Wrote this before and I'll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that's the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn't just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn't hear the words, "indiscriminate bombing" from Trump's facial sphincter.
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
So the choices are siding with genocide, and merely being accused of being pro-Hamas?
Seems like a clear choice, since accusations of being pro-Hamas get flung around for merely wanting to genocide Palestinians just more slowly.
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
Vote for genocide, because if you don’t there’s gonna be more genocide. Y’all doing backflips to cover your violent beliefs.
Ah yes, that's a completely accurate and fair description of the choice at hand and totally 100% not an obvious straw-man fallacy, leaving aside the cute little purity pyrrhic victory you're setting yourself up for.
It’s very easy for me to be against genocide. Seems hard for you. 🤷🏼♂️
I'm completely for being against genocide!
I'm just forward-thinking and very much against it for the next 4 years, let alone next 8 months. Some people see a few more chess-moves ahead than others, I guess. Seems hard for you.
actually,there wouldn't be anymore genocide had the 2 state solution been accepted.
i mean to hamas, peace is shit but death is an honor.
It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s
This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide
Arguably this is because he didn't ignore the Bosniak genocide but then NATO was criticized for getting involved.
It's my personal belief that we should intervene militarily to stop genocides, but there's influential "leftist" thinkers who seem to disagree. Some will still say the US shouldn't have gotten involved with Kosovo, and I believe Chomsky notoriously denied the Cambodian genocide was even happening.
Of course, the right answer is to say fuck these people and get involved anyway. We shouldn't bow to political disagreement when it comes to stopping genocides.
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
Oh so then genocide is okay as long as it let's you win an election?
Way to completely miss the point. Impressive, really.
There wasn't a point. It was a denial that anything need to be done because the data says electoral politics are more important than stopping another genocide.
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican if anything happened to Israel, which is also ridiculous to say while asking for data driven anything.
Even if Biden withdrew all aid to Israel, the genocide persists. So, now what?
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican i
There you go again with the straw-man fallacies. What's heavily ironic about this is I've heard ad nauseum about the 160,000 Palestinian Americans and what they might do should Biden not change his position. I already gave the PEW data indicating a sizable chunk of those 8 million are indeed supportive of Israel and no matter how you cut it, there's a greater risk to Biden's reelection.
But moreover think about just how short-sighted your thinking is here. Even if Biden stops the aid now and it backfires for Biden's reelection, then Trump gets in — where will you be? Will you be celebrating and patting yourself on the back because Biden shot himself in the foot while Trump steamrolls Palestinians?
I think you just might.
Got it. You are okay with genocide as long as it gets to a electoral victory.
There ya go with those strawman fallacies, again!
Such a strong fighter for these 8 months. Yet don't seem to care whatsoever about the consequences for Palestinians (or Ukrainians for that matter) for the next 4 years. How curious.
I thought you hated strawman arguments?
And now we're too the any criticism of Biden means they're for Trump. Way to get 2 in one there.
Plus still haven't seen your source on how the entire Jewish population in the country are okay with Israels handling of Palestinians and the whole genocide they're doing.
Well then my mistake; for sure: Be critical of Biden all you want. I don't agree with you on what's strategically better for ensuring his reelection but so be it.
All I care is that you vote for Biden in November. Anything short of that is equivalent to being for Trump.
Also, my bad - it was from another comment chain here:
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it's orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
... But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats' chances then...?
Got it you just don't like people pointing out Bidens flaws.
In total, 1,941 Jewish and 414 Muslim respondents participated in this survey.
I mean yeah totally fair to use it as representative population but not like pew research is the best, or polls have been very accurate in the last few years.
And again you can't say
7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
When thats more than the entire population in the states (and surprisingly more than the population of Israel)
Finally let's suppose all of the Jewish people are going to be mad at Biden for stopping support of Israel due to them committing genocide, who would they vote for? They'd have the same issue as everyone else and have to bite their tongue and vote for Biden.
But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats' chances then...?
At this point who cares about Israel? It's clear they aren't making Jewish people safer, and those who would participate in the election are Americans
Got it you just don’t like people pointing out Bidens flaws.
Incorrect. I just don't like people shooting themselves in the foot or having tunnel-vision without seeing the bigger picture.
but not like pew research is the best, or polls have been very accurate in the last few years.
hahahah what the hell are you saying? You think PEW is flawed? Do tell how. Do you even understand how statistics work? I bet you didn't even look at their methodology let alone MoE.
When thats more than the entire population in the states (and surprisingly more than the population of Israel)
Who cares? Whether it's 6.7 million "by some estimates," or 7.6 million "by some estimates." — that in no way changes my point, but good on you for digging in the weeds out of complete irrelevance.
Finally let’s suppose all of the Jewish people are going to be mad at Biden for stopping support of Israel due to them committing genocide, who would they vote for? They’d have the same issue as everyone else and have to bite their tongue and vote for Biden.
Well now we've come full-circle. The same question can be posed to Biden by his staff by asking, "What will tankies and the left do, vote for Trump? Not vote? Vote 3rd party? See how that worked out for their agenda when literally every progressive advancement came on the backs of the Democratic party and every reversal thereof came from Republicans." So between the two groups, which will Biden choose to risk less, the bigger voting population, or the smaller voting population?
Unfortunately there are a lot of swing-voters out there, too, who haven't had their minds made up. Until they fall into a camp, the Biden administration is going to toe the line to ensure such voters are still reachable.
