Red flag laws do help a bit and they are the only real tool we have. Even if you’re saving a tiny fraction of the lives you could with real enforcement, you gotta do something. There’s just no path to federal gun control now
Even if you’re saving a tiny fraction of the lives you could with real enforcement
I mean you're just ignoring the much larger group of individuals who this will undoubtedly be used to abuse.
Explain what you mean here. Who is abusing red flag laws?
Government officials. Most of these "red flag laws" have zero burden of proof.
That doesn't answer the question though, who is abusing them? I don't see a lot of stories of them being abused. Many require a family member or a direct threat to issue so the proof isnt "zero"
That doesn't answer the question though, who is abusing them?
I just answered that in the comment you replied to...
I don't see a lot of stories of them being abused.
All depends on where you get your news. CNN isn't going to report on this. In fact almost no one is going to report on this. Because it's boring and most people don't care.
Try typing "red flag law abuse" into your favorite search engine.
Many require a family member or a direct threat to issue so the proof isnt "zero"
That's the thing though I don't see any proof what you're saying is correct. Most ERPOs require proof or a statement from a family member (which is in most cases good evidence) so these do have judicial review.
Only a couple states rely on law enforcement only (Indiana and Florida). And outside of california all arms are supposed to be returned after 1 year which seems incredibly fair if somebody is off their meds or having a breakdown or something.
That's the thing though I don't see any proof what you're saying is correct.
I already addressed this. Please come back with something new.
Most ERPOs require proof
You already said that and I already said that many of them don't.
Yeah but you're lying
LOL okay, easy enough for you to just lie about that. Lot easier than actually putting together anything that resembles an argument.
Have you really never heard of the Black Panthers and similar groups? Those are the sorts of people these laws would be abused to disarm.
Exactly. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Today's congress would be needed for more sweeping reforms (not going to happen right now) and the judiciary on that side too (not going to happen for a long time). They're doing what they can. It isn't much, but it's what they can do.
Explain like I'm a European -- what are red flag laws, and how do they hold up against 2A?
what are red flag laws
The short version is one is banned from owning or possessing guns based on accusations from others. The accusation does not necessarily need to be of a crime nor does evidence need to be provided. The accusation simply needs to be a 'red flag' (a term which means many different things in different areas). A common one is accusing one of being likely to commit a crime in the future.
how do they hold up against 2A
They are not likely to fail a 2A challenge as the 5A challenge will be much easier to argue for a defendant. Barring one from exercising a right who has not been convicted of a crime is basically guaranteed to fail a 5A challenge.
and they are the only real tool we have
Because when people give a common sense recommendation for more tools, some people want to insist we can't do anything new...
Like, do you just not understand what people mean when they say:
We need more gun control
Because it's a real basic sentence....
There’s just no path to federal gun control now
Just give up without trying because it's not guaranteed to work...
Fucking trump banned bumpstocks on a whim, but when it's a Dem in charge suddenly anything being accomplished is impossible. That shit gets old quick.
Biden can do things, he's just so obsessed with getting Republicans to vote for him that he won't.
They just tried to remove the speaker for passing a fuckin budget dude. They’d kidnap his children and murder them on a livestream if he agreed to gun control. That’s the MAGA reality. They’re radicals.
We can't do anything about gun violence because people with guns will use violence...
You're basically arguing that not only do we negotiate with terrorists, we have to endanger everyone else to keep the terrorists happy
Did you never learn how it worked out when people tried to appease nazis?
Spoilers: they never stay appeased long.
Walk me through the math on gun control. Which GOP reps will support it in the house and senate? Tell me their names. I’ll assume that all dems and independents will go along with it
In 2021 Dems controlled the House, Senate, and presidency... It wasn't till 2023 the Republicans had the House.
So why do you assume it wasn't done during those two years?
Walk me through the Senate math as to how they could have achieved the 60 votes in 2021 then
Why does it need 60 votes to require background checks on private sales or a gun registry?
Because of the Senate rules?
Mate, if I'm going to have to keep guessing what you're talking about and you can't string 10 words together to explain, this ain't gonna be productive...
