Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Just scream "vote blue no matter who" at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I'm sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we're fucked anyway. Even if you're optimistic and say "No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!" Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That's right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let's get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can't "vote blue no matter who" those types, they'll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We're nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that's why things like Malcolm X's quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it's like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that's a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there's a path forward through the democratic party, it's eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don't think 'progressive issues' like 'stop killing the environment before we all die' have the time necessary to go the same route that's been taken from Malcolm X to now.
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it's far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I'm all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn't change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can't be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the "moderates and liberals" are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what's at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can't comprehend the game you're even trying to threaten. I don't buy into argument that it's "fascism now or later," — for that remains entirely speculative.
You clearly didn't read my original comment.
I did.
I re-read it.
I still disagree with the conclusion.
Okay. Then verbalize those disagreements in the context of my arguments so I don't have to repeat myself.
For example
I don’t buy into argument that it’s “fascism now or later,” — for that remains entirely speculative.
How? If they won't compromise with leftists and progressives now they won't compromise when leftists and progressives start dominating primaries. I said this in my original comment.
I'm pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden's position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it's clearly not.
I'm not really integrated in hypotheticals insomuch as the reality at hand: this is election year. The primaries are over. Biden had moved on the issue of Israel already. And we (as well as Ukraine and Palestine) cannot afford as a nation to go through another 4 years.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn't shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
I’m pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden’s position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it’s clearly not.
This is your idea of compromise? Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn’t shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
I can't. If you're right you're right. But I'll be voting 3rd party. I won't be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren't morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I'm not either.
Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
It's funny you reply to that but have still managed to dodge my question to you directly related to this... Twice. How convenient.
I'm beginning to feel you're not discussing in good faith.
I can't. If you're right you're right. But I'll be voting 3rd party. I won't be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren't morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I'm not either.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power. Literally Republicans bankroll your 3rd party candidates including the Green Party to attract folks like you and you fall for the bait. I legitimately have to wonder how old you are simply because these are eerily reminiscent to arguments made from someone sub-22-years-old and witnessing their first maybe second election cycle since turning voting age.
Whatever. If you're voting 3rd party, that's too far gone for me to commit any further than I care to. I might as well talk to a Trump supporter.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power.
There's that double standard.
Thank you for admitting one doesn't understand the mathematical end-result of FPTP, or what spoiler vote is.
I take it I wasn't too far off the mark on the age, either.
Thank you for admitting one doesn’t understand the mathematical end-result of FPTP, or what spoiler vote is.
That applies just as well to people who would refuse to vote for Biden if he cuts off weapon shipments. You're trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard.
This country was founded under genocide and fascism and continues to this day. We still have legalized slavery that we support every time we buy tomatoes at the grocery store as well as our tax dollars. Anti-protest legislation and weaponry are being pushed every single year so much that you can now be considered a domestic terrorist if you protest on a road or pipeline depending on the state. We are relatively comfortable as a direct result of us taking advantage of the global south and continued colonialism projects. The more the unsustainable status-quo is extended, the more people will want to burn shit to the ground because they're seeing their friends and family struggling with absolutely no help from a government that would rather bomb brown kids and bail out corporations and practice insider trading than help them out. They are having to choose to never have children and never own a home because of the status quo. Thinking voting in the same system that got us into this mess will fix it is naive. Should trump even be allowed to run if we were a real democracy? Should citizens get any say in if we're perpetuating a genocide if we were a real democracy? If you think voting for biden will "save democracy", you obviously think we have more time than we actually have.
Voting 3rd party is an answer to the wrong question. The question of "how do we fight off fascism" can't be solved at the ballot box, and it can't be solved by someone who refuses to treat threats of fascism harshly and swiftly or even help bolster defenses against it. Voting for someone who is trying their hardest to lose this election isn't going to fix this. Voting 3rd party isn't going to fix this. Being convinced that the government will be our saviors against themselves means you only need to be engaged in politics when it's time to vote. Get to know your neighbors. Physically defend the most vulnerable against those who are willing to "just follow orders" from a fascist government (state or federal). Sabotage and protest and strike until the capitalists and government start bleeding money and are willing to operate in good faith. If you think that's too much work, go ahead and vote for biden and blame leftists when he inevitably loses. Fascism is already here, but it might start affecting you soon.
Then they're shit at their jobs. This is public research polling, which usually lags behind internal private research.
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you're going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you're illegally sending arms to.
Isn't that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it's working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he'd be done for. There's no suddenly stopping the inertia we've had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they're "shit at their jobs"? It's a cute, confident thing to say... But if you're really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What's more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel's actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn't share the same popularity. I wouldn't want to be in Biden's position or his strategists.
Any advisor that would lie to the president is a bad advisor. That's a ridiculous thing to argue over. That's not my ego, or me thinking I'm better.
And yes when Israel crosses the line the military aid becomes illegal. There's no exception for "we've been doing it for so long".
Any proof of these lies?
