Discord is an absolute piece of garbage, it's not a good messaging app, definitely not a good place to host a community (seriously, I don't understand why some communities saw Discord as an alternative after the Reddit API changes), and most importantly, it's spyware. The company doesn't have a business model and it was founded by a guy who is notorious for creating random shit that's not economically sustainable at all. I don't understand why anyone would use this shit. This video outlines everything that's wrong with Discord: https://youtube.com/watch?v=uvNkdAggUGU
The problem is convincing other people to switch as well. There's no point in me using Matrix if all of the people I want to communicate with only want to use Discord.
But hope this would be the last time we would need to do it.
I don't understand why Revolt decided to reinvent the wheel and not use Matrix. They could've been a great alternative server and/or UI.
Why don't you ask the Matrix team why they decided to re-invent XMPP and add a stupid HTTP API?
Because they didn't reinvent xmpp, they reinvented Google Wave.
A lot of Matrix.org is inspired by what Wave could have been - although we are running late with threading (but some work is happening currently there). From our perspective, one of the biggest gaps was the lack of bridging in Wave to other existing comms interfaces (eg email) - as well as the quirky UX.
Both XMPP and Matrix can be used for real-time messaging, but they are very different unerneath.
I agree
Sadly, can't get my server to make the jump. Doesn't help that Revolt is missing a few features and Matrix just... Doesn't work at all for the flow of the server
Right now a bridge bot does heavy lifting for when Discord does piss off enough users to cause everybody to jump over
Matrix is terrible, disorganized and incredibly slow.
What part of Matrix is proprietary? It's not an app, instead, it's an open protocol that can be used by anyone to build a messaging app or host a server.
Matrix isn't proprietary, but effectively controlled by a single VC funded startup. We don't need a bloated re-invention of existing internet standards anyways. They should just make a better XMPP client.
VCs suck, but Matrix is open source, everyone can self-host their own server, write their own client or even fork the entire protocol.
Yes, but compatibility with existing internet standards is also important. For example you can't have end-to-end encryption if you use a non-standard protocol. VC startups like Matrix only increase fragmentation of the ecosystem.
Who defines standard internet protocols and how is XMPP one of them??? "Standard internet protocols" are DNS, HTTP, TLS, etc.
The organization is called the IETF. The XMPP core is defined in RFC 6120 and RFC 6121 like DNS, HTTP, etc. are defined in RFCs.
TIL that XMPP is defined in an RFC. You're correct, I wasn't aware of that. I really don't understand why the IETF take such a decision though. I don't know why these guys are defining high-level protocols for things like messaging at all.
But back to your earlier points:
For example you can't have end-to-end encryption if you use a non-standard protocol
This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Matrix has E2EE while using a "non-standard" protocol. So does Signal, in fact, it created the strongest E2EE protocol out there.
VC startups like Matrix only increase fragmentation of the ecosystem
Every new project that is created increases fragmentation. So does Revolt, Discord, Skype, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc. These all use "non-standard" protocols.
Also, the author of RFC 6120 is a Cisco employee, how is a multinational corporation better than a VC-funded startup? XMPP is an open standard, just like the Matrix protocol. It doesn't matter who created it.
There are lots of high-level standards for communication. You might have heard of email, its protocols are also defined by the IETF. For instant messaging it is XMPP.
This doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Matrix has E2EE while using a “non-standard” protocol.
You can only encrypt messages when the recipient happens to be a Matrix user too. If they use another protocol it's not possible. That's why we need standards and that's why building on existing internet standards is important as opposed to everyone cooking up their own IM protocol like Matrix does.
Every new project that is created increases fragmentation. So does Revolt, Discord, Skype, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc. These all use “non-standard” protocols.
Yes, they all increase fragmentation as they do not interoperate with one another. A standard would solve this problem.
Lot's of standards are written by people who work at large corporations. Also multiple experts from multiple corporations work together. Wasn't the original author of the XMPP protocol was hired after the fact by Cisco, precisely because he wrote XMPP and the first server implementation?
The IETF still has a much better track record than any single corporation or VC funded start-up.
Matrix and XMPP are in progress to support MLS, which is now accepted as an Internet standard for E2EE.
So encrypted messaging between chat protocols would be possible... Someday.
Being open source doesn't mean it's not proprietary
Do u mean in terms of licensing? GPL and such
That doesn't make any sense
Yes that's what I said.
it's a good message app, it's how I stay in contact with the person I asked for commission artwork. So you are wrong
Good may mean different things for different people. Lemmy user base are mostly those who outside of pure practical usage look at how service treats users.