Mate, if you don’t know how the Senate works, this isn’t gonna be productive…
Red flag laws do help a bit and they are the only real tool we have. Even if you’re saving a tiny fraction of the lives you could with real enforcement, you gotta do something. There’s just no path to federal gun control now
I mean you're just ignoring the much larger group of individuals who this will undoubtedly be used to abuse.
Explain what you mean here. Who is abusing red flag laws?
Government officials. Most of these "red flag laws" have zero burden of proof.
That doesn't answer the question though, who is abusing them? I don't see a lot of stories of them being abused. Many require a family member or a direct threat to issue so the proof isnt "zero"
I just answered that in the comment you replied to...
All depends on where you get your news. CNN isn't going to report on this. In fact almost no one is going to report on this. Because it's boring and most people don't care.
Try typing "red flag law abuse" into your favorite search engine.
And many of them don't.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/red-flag-laws-constitutionality-and-enforcement-of-extreme-risk-protection-orders.html
That's the thing though I don't see any proof what you're saying is correct. Most ERPOs require proof or a statement from a family member (which is in most cases good evidence) so these do have judicial review.
Only a couple states rely on law enforcement only (Indiana and Florida). And outside of california all arms are supposed to be returned after 1 year which seems incredibly fair if somebody is off their meds or having a breakdown or something.
I already addressed this. Please come back with something new.
You already said that and I already said that many of them don't.
Yeah but you're lying
LOL okay, easy enough for you to just lie about that. Lot easier than actually putting together anything that resembles an argument.
Have you really never heard of the Black Panthers and similar groups? Those are the sorts of people these laws would be abused to disarm.
Exactly. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Today's congress would be needed for more sweeping reforms (not going to happen right now) and the judiciary on that side too (not going to happen for a long time). They're doing what they can. It isn't much, but it's what they can do.
Explain like I'm a European -- what are red flag laws, and how do they hold up against 2A?
The short version is one is banned from owning or possessing guns based on accusations from others. The accusation does not necessarily need to be of a crime nor does evidence need to be provided. The accusation simply needs to be a 'red flag' (a term which means many different things in different areas). A common one is accusing one of being likely to commit a crime in the future.
They are not likely to fail a 2A challenge as the 5A challenge will be much easier to argue for a defendant. Barring one from exercising a right who has not been convicted of a crime is basically guaranteed to fail a 5A challenge.
Because when people give a common sense recommendation for more tools, some people want to insist we can't do anything new...
Like, do you just not understand what people mean when they say:
Because it's a real basic sentence....
Just give up without trying because it's not guaranteed to work...
Fucking trump banned bumpstocks on a whim, but when it's a Dem in charge suddenly anything being accomplished is impossible. That shit gets old quick.
Biden can do things, he's just so obsessed with getting Republicans to vote for him that he won't.
They just tried to remove the speaker for passing a fuckin budget dude. They’d kidnap his children and murder them on a livestream if he agreed to gun control. That’s the MAGA reality. They’re radicals.
You're basically arguing that not only do we negotiate with terrorists, we have to endanger everyone else to keep the terrorists happy
Did you never learn how it worked out when people tried to appease nazis?
Spoilers: they never stay appeased long.
Walk me through the math on gun control. Which GOP reps will support it in the house and senate? Tell me their names. I’ll assume that all dems and independents will go along with it
In 2021 Dems controlled the House, Senate, and presidency... It wasn't till 2023 the Republicans had the House.
So why do you assume it wasn't done during those two years?
Walk me through the Senate math as to how they could have achieved the 60 votes in 2021 then
Why does it need 60 votes to require background checks on private sales or a gun registry?
Because of the Senate rules?
Mate, if I'm going to have to keep guessing what you're talking about and you can't string 10 words together to explain, this ain't gonna be productive...
Mate, if you don’t know how the Senate works, this isn’t gonna be productive…
@jeffw @givesomefucks
I usually bring peanuts and cigarettes to throw at them. That is how it works if I recall.