part of what infuriates me so much with the casual conversation around a civil war in the US. Like, it's not a conflict with muskets that will eventually end with one side in power over the surviving republic. A drawn out civil conflict between nuclear armed states in the country with the largest military expenditure in the world is basically just going to flatten the entire thing and escalate to a world war.
Diplomatic avenues are ever more important as we move further and further into 21st century warfare.
And as we have seen over and over with conflicts in the past few decades, authoritarianism must be kept out of world governments for those avenues to be given a chance.
I really don't think we'd be seeing the same tragedy in Gaza right now had efforts to oust Netanyahu for corruption been successful before the attacks.
Portions of Iraq were like this as well. I know because I saw it with my own two eyes.
You missed the part where Isreal "extremely disproportionate retaliation" is "definition" of "war crimes" from "legitimate government" that is "recognized" by many countries.
Hostage or no hostage this is a war crime...
Here is the list:
For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means: Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:
Wilful killing
Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health;
Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power;
Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;
Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;
Taking of hostages.
And ;
**projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering **or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the international law of armed conflict, provided that such weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare are the subject of a comprehensive prohibition and are included in an annex to this Statute, by an amendment in accordance with the relevant provisions set forth in articles 121 and 123;
Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment; Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence also constituting a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;
**Utilizing the presence of a civilian **or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
**Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, **material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;
**Intentionally using starvation of civilians **as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;
Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities.
I did not miss that part.
No one rational and well read on the topic is disputing that both Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes numerous times over the past two decades, including in the current conflict.
Hamas doesn't want to deescalate, I believe. They want Israel's actions to make not joining the fight untenable for the West Bank, Hezbollah, and other Arab nations.