At this point who cares about Israel? It’s clear they aren’t making Jewish people safer, and those who would participate in the election are Americans
Not talking about Israel. I'm talking about the relentless propaganda campaign about, "How Biden is an antisemite and jeopardized the safety of Jewish people of Israel by taking away their self-defense." This would be repeated across all right-wing outlets, not to mention the massive amount of foreign interference that is already occurring by Israeli and Russian operatives.
It's intentional. Best guess is these are either wedge-driving trolls, or very young and naive sub-20-year-olds full of idealism but lacking a particular degree of foresight.
Yes anyone who disagrees must be young or a troll. Great rebuttal there
If they dodge the arguments presented and double-down with bullshit accusations and shitty obvious strawman fallacies, then yes, absofuckinglutely.
Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than an election. If LBJ had taken your advice, Civil Rights would never have happened in America.
A brilliant political analyst, Johnson foresaw the consequences of his civil rights legislation on the day he signed it into law. He is said to have remarked: “We’ve lost the south for a generation.” historical data
Apples and oranges in my view; for Is there any law that Biden can sign right now?
Is there anything Biden can do right now that won't be immediately reversed by Trump and orders-of-magnitude worse?
Hence why under these circumstances, in my opinion, following the polling data and ensuring election is paramount.
In the meantime we should all be focused not on criticizing Biden but targeting the pro-Israeli voters and trying to sway them. If you change them, the polling changes, and so too will Biden's position.
And ultimately that's exactly what we've seen over the last couple of months.
You’d sell your mother into slavery to get Biden elected, that much is obvious. You have no moral framework for any of your so-called “principles,” your only concern is winning. Which is precisely how we got to this point after the third-way Democrats compromised with neoliberalism by allowing corporate donations to dominate their party. Compromising your humanity by settling with the lesser evil is still evil.
Hahaha I'm sorry, what? Now you're just going off the deep end.
I'd rather ensure my mother doesn't live with Trump as president for another 4 years. It's not good for her blood pressure.
Unfortunately you just seem far too short-sighted to comprehend the big picture, here. You'd rather manufacture purity tests for the Democrats even if that means holding the door open for literal evil. Classic pyrrhic victory.
Lambast Democrats all you want. Yet Every Single progressive advancement we've had in this country has come through the Democratic party.
I’m not saying to not vote for Biden to prevent the fascism of Trump. I will. And I have to make peace with that, if I can. But I’m not gonna lie to myself and others to justify this administrations actions regarding Palestine. Genocide should never be condoned, even for poll numbers.
I entirely sympathize with that and think this is a very grounded comment. From my view I feel Democrats are losing the information war and our ties to Israel are too deep to just uproot overnight without disastrous consequences.
I weigh the pros/cons of: Biden cutting all ties and aid overnight with Israel versus the risk to popularity and losing the election and handing the keys to Trump. Put another way: if this wasn't election season and polls weren't this tight, I think Biden would've dropped Israel much faster and absorbed the risk. (sort of like withdrawing from Afghanistan far away from an election).
It is imperative every one of us keep pushing against the Israeli narrative so we alter the polling in favor of walking away from Israel.
with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel
This is false, they are split and it's much fewer votes to be lost. Maybe none, maybe even some gained.
I'd love your source, because PEW suggests otherwise.
No source, just personal experience. Older people are split, younger people all against Israel (in these events). That's about my relatives from the Jewish side in the US.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Just scream "vote blue no matter who" at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I'm sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we're fucked anyway. Even if you're optimistic and say "No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!" Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That's right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let's get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can't "vote blue no matter who" those types, they'll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We're nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that's why things like Malcolm X's quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it's like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that's a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there's a path forward through the democratic party, it's eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don't think 'progressive issues' like 'stop killing the environment before we all die' have the time necessary to go the same route that's been taken from Malcolm X to now.
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it's far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I'm all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn't change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can't be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the "moderates and liberals" are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what's at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can't comprehend the game you're even trying to threaten. I don't buy into argument that it's "fascism now or later," — for that remains entirely speculative.
You clearly didn't read my original comment.
I did.
I re-read it.
I still disagree with the conclusion.
Okay. Then verbalize those disagreements in the context of my arguments so I don't have to repeat myself.
For example
I don’t buy into argument that it’s “fascism now or later,” — for that remains entirely speculative.
How? If they won't compromise with leftists and progressives now they won't compromise when leftists and progressives start dominating primaries. I said this in my original comment.
I'm pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden's position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it's clearly not.
I'm not really integrated in hypotheticals insomuch as the reality at hand: this is election year. The primaries are over. Biden had moved on the issue of Israel already. And we (as well as Ukraine and Palestine) cannot afford as a nation to go through another 4 years.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn't shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
I’m pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden’s position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it’s clearly not.
This is your idea of compromise? Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn’t shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
I can't. If you're right you're right. But I'll be voting 3rd party. I won't be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren't morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I'm not either.
Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
It's funny you reply to that but have still managed to dodge my question to you directly related to this... Twice. How convenient.
I'm beginning to feel you're not discussing in good faith.
I can't. If you're right you're right. But I'll be voting 3rd party. I won't be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren't morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I'm not either.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power. Literally Republicans bankroll your 3rd party candidates including the Green Party to attract folks like you and you fall for the bait. I legitimately have to wonder how old you are simply because these are eerily reminiscent to arguments made from someone sub-22-years-old and witnessing their first maybe second election cycle since turning voting age.
Whatever. If you're voting 3rd party, that's too far gone for me to commit any further than I care to. I might as well talk to a Trump supporter.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power.
There's that double standard.
Thank you for admitting one doesn't understand the mathematical end-result of FPTP, or what spoiler vote is.
I take it I wasn't too far off the mark on the age, either.