It's a response to what you said. Read the thread if you need context. I'm not going to restate it for you.
Sorry I just don't get what "lie" you're referring to. Anyways, I'm getting nothing of value from this conversation.
Just scream "vote blue no matter who" at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I'm sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we're fucked anyway. Even if you're optimistic and say "No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!" Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That's right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let's get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can't "vote blue no matter who" those types, they'll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We're nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that's why things like Malcolm X's quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it's like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that's a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there's a path forward through the democratic party, it's eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don't think 'progressive issues' like 'stop killing the environment before we all die' have the time necessary to go the same route that's been taken from Malcolm X to now.
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it's far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I'm all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn't change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can't be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the "moderates and liberals" are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what's at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can't comprehend the game you're even trying to threaten. I don't buy into argument that it's "fascism now or later," — for that remains entirely speculative.
You clearly didn't read my original comment.
I did.
I re-read it.
I still disagree with the conclusion.
Okay. Then verbalize those disagreements in the context of my arguments so I don't have to repeat myself.
For example
How? If they won't compromise with leftists and progressives now they won't compromise when leftists and progressives start dominating primaries. I said this in my original comment.
I'm pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden's position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it's clearly not.
I'm not really integrated in hypotheticals insomuch as the reality at hand: this is election year. The primaries are over. Biden had moved on the issue of Israel already. And we (as well as Ukraine and Palestine) cannot afford as a nation to go through another 4 years.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn't shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
This is your idea of compromise? Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
I can't. If you're right you're right. But I'll be voting 3rd party. I won't be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren't morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I'm not either.
It's funny you reply to that but have still managed to dodge my question to you directly related to this... Twice. How convenient.
I'm beginning to feel you're not discussing in good faith.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power. Literally Republicans bankroll your 3rd party candidates including the Green Party to attract folks like you and you fall for the bait. I legitimately have to wonder how old you are simply because these are eerily reminiscent to arguments made from someone sub-22-years-old and witnessing their first maybe second election cycle since turning voting age.
Whatever. If you're voting 3rd party, that's too far gone for me to commit any further than I care to. I might as well talk to a Trump supporter.
There's that double standard.
Thank you for admitting one doesn't understand the mathematical end-result of FPTP, or what spoiler vote is.
I take it I wasn't too far off the mark on the age, either.
That applies just as well to people who would refuse to vote for Biden if he cuts off weapon shipments. You're trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard.
This country was founded under genocide and fascism and continues to this day. We still have legalized slavery that we support every time we buy tomatoes at the grocery store as well as our tax dollars. Anti-protest legislation and weaponry are being pushed every single year so much that you can now be considered a domestic terrorist if you protest on a road or pipeline depending on the state. We are relatively comfortable as a direct result of us taking advantage of the global south and continued colonialism projects. The more the unsustainable status-quo is extended, the more people will want to burn shit to the ground because they're seeing their friends and family struggling with absolutely no help from a government that would rather bomb brown kids and bail out corporations and practice insider trading than help them out. They are having to choose to never have children and never own a home because of the status quo. Thinking voting in the same system that got us into this mess will fix it is naive. Should trump even be allowed to run if we were a real democracy? Should citizens get any say in if we're perpetuating a genocide if we were a real democracy? If you think voting for biden will "save democracy", you obviously think we have more time than we actually have.
Voting 3rd party is an answer to the wrong question. The question of "how do we fight off fascism" can't be solved at the ballot box, and it can't be solved by someone who refuses to treat threats of fascism harshly and swiftly or even help bolster defenses against it. Voting for someone who is trying their hardest to lose this election isn't going to fix this. Voting 3rd party isn't going to fix this. Being convinced that the government will be our saviors against themselves means you only need to be engaged in politics when it's time to vote. Get to know your neighbors. Physically defend the most vulnerable against those who are willing to "just follow orders" from a fascist government (state or federal). Sabotage and protest and strike until the capitalists and government start bleeding money and are willing to operate in good faith. If you think that's too much work, go ahead and vote for biden and blame leftists when he inevitably loses. Fascism is already here, but it might start affecting you soon.
Then they're shit at their jobs. This is public research polling, which usually lags behind internal private research.
Gallup Link
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you're going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you're illegally sending arms to.
Isn't that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it's working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he'd be done for. There's no suddenly stopping the inertia we've had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they're "shit at their jobs"? It's a cute, confident thing to say... But if you're really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What's more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel's actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn't share the same popularity. I wouldn't want to be in Biden's position or his strategists.
Any advisor that would lie to the president is a bad advisor. That's a ridiculous thing to argue over. That's not my ego, or me thinking I'm better.
And yes when Israel crosses the line the military aid becomes illegal. There's no exception for "we've been doing it for so long".
Any proof of these lies?
It's a response to what you said. Read the thread if you need context. I'm not going to restate it for you.
Sorry I just don't get what "lie" you're referring to. Anyways, I'm getting nothing of value from this conversation.