Kill it yourself and eat it? Fine by me. Circle of life, yadda yadda.
Send hundreds into an abattoir to be machine killed by robots or strangers and eat it? No. Own up to the process, or don't partake.
Own up to the process, or don't partake.
That's actually why I went vegan: I couldn't see myself ever killing an animal.
That's great in theory, but there's just too many people for that to be anywhere close to realistic. If we had about 20% of our current global population, then I'd agree with you, but even the worst pandemic in modern history couldn't scratch 1%.
my parents grew up eating meat once a every few months, from animals they raised themselves. No big farm, just a house in a village. Is that not sustainable?
No it isnt because unless you eat/drink enough dairy or take B12 supplements, youre going to have a B12 deficiency if you do that. People forget that meat actually serves a nutritional purpose.
Well shit, B12 supplements are cheap enough. Are there any other reasons it’s a bad idea?
Vegans and vegetarians (once a month meat consumption isnt really an omnivore diet) are more likely to be deficient in Zinc, Iron and are more susceptible to osteoporosis due to poor Calcium uptake. Because animal protein does help the body to absorb minerals like Iron, Zinc and the like (it isnt known for sure why and phytates in certain plant foods also hampers mineral uptake) vegetarians and vegans need to overcompensate for those minerals in their food. On the order of about 50% higher than the RDA for omnivores.
Now I am not saying it cant be healthy, it can and there certainly are problems with how the average westerner eats, but I have no confidence in this being done correctly on a mass scale given the data that has come out. eg. 50% of vegans are deficient in B12 as measured by blood test and thats among a population that is likely much more aware of B12 being problematic since it is only naturally found in significant quantities in animal products and almost every meat and dairy substitute on the market is fortified with B12. And that widespread deficiency STILL happens. Vegetarians are less susceptible to B12 deficiency but still generally rely on the dairy industry to obtain that B12 along with Calcium and Zinc. And because B12 is water soluble not fat soluble, it needs to be obtained daily or in higher doses, semidaily. And the effects of B12 deficiency can be delayed months (pernicious anemia) or years (permanent nerve damage with the anemia hidden by excess folate consumption)
People need education and better meat and dairy substitutes that arent as processed to make this work. Right now, most of them have too much salt and saturated fats to be an improvement.
No such thing as animal protein being different from any other protein.
This is not true at all.
You made the claim, prove it.
Denying that there are substantial differences between animal and plant protein is a weird take. (Anyone with a milk protein allergy is grateful that the proteins in plant milk arent the same as the ones in cow milk) Plant proteins arent always complete and the type of proteins arent the same. Plants for example, dont have proteins like casein which is present in cow milk. And as is pointed out in the linked review, can be deficient in amino acids such as Lysine, Cysteine and Methionine. (The sulfur containing amino acids they refer to) There is also evidence that plant protein by and large isnt absorbed as effectively as animal protein. Which is fine for the vast majority of people. i.e contrary to the fear mongering, vegetarians and vegans still get plenty of protein unless theyve done something horribly wrong. And the lower digestability of plant proteins has been useful in treating proteinuria (excessive protein in the urine) which is usually associated with kidney failure.
"A recent meta-analysis concluded that soy protein resulted in similar muscle mass and strength gains as animal protein"
"Meta-analysis revealed that although consuming animal protein provided a favorable effect on absolute lean mass compared to plant protein, the result was not statistically significant"
"As for muscle strength, meta-analyses showed no statistical difference in effect between animal protein and plant protein"
Also all the protein they are talking about is dairy not meat.
Your own link, did you read it?
If youre going to cherry pick links that agree with you you can fuck right off. I have no patience for dishonest people. I gave you a chance to not be a cunt and you fucked that up.
I agree there are differences in the proteins, and thay was an interesting read but its clearly much less than you suggest, they are talking 1% differences or statistical anomalies. I took the time to read what you'd posted so I'm clearly not acting dishonestly but I am reporting you for offensive language.
Well they did eat lots of cheese and dairy. Is that not okay?
You need cows to produce all of that just like you would meat. The way cow physiology works requires that calves be birthed periodically to maintain milk production at large scale. The dairy industry is to a large extent, a by product of the meat industry. Those new calves have to go somewhere. And you have to keep in mind that 70% of the world's population is lactose intolerant as adults. They rely on nondairy meat products for the majority of the B12 they get. OR you switch people to vegan substitutes that have B12 added to them. Right now those are niche/luxury products which is problematic for developing nations. Like... imagine going from small scale cattle and poultry farming to relying on B12 bacterial fermenters and soy production at large scale. That might be doable if new processes for using certain strains of B12 producing pseudomonas bacterial cultures can be developed for fermented soy products like tempeh can spread there but again, those arent there yet. More R&D is needed.
Kill it yourself and eat it? Fine by me. Circle of life, yadda yadda.