This country was founded under genocide and fascism and continues to this day. We still have legalized slavery that we support every time we buy tomatoes at the grocery store as well as our tax dollars. Anti-protest legislation and weaponry are being pushed every single year so much that you can now be considered a domestic terrorist if you protest on a road or pipeline depending on the state. We are relatively comfortable as a direct result of us taking advantage of the global south and continued colonialism projects. The more the unsustainable status-quo is extended, the more people will want to burn shit to the ground because they're seeing their friends and family struggling with absolutely no help from a government that would rather bomb brown kids and bail out corporations and practice insider trading than help them out. They are having to choose to never have children and never own a home because of the status quo. Thinking voting in the same system that got us into this mess will fix it is naive. Should trump even be allowed to run if we were a real democracy? Should citizens get any say in if we're perpetuating a genocide if we were a real democracy? If you think voting for biden will "save democracy", you obviously think we have more time than we actually have.
Voting 3rd party is an answer to the wrong question. The question of "how do we fight off fascism" can't be solved at the ballot box, and it can't be solved by someone who refuses to treat threats of fascism harshly and swiftly or even help bolster defenses against it. Voting for someone who is trying their hardest to lose this election isn't going to fix this. Voting 3rd party isn't going to fix this. Being convinced that the government will be our saviors against themselves means you only need to be engaged in politics when it's time to vote. Get to know your neighbors. Physically defend the most vulnerable against those who are willing to "just follow orders" from a fascist government (state or federal). Sabotage and protest and strike until the capitalists and government start bleeding money and are willing to operate in good faith. If you think that's too much work, go ahead and vote for biden and blame leftists when he inevitably loses. Fascism is already here, but it might start affecting you soon.
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you're going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you're illegally sending arms to.
Isn't that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it's working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he'd be done for. There's no suddenly stopping the inertia we've had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they're "shit at their jobs"? It's a cute, confident thing to say... But if you're really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What's more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel's actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn't share the same popularity. I wouldn't want to be in Biden's position or his strategists.
Any advisor that would lie to the president is a bad advisor. That's a ridiculous thing to argue over. That's not my ego, or me thinking I'm better.
And yes when Israel crosses the line the military aid becomes illegal. There's no exception for "we've been doing it for so long".
Any proof of these lies?
It's a response to what you said. Read the thread if you need context. I'm not going to restate it for you.
Sorry I just don't get what "lie" you're referring to. Anyways, I'm getting nothing of value from this conversation.
It would not be the end for Biden. That's hyperbole. Also why are we pressuring anti genocide people to come out and vote regardless, but taking it for granted that pro genocide people can't be pressured at all.
You know who you're never going to get to vote for Biden again? The Muslim communities that are actually in mourning right now because they know people dying in Gaza. The same ones that are key voting groups in the Rust Belt. Which is the same area that Trump used to win in 2016.
The Republicans are already calling him terrorist pedophile. Doing something to stop the GOP from running baseless attack ads is useless.
The only one trying to lose this election is Biden. There are legions of progressives ready to hold their noses and vote for him. But he keeps running to the right. And we'll keep staying home.
You're saying he'd be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can't agree with that. He'd be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn't just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He's doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He's completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he'd be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn't any more that needs to be said. It's holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
Yup so hard. So many hard words like, "here's those bombs you wanted."
These are his 'only' choices only because identifying the broader issue of Israeli occupation and settlement (the core complaints of Palestinians and the reason why Hamas exists) puts at risk US interests in the region - namely Israel's projection of strength throughout the middle east.
The protection of US neo-colonial and imperial interests is the reason why Biden is in a tough position, and the reason why leftists will never be satisfied by stern words by Biden.
Oh no, he will be accused of being pro-Hamas. Just like when you criritize him you are accused of being pro-Trump, or if you critize evil NATO countries are doing, you are called pro-Russian.
If people are that stupid to not see this clear tactic that everyone who critiques me must support my enemies, then you should maybe they shouldn't use the same tactic when it suits them.
It's a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift... As has already occurred.
I don't give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they're voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you're smarter.
Except that the voting uncommitted has actually worked to move Biden on the issue (Dems calling for an election in Israel).
Has it? The real issue convincing those who are undecided or supportive of Israeli action; it's less to do with the minority progressives threatening to not vote because everyone knows progressives will hold their nose. But it's the swing-voter moderates and centrists who are less informed on the issues and easily-swayable by political talking-points — and who make up a far larger chunk of the electorate — that Biden is concerned about. When 1/3 are unsure if Israel is committing genocide and 1/3 say they're not, that is a problem.
It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
It is clear as day that the only thing actually making Biden think twice about unconditionally supporting the mass slaughter of Palestinians is that he might actually lose the election because his opinions are so unpopular and brutal on the Palestinian genocide.
Right now is THE TIME to grind everything about the Democratic Party to a halt until Biden gets the message that halting the supply of weapons to an ongoing genocide is a non-negotiable aspect of getting leftist (and muslim) voters. He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
As I've repeatedly pointed out, the problem is this can only go so far before it works against him. All Democrats are doing is splitting his attention between two groups — and if he pivots too much to one side, he risks alienating an arguably even LARGER group of voters.
So as I said, the best bet is to focus not on finger-wagging to Biden, but finger-wagging to the actual Pro-Israelis and undecided (who are 1/3 of the electorate). Thus if you want to continue influencing Biden, continue influencing the polls themselves and Biden will reflect that.
He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
I think it's just the opposite. I think similar to the Afghan withdrawal once an election has passed he will take a very Anti-Israeli stance while amplifying his support for Ukraine as well.
He had no issues welcoming Nikki Haley voters to become part of his base probably because he knows how hard this election will be to win without the help of progressives and leftists. But he chose to move right instead of left, so he shouldn't be surprised when people start treating him like a 2000s era republican.
