Why are you upset about fcevs? If hydrogen works out, great, it's a sustainable vehicle with tremendous potential.
If not and Toyota switches to a larger BEV catalogue, great, they're sustainable vehicles with tremendous potential.
the problem most car manufacturers have is they focus too much on the car and not enough on the infrastructure. theres a big reason why Tesla became popular and one of its major reasons was its charging network, and why its NACS standard is going to eventually be the standard for car chargers overtime, despite all other conpanies initially supporting the open standard. None of them wanted to bite the bullet and equally invest into the infrastructure to charge. Hydrogen has the same exact problem, but even fewer players so there's even less players to take a shot at that investment.
Good point. Although I'm not a fan of Tesla's vehicles, their charging system is great and was a huge lobbying point for the aptera, the EV I'm most excited about
The numbers do not work for FCEVs unless fossil fuels are used which is what 100% of the hydrogen in the current supply line depends on. I know people like to think that we can just use the excess energy from wind farms or solar but that is nowhere near a viable solution.
Research into hydrogen vehicles is fine but it is a vast waste of resources for consumer vehicles. They have promise in other types of vehicles but it is silly to slow down investment in consumer BEVs to push for consumer FCEVs.
It was silly to slow down investment in EVs a hundred fifty years ago when they were developed, I'm perfectly willing to support people trying different potentially sustainable experimentats now that EVs have been established as the future
Let’s turn clean water — something already getting difficult to come by — into fuel! What could go wrong?
Is that where you think hydrogen comes from?
It's literally the most abundant element in the universe, present in many forms in, at this point, practically infinite amounts.
Most of it is harvested from natural gas these days.
It’s where “green” hydrogen comes from — which everyone keeps promoting as the future. People claim “oh we can just split water using electricity from solar wind and nuclear”. Not considering that it takes a lot of energy to do that. Energy that you’d get better bang for your buck by putting into batteries.
Oh. Well that's a silly distinction of them to make. Hydrogen is abundant and refining processes are constantly getting cleaner, especially these days, no worries.
[citation needed]
I am shocked at how few people know how abundant hydrogen is.
Here, this article explains how hydrogen makes up 75% of the universe we understand:
And can be used for hydrogen fuel cells regardless.
What is your specific stance?
As I've stated, I don't really care about hydrogen fuel cells, but you keep repeating vague information as if this is a standard debate that everybody has defined and understands what you're talking about.
What is your point here?
Do you just not understand that hydrogen is abundant, or do you not understand that it can be extracted from multiple sources for hydrogen fuel cells?
I'm leaning toward the latter because of how confused you sound about multiple sources of hydrogen fuel.
My point is simple.
Hydrogen derived from natural gas can not be used in fuel cells. Only hydrolysis hydrogen is viable.
It is one of 'many' reasons why hydrogen fuel will never be a thing.
Along with Hydrogen seeping through everything
Along with Hydrogen embrittlement
The energy efficiency loss to convert Solar/Wind/Nuc -> Hydrogen -> Mechanical or Solar/Wind/Nuc -> Hydrogen -> Electrical -> Mechanical
Will never be cost effective compared to Solar/Wind/Nuc -> Electrical(batt) -> Mechanical
Hydrogen has been known to man for a 1000 years, and yet
Gobal International WARS have been fought in the past century along with massive geopolitical maneuvering and trillions upon trillions of $$$ spent on the energy sector.
Do you really thing we'd be spending the $$$ we do for deep sea drilling if hydrogen was even close to being a viable resource?
No new technology has been developed that makes hydrogen useful. No. Fuel Cells are not it.
There just isn't enough energy gained by connecting Hydrogen -> Oxygen no matter what process you come up with.
Unless we find a way to fuse hydrogen together, hydrogen is a dead end and always has been.
SMR, a process by which hydrogen is derived from natural gas, accounts for 95 percent of today's refined hydrogen that can be used in fuel cells.
Why are you upset about fcevs? If hydrogen works out, great, it's a sustainable vehicle with tremendous potential.
If not and Toyota switches to a larger BEV catalogue, great, they're sustainable vehicles with tremendous potential.
the problem most car manufacturers have is they focus too much on the car and not enough on the infrastructure. theres a big reason why Tesla became popular and one of its major reasons was its charging network, and why its NACS standard is going to eventually be the standard for car chargers overtime, despite all other conpanies initially supporting the open standard. None of them wanted to bite the bullet and equally invest into the infrastructure to charge. Hydrogen has the same exact problem, but even fewer players so there's even less players to take a shot at that investment.