Send hundreds into an abattoir to be machine killed by robots or strangers and eat it? No. Own up to the process, or don't partake.
That's actually why I went vegan: I couldn't see myself ever killing an animal.
That's great in theory, but there's just too many people for that to be anywhere close to realistic. If we had about 20% of our current global population, then I'd agree with you, but even the worst pandemic in modern history couldn't scratch 1%.
my parents grew up eating meat once a every few months, from animals they raised themselves. No big farm, just a house in a village. Is that not sustainable?
No it isnt because unless you eat/drink enough dairy or take B12 supplements, youre going to have a B12 deficiency if you do that. People forget that meat actually serves a nutritional purpose.
Well shit, B12 supplements are cheap enough. Are there any other reasons it’s a bad idea?
Vegans and vegetarians (once a month meat consumption isnt really an omnivore diet) are more likely to be deficient in Zinc, Iron and are more susceptible to osteoporosis due to poor Calcium uptake. Because animal protein does help the body to absorb minerals like Iron, Zinc and the like (it isnt known for sure why and phytates in certain plant foods also hampers mineral uptake) vegetarians and vegans need to overcompensate for those minerals in their food. On the order of about 50% higher than the RDA for omnivores.
Now I am not saying it cant be healthy, it can and there certainly are problems with how the average westerner eats, but I have no confidence in this being done correctly on a mass scale given the data that has come out. eg. 50% of vegans are deficient in B12 as measured by blood test and thats among a population that is likely much more aware of B12 being problematic since it is only naturally found in significant quantities in animal products and almost every meat and dairy substitute on the market is fortified with B12. And that widespread deficiency STILL happens. Vegetarians are less susceptible to B12 deficiency but still generally rely on the dairy industry to obtain that B12 along with Calcium and Zinc. And because B12 is water soluble not fat soluble, it needs to be obtained daily or in higher doses, semidaily. And the effects of B12 deficiency can be delayed months (pernicious anemia) or years (permanent nerve damage with the anemia hidden by excess folate consumption)
People need education and better meat and dairy substitutes that arent as processed to make this work. Right now, most of them have too much salt and saturated fats to be an improvement.
No such thing as animal protein being different from any other protein.
This is not true at all.
You made the claim, prove it.
Denying that there are substantial differences between animal and plant protein is a weird take. (Anyone with a milk protein allergy is grateful that the proteins in plant milk arent the same as the ones in cow milk) Plant proteins arent always complete and the type of proteins arent the same. Plants for example, dont have proteins like casein which is present in cow milk. And as is pointed out in the linked review, can be deficient in amino acids such as Lysine, Cysteine and Methionine. (The sulfur containing amino acids they refer to) There is also evidence that plant protein by and large isnt absorbed as effectively as animal protein. Which is fine for the vast majority of people. i.e contrary to the fear mongering, vegetarians and vegans still get plenty of protein unless theyve done something horribly wrong. And the lower digestability of plant proteins has been useful in treating proteinuria (excessive protein in the urine) which is usually associated with kidney failure.
The Role of the Anabolic Properties of Plant- versus Animal-Based Protein Sources in Supporting Muscle Mass Maintenance: A Critical Review
"A recent meta-analysis concluded that soy protein resulted in similar muscle mass and strength gains as animal protein"
"Meta-analysis revealed that although consuming animal protein provided a favorable effect on absolute lean mass compared to plant protein, the result was not statistically significant"
"As for muscle strength, meta-analyses showed no statistical difference in effect between animal protein and plant protein"
Also all the protein they are talking about is dairy not meat.
Your own link, did you read it?
If youre going to cherry pick links that agree with you you can fuck right off. I have no patience for dishonest people. I gave you a chance to not be a cunt and you fucked that up.
I agree there are differences in the proteins, and thay was an interesting read but its clearly much less than you suggest, they are talking 1% differences or statistical anomalies. I took the time to read what you'd posted so I'm clearly not acting dishonestly but I am reporting you for offensive language.
Thank you for the write up!
Well they did eat lots of cheese and dairy. Is that not okay?
You need cows to produce all of that just like you would meat. The way cow physiology works requires that calves be birthed periodically to maintain milk production at large scale. The dairy industry is to a large extent, a by product of the meat industry. Those new calves have to go somewhere. And you have to keep in mind that 70% of the world's population is lactose intolerant as adults. They rely on nondairy meat products for the majority of the B12 they get. OR you switch people to vegan substitutes that have B12 added to them. Right now those are niche/luxury products which is problematic for developing nations. Like... imagine going from small scale cattle and poultry farming to relying on B12 bacterial fermenters and soy production at large scale. That might be doable if new processes for using certain strains of B12 producing pseudomonas bacterial cultures can be developed for fermented soy products like tempeh can spread there but again, those arent there yet. More R&D is needed.