How has he moved right? Welcoming Haley voters is a sound strategy that is not mutually-exclusive to moving left, which he absolutely has on the topic of Israel.
Welcoming Haley voters is moving right. Defunding the UNRWA is moving right. The spending bill he was happy to sign still sends billions to Israel. Also, in that bill, it would limit aid to the Palestinian Authority if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.” Biden being more than willing to sign a "snitches get stitches" bill, bullying the rest of the world into letting Israel do whatever they want surely isn't moving left.
Tell me, what policy change has Biden made to appeal to Haley voters?
I suppose you've heard that old adage of "if a person sits at a table with 9 nazis, there are 10 nazis at the table". When trump welcomed the proud boys to his campaign, I had no doubt in my mind he was willing to cooperate with them to enact policy that would strengthen his coalition, and I feel the same about Biden with Haley Voters. It doesn't help your case that he's already pretty conservative to begin with.
I suppose you've heard that old adage of, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." After all, we sort of utilized that during WWII to fight the nazis,
So he hasn't moved his policies whatsoever for Haley voters; he's only appealing to never-Trump voters in order to ensure the real fascist doesn't get elected. You following?
Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas. We could likely go on with these in perpetuity. Also, a lot of Nazis were friends of the US considering Operation Paperclip happened.
Also, why would Biden need to move his policies if he's pretty conservative to begin with? More oil drilling than when trump was president. Horrible border policy. Strike busting. No protections against all the bigoted state level laws. No Supreme Court packing. No nominations for an attorney general who would actually prevent trump from rising to power again (likely because trump is probably the only person Biden even has a chance of beating in an election). Green energy initiatives that are so poorly thought out that it now costs more to install solar than before. Wanting to sign a bill to remove a competing social media platform under the supervision of Musk and Zuckerberg. Bypassing congress to send arms to Israel to support a genocide purely to acquire land to compete with china's new trade route.
Biden is willing to become a hawkish republican to win on the democrat ticket and to be seen as "strong" to would-be republican voters because he knows he's lost the left. If you're okay with the US continually walking right with every democrat and running right with every republican, just keep doing what you're doing.
And yet, you act as though the better alternative was not sleeping with the dogs and letting the Nazis win?
Which outcome would you have preferred? Think ahead here, my friend.
Also, why would Biden need to move his policies if he’s pretty conservative to begin with?
I'm simply responding to the notion that Biden is "moving right" by appealing to Haley voters. I've still yet to see any evidence whatsoever of this claim. Inviting Haley voters into a preestablished structure isn't "moving right." Saying Biden is conservative to begin with != "moving right." One is a present state; the other is a transitioning state that has yet to be evidenced in any capacity.
They don't shift policies, they shift marketing. They will continue to support Israel because they are treating you with Trump and you have to vote for them whatever they do. So change is never going to happen.
Either vote third party or don't waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections.
Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
Ladies and gentlemen, a wedge-driving operative seeking to undermine Democrats and get Trump into office. There is literally zero evidence that "Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats". There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office — and Ukrainians and Palestinians would much prefer Biden over Trump any day.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
false dichotomy. they may be familiar with the political system (even more than you or i), and not believe the same things you do. they may be a leftist. you are making up attacks on their person instead of dealing with the substance of their claims.
No, commie (username), I'm simply grounded in reality.
that's a thought-terminating cliche like saying it's common sense. if you can't support your position, that's no reason to go off attacking other people as malevolent or incompetent.
My original statements remain largely untouched; it's not my issue you deflected the aforementioned points. Why proceed further?
you deflected the aforementioned points.
this is ambiguous. what do you mean?
Please go back and read more closely; I'd rather not repeat myself.
if you can't use clear syntax, repeating yourself will do no good.
There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office
no such evidence is possible: you can't prove a counterfactual. you can't know who the worse evil would be. further it's not clear that so-called "third party" voters actually impact elections at all unless their candidate wins.
No, we can. 3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.
You prove my point.
we can.
it's impossible to prove a counterfactual. you are either unfamiliar with the scientific method or you are deliberately lying.
3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.
this simply isn't true and reflects a myopic view of history. so-called third parties have been with us almost since the inception of the us, and have accomplished things inconceivable to modern politicians.
It simply is true. Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.
But do tell what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished, relative to Democrats for the working class.
Have you even heard of Nader or Perot?
Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.
so? that doesn't prove that so-called third parties are impotent. it shows that one person made some questionable decisions.
"Questionable decisions," said the individual who had to dig back 100 years to find an example of any tangible progress made by such a 3rd-party...?
I think I'll go with the party that actually has a track-record of progress this half-century.
this is all just posturing and rhetoric. none of it speaks to the issue at hand.
Clear, substantive tangible records speaks nothing to the issue at hand that is discussing whether third-parties actually do anything...?
yes, and i also know that their candidacy had nothing to do with who won the two elections they are (erroneously) credited with spoiling.
They're (accurately) credited with spoiling said elections and it is yet another example of the complete toothless value of 3rd-parties.
any amount of research will show that, in fact, perot's candidacy decreased clinton's margin of victory, and gore won that election.
Any amount of research will, in fact, show that Perot did not win and 3rd-party groups routinely spoil elections without remotely advancing their own agenda they claim to care about.
Nobody in the entire country would've disagreed with that strategy at the time, for quite literally everyone including Republicans thought Trump would doom the party. Hindsight is 20/20
That, however isn't the same as saying Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise lol.
Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise
no one said that.
Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time
you are now shifting the goalposts from "it didn't happen" to "it was a good idea".