Good point. Although I'm not a fan of Tesla's vehicles, their charging system is great and was a huge lobbying point for the aptera, the EV I'm most excited about
The numbers do not work for FCEVs unless fossil fuels are used which is what 100% of the hydrogen in the current supply line depends on. I know people like to think that we can just use the excess energy from wind farms or solar but that is nowhere near a viable solution.
Research into hydrogen vehicles is fine but it is a vast waste of resources for consumer vehicles. They have promise in other types of vehicles but it is silly to slow down investment in consumer BEVs to push for consumer FCEVs.
It was silly to slow down investment in EVs a hundred fifty years ago when they were developed, I'm perfectly willing to support people trying different potentially sustainable experimentats now that EVs have been established as the future
Let’s turn clean water — something already getting difficult to come by — into fuel! What could go wrong?
Is that where you think hydrogen comes from?
It's literally the most abundant element in the universe, present in many forms in, at this point, practically infinite amounts.
Most of it is harvested from natural gas these days.
It’s where “green” hydrogen comes from — which everyone keeps promoting as the future. People claim “oh we can just split water using electricity from solar wind and nuclear”. Not considering that it takes a lot of energy to do that. Energy that you’d get better bang for your buck by putting into batteries.
Oh. Well that's a silly distinction of them to make. Hydrogen is abundant and refining processes are constantly getting cleaner, especially these days, no worries.
[citation needed]
I am shocked at how few people know how abundant hydrogen is.
Here, this article explains how hydrogen makes up 75% of the universe we understand:
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/what-is-hydrogen#:~:text=Hydrogen%20is%20a%20clean%20alternative,and%2C%20of%20course%2C%20humans.
You can't use natural gas hydrogen for a fuel cell.
They can't remove enough sulphur from it, and even a trace amount will destroy the fuel cell.
Here's several methods companies can produce viable hydrogen from natural gas:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-productioen-natural-gas-reforming
As well as a few other materials:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-fuel-basics
Nope those all contain trace hydrogen sulfide.
And can be used for hydrogen fuel cells regardless.
What is your specific stance?
As I've stated, I don't really care about hydrogen fuel cells, but you keep repeating vague information as if this is a standard debate that everybody has defined and understands what you're talking about.
What is your point here?
Do you just not understand that hydrogen is abundant, or do you not understand that it can be extracted from multiple sources for hydrogen fuel cells?
I'm leaning toward the latter because of how confused you sound about multiple sources of hydrogen fuel.
My point is simple.
Hydrogen derived from natural gas can not be used in fuel cells. Only hydrolysis hydrogen is viable.
It is one of 'many' reasons why hydrogen fuel will never be a thing.
Along with Hydrogen seeping through everything
Along with Hydrogen embrittlement
The energy efficiency loss to convert Solar/Wind/Nuc -> Hydrogen -> Mechanical or Solar/Wind/Nuc -> Hydrogen -> Electrical -> Mechanical
Will never be cost effective compared to Solar/Wind/Nuc -> Electrical(batt) -> Mechanical
Hydrogen has been known to man for a 1000 years, and yet
Gobal International WARS have been fought in the past century along with massive geopolitical maneuvering and trillions upon trillions of $$$ spent on the energy sector.
Do you really thing we'd be spending the $$$ we do for deep sea drilling if hydrogen was even close to being a viable resource?
No new technology has been developed that makes hydrogen useful. No. Fuel Cells are not it.
There just isn't enough energy gained by connecting Hydrogen -> Oxygen no matter what process you come up with.
Unless we find a way to fuse hydrogen together, hydrogen is a dead end and always has been.
SMR, a process by which hydrogen is derived from natural gas, accounts for 95 percent of today's refined hydrogen that can be used in fuel cells.
https://time.com/6098910/blue-hydrogen-emissions/
NGR partial oxidation -
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming
There are new hydrogen processing tech being worked on right now.
There are other ways of processing hydrogen.
Do you mean green hydrogen?
Because you keep saying "Hydrogen derived from natural gas can not be used in fuel cells" but must of hydrogen today is refined from natural gas.
I'm not big on hydrogen fuel cells, but your claim strays pretty far from the mark.