Discord is an absolute piece of garbage, it's not a good messaging app, definitely not a good place to host a community (seriously, I don't understand why some communities saw Discord as an alternative after the Reddit API changes), and most importantly, it's spyware. The company doesn't have a business model and it was founded by a guy who is notorious for creating random shit that's not economically sustainable at all. I don't understand why anyone would use this shit. This video outlines everything that's wrong with Discord: https://youtube.com/watch?v=uvNkdAggUGU
Switch to Revolt or Matrix
The problem is convincing other people to switch as well. There's no point in me using Matrix if all of the people I want to communicate with only want to use Discord.
But hope this would be the last time we would need to do it.
I don't understand why Revolt decided to reinvent the wheel and not use Matrix. They could've been a great alternative server and/or UI.
Why don't you ask the Matrix team why they decided to re-invent XMPP and add a stupid HTTP API?
@onlinepersona
@netchami
Because they didn't reinvent xmpp, they reinvented Google Wave.
Arathorn on Feb 18, 2018 on HackerNews
I take it you weren't aware that Google Wave was based on XMPP.
https://www.networkworld.com/article/757722/opensource-subnet-nine-new-apps-that-show-off-the-power-of-google-wave.html
@onlinepersona
Thank you, I did not know that!
Very interesting.
Both XMPP and Matrix can be used for real-time messaging, but they are very different unerneath.
I agree
Sadly, can't get my server to make the jump. Doesn't help that Revolt is missing a few features and Matrix just... Doesn't work at all for the flow of the server
Right now a bridge bot does heavy lifting for when Discord does piss off enough users to cause everybody to jump over
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/watch?v=uvNkdAggUGU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Why switch from 1 proprietary app to another?
Matrix is terrible, disorganized and incredibly slow.
What part of Matrix is proprietary? It's not an app, instead, it's an open protocol that can be used by anyone to build a messaging app or host a server.
Matrix isn't proprietary, but effectively controlled by a single VC funded startup. We don't need a bloated re-invention of existing internet standards anyways. They should just make a better XMPP client.
VCs suck, but Matrix is open source, everyone can self-host their own server, write their own client or even fork the entire protocol.
Yes, but compatibility with existing internet standards is also important. For example you can't have end-to-end encryption if you use a non-standard protocol. VC startups like Matrix only increase fragmentation of the ecosystem.
Who defines standard internet protocols and how is XMPP one of them??? "Standard internet protocols" are DNS, HTTP, TLS, etc.
The organization is called the IETF. The XMPP core is defined in RFC 6120 and RFC 6121 like DNS, HTTP, etc. are defined in RFCs.
TIL that XMPP is defined in an RFC. You're correct, I wasn't aware of that. I really don't understand why the IETF take such a decision though. I don't know why these guys are defining high-level protocols for things like messaging at all.
But back to your earlier points:
This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Matrix has E2EE while using a "non-standard" protocol. So does Signal, in fact, it created the strongest E2EE protocol out there.
Every new project that is created increases fragmentation. So does Revolt, Discord, Skype, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc. These all use "non-standard" protocols.
Also, the author of RFC 6120 is a Cisco employee, how is a multinational corporation better than a VC-funded startup? XMPP is an open standard, just like the Matrix protocol. It doesn't matter who created it.
There are lots of high-level standards for communication. You might have heard of email, its protocols are also defined by the IETF. For instant messaging it is XMPP.
You can only encrypt messages when the recipient happens to be a Matrix user too. If they use another protocol it's not possible. That's why we need standards and that's why building on existing internet standards is important as opposed to everyone cooking up their own IM protocol like Matrix does.
Yes, they all increase fragmentation as they do not interoperate with one another. A standard would solve this problem.
Lot's of standards are written by people who work at large corporations. Also multiple experts from multiple corporations work together. Wasn't the original author of the XMPP protocol was hired after the fact by Cisco, precisely because he wrote XMPP and the first server implementation?
The IETF still has a much better track record than any single corporation or VC funded start-up.
Matrix and XMPP are in progress to support MLS, which is now accepted as an Internet standard for E2EE.
So encrypted messaging between chat protocols would be possible... Someday.
I was referring to Revolt
It isn't proprietary either
How is it not?
https://github.com/revoltchat
Being open source doesn't mean it's not proprietary
Do u mean in terms of licensing? GPL and such
That doesn't make any sense
Yes that's what I said.
it's a good message app, it's how I stay in contact with the person I asked for commission artwork. So you are wrong
Good may mean different things for different people. Lemmy user base are mostly those who outside of pure practical usage look at how service treats users.