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
lol.
an appeal to ridicule
lol logged into a different account I see, wow.
(funny this is the only comment you didn't respond to, isn't it FederatingIsToohard LOL)
Wrote this before and I'll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that's the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn't just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn't hear the words, "indiscriminate bombing" from Trump's facial sphincter.
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
So the choices are siding with genocide, and merely being accused of being pro-Hamas?
Seems like a clear choice, since accusations of being pro-Hamas get flung around for merely wanting to genocide Palestinians just more slowly.
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
Vote for genocide, because if you don’t there’s gonna be more genocide. Y’all doing backflips to cover your violent beliefs.
Ah yes, that's a completely accurate and fair description of the choice at hand and totally 100% not an obvious straw-man fallacy, leaving aside the cute little purity pyrrhic victory you're setting yourself up for.
It’s very easy for me to be against genocide. Seems hard for you. 🤷🏼♂️
I'm completely for being against genocide!
I'm just forward-thinking and very much against it for the next 4 years, let alone next 8 months. Some people see a few more chess-moves ahead than others, I guess. Seems hard for you.
actually,there wouldn't be anymore genocide had the 2 state solution been accepted.
i mean to hamas, peace is shit but death is an honor.
It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s
Arguably this is because he didn't ignore the Bosniak genocide but then NATO was criticized for getting involved.
It's my personal belief that we should intervene militarily to stop genocides, but there's influential "leftist" thinkers who seem to disagree. Some will still say the US shouldn't have gotten involved with Kosovo, and I believe Chomsky notoriously denied the Cambodian genocide was even happening.
Of course, the right answer is to say fuck these people and get involved anyway. We shouldn't bow to political disagreement when it comes to stopping genocides.
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
Oh so then genocide is okay as long as it let's you win an election?
Way to completely miss the point. Impressive, really.
There wasn't a point. It was a denial that anything need to be done because the data says electoral politics are more important than stopping another genocide.
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican if anything happened to Israel, which is also ridiculous to say while asking for data driven anything.
Even if Biden withdrew all aid to Israel, the genocide persists. So, now what?
There you go again with the straw-man fallacies. What's heavily ironic about this is I've heard ad nauseum about the 160,000 Palestinian Americans and what they might do should Biden not change his position. I already gave the PEW data indicating a sizable chunk of those 8 million are indeed supportive of Israel and no matter how you cut it, there's a greater risk to Biden's reelection.
But moreover think about just how short-sighted your thinking is here. Even if Biden stops the aid now and it backfires for Biden's reelection, then Trump gets in — where will you be? Will you be celebrating and patting yourself on the back because Biden shot himself in the foot while Trump steamrolls Palestinians?
I think you just might.
Got it. You are okay with genocide as long as it gets to a electoral victory.
There ya go with those strawman fallacies, again!
Such a strong fighter for these 8 months. Yet don't seem to care whatsoever about the consequences for Palestinians (or Ukrainians for that matter) for the next 4 years. How curious.
I thought you hated strawman arguments?
And now we're too the any criticism of Biden means they're for Trump. Way to get 2 in one there.
Plus still haven't seen your source on how the entire Jewish population in the country are okay with Israels handling of Palestinians and the whole genocide they're doing.
Well then my mistake; for sure: Be critical of Biden all you want. I don't agree with you on what's strategically better for ensuring his reelection but so be it.
All I care is that you vote for Biden in November. Anything short of that is equivalent to being for Trump.
Also, my bad - it was from another comment chain here:
Is this even remotely supported by polling data?
The answer is no, it really is not
There are 172,000 Palestinian Americans.
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it's orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
... But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats' chances then...?
Got it you just don't like people pointing out Bidens flaws.
I mean yeah totally fair to use it as representative population but not like pew research is the best, or polls have been very accurate in the last few years.
And again you can't say
When thats more than the entire population in the states (and surprisingly more than the population of Israel)
https://www.jewishagency.org/jewish-population-rises-to-15-7-million-worldwide-in-2023/
Finally let's suppose all of the Jewish people are going to be mad at Biden for stopping support of Israel due to them committing genocide, who would they vote for? They'd have the same issue as everyone else and have to bite their tongue and vote for Biden.
At this point who cares about Israel? It's clear they aren't making Jewish people safer, and those who would participate in the election are Americans
Incorrect. I just don't like people shooting themselves in the foot or having tunnel-vision without seeing the bigger picture.
hahahah what the hell are you saying? You think PEW is flawed? Do tell how. Do you even understand how statistics work? I bet you didn't even look at their methodology let alone MoE.
Who cares? Whether it's 6.7 million "by some estimates," or 7.6 million "by some estimates." — that in no way changes my point, but good on you for digging in the weeds out of complete irrelevance.
Well now we've come full-circle. The same question can be posed to Biden by his staff by asking, "What will tankies and the left do, vote for Trump? Not vote? Vote 3rd party? See how that worked out for their agenda when literally every progressive advancement came on the backs of the Democratic party and every reversal thereof came from Republicans." So between the two groups, which will Biden choose to risk less, the bigger voting population, or the smaller voting population?
Unfortunately there are a lot of swing-voters out there, too, who haven't had their minds made up. Until they fall into a camp, the Biden administration is going to toe the line to ensure such voters are still reachable.
Not talking about Israel. I'm talking about the relentless propaganda campaign about, "How Biden is an antisemite and jeopardized the safety of Jewish people of Israel by taking away their self-defense." This would be repeated across all right-wing outlets, not to mention the massive amount of foreign interference that is already occurring by Israeli and Russian operatives.
It's intentional. Best guess is these are either wedge-driving trolls, or very young and naive sub-20-year-olds full of idealism but lacking a particular degree of foresight.
Yes anyone who disagrees must be young or a troll. Great rebuttal there
If they dodge the arguments presented and double-down with bullshit accusations and shitty obvious strawman fallacies, then yes, absofuckinglutely.
Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than an election. If LBJ had taken your advice, Civil Rights would never have happened in America.
Apples and oranges in my view; for Is there any law that Biden can sign right now?
Is there anything Biden can do right now that won't be immediately reversed by Trump and orders-of-magnitude worse?
Hence why under these circumstances, in my opinion, following the polling data and ensuring election is paramount.
In the meantime we should all be focused not on criticizing Biden but targeting the pro-Israeli voters and trying to sway them. If you change them, the polling changes, and so too will Biden's position.
And ultimately that's exactly what we've seen over the last couple of months.
You’d sell your mother into slavery to get Biden elected, that much is obvious. You have no moral framework for any of your so-called “principles,” your only concern is winning. Which is precisely how we got to this point after the third-way Democrats compromised with neoliberalism by allowing corporate donations to dominate their party. Compromising your humanity by settling with the lesser evil is still evil.
Hahaha I'm sorry, what? Now you're just going off the deep end.
I'd rather ensure my mother doesn't live with Trump as president for another 4 years. It's not good for her blood pressure.
Unfortunately you just seem far too short-sighted to comprehend the big picture, here. You'd rather manufacture purity tests for the Democrats even if that means holding the door open for literal evil. Classic pyrrhic victory.
Lambast Democrats all you want. Yet Every Single progressive advancement we've had in this country has come through the Democratic party.
I’m not saying to not vote for Biden to prevent the fascism of Trump. I will. And I have to make peace with that, if I can. But I’m not gonna lie to myself and others to justify this administrations actions regarding Palestine. Genocide should never be condoned, even for poll numbers.
I entirely sympathize with that and think this is a very grounded comment. From my view I feel Democrats are losing the information war and our ties to Israel are too deep to just uproot overnight without disastrous consequences.
I weigh the pros/cons of: Biden cutting all ties and aid overnight with Israel versus the risk to popularity and losing the election and handing the keys to Trump. Put another way: if this wasn't election season and polls weren't this tight, I think Biden would've dropped Israel much faster and absorbed the risk. (sort of like withdrawing from Afghanistan far away from an election).
It is imperative every one of us keep pushing against the Israeli narrative so we alter the polling in favor of walking away from Israel.
This is false, they are split and it's much fewer votes to be lost. Maybe none, maybe even some gained.
I'd love your source, because PEW suggests otherwise.
No source, just personal experience. Older people are split, younger people all against Israel (in these events). That's about my relatives from the Jewish side in the US.
Just scream "vote blue no matter who" at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I'm sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we're fucked anyway. Even if you're optimistic and say "No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!" Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That's right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let's get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can't "vote blue no matter who" those types, they'll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We're nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that's why things like Malcolm X's quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it's like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that's a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there's a path forward through the democratic party, it's eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don't think 'progressive issues' like 'stop killing the environment before we all die' have the time necessary to go the same route that's been taken from Malcolm X to now.
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it's far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I'm all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn't change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can't be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the "moderates and liberals" are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what's at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can't comprehend the game you're even trying to threaten. I don't buy into argument that it's "fascism now or later," — for that remains entirely speculative.
You clearly didn't read my original comment.
I did.
I re-read it.
I still disagree with the conclusion.
Okay. Then verbalize those disagreements in the context of my arguments so I don't have to repeat myself.
For example
How? If they won't compromise with leftists and progressives now they won't compromise when leftists and progressives start dominating primaries. I said this in my original comment.
I'm pretty sure they are compromising? Are you saying Biden's position is the same as it was the days after October 7th? Because it's clearly not.
I'm not really integrated in hypotheticals insomuch as the reality at hand: this is election year. The primaries are over. Biden had moved on the issue of Israel already. And we (as well as Ukraine and Palestine) cannot afford as a nation to go through another 4 years.
So give me an argument that reflects polling that doesn't shoot Democrats in the foot in November.
This is your idea of compromise? Nothing has changed. Weapons are still being shipped.
I can't. If you're right you're right. But I'll be voting 3rd party. I won't be held to a double standard. If the pro-weapon shipments voter aren't morally culpable for refusing to yield their position in order to guarantee Biden wins then I'm not either.
It's funny you reply to that but have still managed to dodge my question to you directly related to this... Twice. How convenient.
I'm beginning to feel you're not discussing in good faith.
Lmfao which 3rd party? 3rd party does nothing but give fascists more power. Literally Republicans bankroll your 3rd party candidates including the Green Party to attract folks like you and you fall for the bait. I legitimately have to wonder how old you are simply because these are eerily reminiscent to arguments made from someone sub-22-years-old and witnessing their first maybe second election cycle since turning voting age.
Whatever. If you're voting 3rd party, that's too far gone for me to commit any further than I care to. I might as well talk to a Trump supporter.
There's that double standard.
Thank you for admitting one doesn't understand the mathematical end-result of FPTP, or what spoiler vote is.
I take it I wasn't too far off the mark on the age, either.
This country was founded under genocide and fascism and continues to this day. We still have legalized slavery that we support every time we buy tomatoes at the grocery store as well as our tax dollars. Anti-protest legislation and weaponry are being pushed every single year so much that you can now be considered a domestic terrorist if you protest on a road or pipeline depending on the state. We are relatively comfortable as a direct result of us taking advantage of the global south and continued colonialism projects. The more the unsustainable status-quo is extended, the more people will want to burn shit to the ground because they're seeing their friends and family struggling with absolutely no help from a government that would rather bomb brown kids and bail out corporations and practice insider trading than help them out. They are having to choose to never have children and never own a home because of the status quo. Thinking voting in the same system that got us into this mess will fix it is naive. Should trump even be allowed to run if we were a real democracy? Should citizens get any say in if we're perpetuating a genocide if we were a real democracy? If you think voting for biden will "save democracy", you obviously think we have more time than we actually have.
Voting 3rd party is an answer to the wrong question. The question of "how do we fight off fascism" can't be solved at the ballot box, and it can't be solved by someone who refuses to treat threats of fascism harshly and swiftly or even help bolster defenses against it. Voting for someone who is trying their hardest to lose this election isn't going to fix this. Voting 3rd party isn't going to fix this. Being convinced that the government will be our saviors against themselves means you only need to be engaged in politics when it's time to vote. Get to know your neighbors. Physically defend the most vulnerable against those who are willing to "just follow orders" from a fascist government (state or federal). Sabotage and protest and strike until the capitalists and government start bleeding money and are willing to operate in good faith. If you think that's too much work, go ahead and vote for biden and blame leftists when he inevitably loses. Fascism is already here, but it might start affecting you soon.
Then they're shit at their jobs. This is public research polling, which usually lags behind internal private research.
Gallup Link
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you're going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you're illegally sending arms to.
Isn't that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it's working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he'd be done for. There's no suddenly stopping the inertia we've had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they're "shit at their jobs"? It's a cute, confident thing to say... But if you're really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What's more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel's actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn't share the same popularity. I wouldn't want to be in Biden's position or his strategists.
Any advisor that would lie to the president is a bad advisor. That's a ridiculous thing to argue over. That's not my ego, or me thinking I'm better.
And yes when Israel crosses the line the military aid becomes illegal. There's no exception for "we've been doing it for so long".
Any proof of these lies?
It's a response to what you said. Read the thread if you need context. I'm not going to restate it for you.
Sorry I just don't get what "lie" you're referring to. Anyways, I'm getting nothing of value from this conversation.
It would not be the end for Biden. That's hyperbole. Also why are we pressuring anti genocide people to come out and vote regardless, but taking it for granted that pro genocide people can't be pressured at all.
You know who you're never going to get to vote for Biden again? The Muslim communities that are actually in mourning right now because they know people dying in Gaza. The same ones that are key voting groups in the Rust Belt. Which is the same area that Trump used to win in 2016.
The Republicans are already calling him terrorist pedophile. Doing something to stop the GOP from running baseless attack ads is useless.
The only one trying to lose this election is Biden. There are legions of progressives ready to hold their noses and vote for him. But he keeps running to the right. And we'll keep staying home.
You're saying he'd be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can't agree with that. He'd be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn't just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He's doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He's completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he'd be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn't any more that needs to be said. It's holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
Yup so hard. So many hard words like, "here's those bombs you wanted."
These are his 'only' choices only because identifying the broader issue of Israeli occupation and settlement (the core complaints of Palestinians and the reason why Hamas exists) puts at risk US interests in the region - namely Israel's projection of strength throughout the middle east.
The protection of US neo-colonial and imperial interests is the reason why Biden is in a tough position, and the reason why leftists will never be satisfied by stern words by Biden.
Oh no, he will be accused of being pro-Hamas. Just like when you criritize him you are accused of being pro-Trump, or if you critize evil NATO countries are doing, you are called pro-Russian. If people are that stupid to not see this clear tactic that everyone who critiques me must support my enemies, then you should maybe they shouldn't use the same tactic when it suits them.
It's a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift... As has already occurred.
I don't give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they're voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you're smarter.
Except that the voting uncommitted has actually worked to move Biden on the issue (Dems calling for an election in Israel).
Has it? The real issue convincing those who are undecided or supportive of Israeli action; it's less to do with the minority progressives threatening to not vote because everyone knows progressives will hold their nose. But it's the swing-voter moderates and centrists who are less informed on the issues and easily-swayable by political talking-points — and who make up a far larger chunk of the electorate — that Biden is concerned about. When 1/3 are unsure if Israel is committing genocide and 1/3 say they're not, that is a problem.
It is clear as day that the only thing actually making Biden think twice about unconditionally supporting the mass slaughter of Palestinians is that he might actually lose the election because his opinions are so unpopular and brutal on the Palestinian genocide.
Right now is THE TIME to grind everything about the Democratic Party to a halt until Biden gets the message that halting the supply of weapons to an ongoing genocide is a non-negotiable aspect of getting leftist (and muslim) voters. He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
As I've repeatedly pointed out, the problem is this can only go so far before it works against him. All Democrats are doing is splitting his attention between two groups — and if he pivots too much to one side, he risks alienating an arguably even LARGER group of voters.
So as I said, the best bet is to focus not on finger-wagging to Biden, but finger-wagging to the actual Pro-Israelis and undecided (who are 1/3 of the electorate). Thus if you want to continue influencing Biden, continue influencing the polls themselves and Biden will reflect that.
I think it's just the opposite. I think similar to the Afghan withdrawal once an election has passed he will take a very Anti-Israeli stance while amplifying his support for Ukraine as well.
He had no issues welcoming Nikki Haley voters to become part of his base probably because he knows how hard this election will be to win without the help of progressives and leftists. But he chose to move right instead of left, so he shouldn't be surprised when people start treating him like a 2000s era republican.
How has he moved right? Welcoming Haley voters is a sound strategy that is not mutually-exclusive to moving left, which he absolutely has on the topic of Israel.
Welcoming Haley voters is moving right. Defunding the UNRWA is moving right. The spending bill he was happy to sign still sends billions to Israel. Also, in that bill, it would limit aid to the Palestinian Authority if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.” Biden being more than willing to sign a "snitches get stitches" bill, bullying the rest of the world into letting Israel do whatever they want surely isn't moving left.
Tell me, what policy change has Biden made to appeal to Haley voters?
I suppose you've heard that old adage of "if a person sits at a table with 9 nazis, there are 10 nazis at the table". When trump welcomed the proud boys to his campaign, I had no doubt in my mind he was willing to cooperate with them to enact policy that would strengthen his coalition, and I feel the same about Biden with Haley Voters. It doesn't help your case that he's already pretty conservative to begin with.
I suppose you've heard that old adage of, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." After all, we sort of utilized that during WWII to fight the nazis,
So he hasn't moved his policies whatsoever for Haley voters; he's only appealing to never-Trump voters in order to ensure the real fascist doesn't get elected. You following?
Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas. We could likely go on with these in perpetuity. Also, a lot of Nazis were friends of the US considering Operation Paperclip happened.
Also, why would Biden need to move his policies if he's pretty conservative to begin with? More oil drilling than when trump was president. Horrible border policy. Strike busting. No protections against all the bigoted state level laws. No Supreme Court packing. No nominations for an attorney general who would actually prevent trump from rising to power again (likely because trump is probably the only person Biden even has a chance of beating in an election). Green energy initiatives that are so poorly thought out that it now costs more to install solar than before. Wanting to sign a bill to remove a competing social media platform under the supervision of Musk and Zuckerberg. Bypassing congress to send arms to Israel to support a genocide purely to acquire land to compete with china's new trade route.
Biden is willing to become a hawkish republican to win on the democrat ticket and to be seen as "strong" to would-be republican voters because he knows he's lost the left. If you're okay with the US continually walking right with every democrat and running right with every republican, just keep doing what you're doing.
And yet, you act as though the better alternative was not sleeping with the dogs and letting the Nazis win?
Which outcome would you have preferred? Think ahead here, my friend.
I'm simply responding to the notion that Biden is "moving right" by appealing to Haley voters. I've still yet to see any evidence whatsoever of this claim. Inviting Haley voters into a preestablished structure isn't "moving right." Saying Biden is conservative to begin with != "moving right." One is a present state; the other is a transitioning state that has yet to be evidenced in any capacity.
Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections.
Ladies and gentlemen, a wedge-driving operative seeking to undermine Democrats and get Trump into office. There is literally zero evidence that "Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats". There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office — and Ukrainians and Palestinians would much prefer Biden over Trump any day.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
false dichotomy. they may be familiar with the political system (even more than you or i), and not believe the same things you do. they may be a leftist. you are making up attacks on their person instead of dealing with the substance of their claims.
No, commie (username), I'm simply grounded in reality.
that's a thought-terminating cliche like saying it's common sense. if you can't support your position, that's no reason to go off attacking other people as malevolent or incompetent.
My original statements remain largely untouched; it's not my issue you deflected the aforementioned points. Why proceed further?
this is ambiguous. what do you mean?
Please go back and read more closely; I'd rather not repeat myself.
if you can't use clear syntax, repeating yourself will do no good.
I think my request is quite clear.
no such evidence is possible: you can't prove a counterfactual. you can't know who the worse evil would be. further it's not clear that so-called "third party" voters actually impact elections at all unless their candidate wins.
No, we can. 3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.
You prove my point.
it's impossible to prove a counterfactual. you are either unfamiliar with the scientific method or you are deliberately lying.
this simply isn't true and reflects a myopic view of history. so-called third parties have been with us almost since the inception of the us, and have accomplished things inconceivable to modern politicians.
It simply is true. Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.
But do tell what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished, relative to Democrats for the working class.
Have you even heard of Nader or Perot?
so? that doesn't prove that so-called third parties are impotent. it shows that one person made some questionable decisions.
"Questionable decisions," said the individual who had to dig back 100 years to find an example of any tangible progress made by such a 3rd-party...?
I think I'll go with the party that actually has a track-record of progress this half-century.
this is all just posturing and rhetoric. none of it speaks to the issue at hand.
Clear, substantive tangible records speaks nothing to the issue at hand that is discussing whether third-parties actually do anything...?
Huh?
the prohibition party got a constitutional amendment passed. the republican party completely usurped the whigs.
Damn! You had to go back over 100 years practically to the Whigs!
as i said, so-called third parties have been with us much longer and have accomplished things modern politicians could never conceive.
"never conceive"?
Tell me, did a third party pass the Civil Rights Act?
That was pretty inconceivable for the time.
As was legalizing same sex marriage.
yes, and i also know that their candidacy had nothing to do with who won the two elections they are (erroneously) credited with spoiling.
They're (accurately) credited with spoiling said elections and it is yet another example of the complete toothless value of 3rd-parties.
any amount of research will show that, in fact, perot's candidacy decreased clinton's margin of victory, and gore won that election.
Any amount of research will, in fact, show that Perot did not win and 3rd-party groups routinely spoil elections without remotely advancing their own agenda they claim to care about.
no, i don't.
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
Nobody in the entire country would've disagreed with that strategy at the time, for quite literally everyone including Republicans thought Trump would doom the party. Hindsight is 20/20
That, however isn't the same as saying Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise lol.
no one said that.
you are now shifting the goalposts from "it didn't happen" to "it was a good idea".
an appeal to ridicule
lol logged into a different account I see, wow.
(funny this is the only comment you didn't respond to, isn't it FederatingIsToohard LOL)
Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting.