On one hand arguing that a 15 yo isn't old enough to realise the consequences of spreading AI nudes of a real girl.
On the other hand arguing that 15 yo's are totes old and responsible enough to undergo life changing surgery/procedures.
Kids are never offered "life changing surgeries". This doesn't happen.
Evidence very much suggests being trans is a genuine neurological condition that we are born with.
Additionally, getting a diagnosis is a long process (and it's not guaranteed that you'll get one), and then actually getting treatment takes even more time (also not guaranteed).
EDIT: I can't read what the transphobe is saying anymore as they have rightly been banned from the server I'm on. Detransitioning is uncommon, but of course perfectly valid. Typically people detransition because of transphobia or for economic reasons. Have some additional links:
Awfully quick to jump to conclusions. Awfully quick to remove people from society.
Sad that you think those actions are just. May you be treated how you treat others. 😉
Hence the /procedures. 😉
Weird how you left out the links of studies, reports of people that actually do regret it. I mean should we just ignore those people?
If you want kids to be able to make these decisions, you will have to inform them. Properly. Not just paint them a nice picture. That's what you're currently doing. Not informing them and painting nice pink pictures.
It is not sunshine and rainbows for everyone. There are trans people who regret it. Ignoring that fact is being dishonest with yourself and the transcommunity.
The rate of regret for transition is massively lower than almost any other medical intervention. Why do you care so much about this one specific type of intervention, above all others? Why not invest your activism into medical interventions with much higher rates of regret?
And why do you choose to spend time on your pedophilic tendencies/anti-trans activism?
They would have known this if they bothered to open the surgery regret rate studies I linked them (but we both know studies won't change their mind). For the lazy it's less than 1% for both transmascs and transfems.
So requesting you be honest and fully inform kids is pedophiliac tendencies? You do get how this makes you look? Right?
Please point out where I mentioned anything anti-trans. Or is this again by requesting honesty and transparency? Again, you do realise how this makes you look? Right?
Judging from the responses and downvotes, I can see this community still doesn't want informed consent....
So requesting you be honest and fully inform kids is pedophiliac tendencies? You do get how this makes you look? Right?
No, I'm talking about your kiddy diddling/anti-trans rhetoric. Why do you diddle kids/spread anti-trans rhetoric?
Please point out where I wrote anything like that. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Well, you're posting anti-trans rhetoric (talking about regret rates without mentioning that they are much lower than almost any others, talking as if people weren't well-informed about the risks during the multi-year process it takes to transition etc). I can quote your whole post back to you if it helps you? But you can just scroll up and read your own comment, it's a neat function of messaging boards.
Informed consent is now anti-trans? Really?
Implying that the current levels of informed consent aren't enough to properly inform people, and further implying that large amounts of regret exist due to transitioning, is without question anti-trans.
Please point out where I made those statements?
As was mentioned, it's a long process. With still 1%, which is a very conservative estimate, regretting it after all those years, all that information. I feel this should be mentioned.
What you did not mention however was the 13% that stopped transitioning and started detransitioning. The previous 1% only takes into account completed transitions. Since it's a lengthy process, there are many that stop during the process.
That should also be mentioned and the fact that you willingly choose to omit it shows you do not want informed consent.
Wow, you really can't scroll up? Fine, here's your previous comment:
Weird how you left out the links of studies, reports of people that actually do regret it. I mean should we just ignore those people?
If you want kids to be able to make these decisions, you will have to inform them. Properly. Not just paint them a nice picture. That's what you're currently doing. Not informing them and painting nice pink pictures.
It is not sunshine and rainbows for everyone. There are trans people who regret it. Ignoring that fact is being dishonest with yourself and the transcommunity.
Not sure why you're telling me I didn't mention some 13% number, when I didn't mention any numbers at all. Yet it's even more weird that you're not bringing up that even those 13% are lower than most other medical interventions. Again, why do you keep focusing on trans topics, when other medical interventions have this issue to a much larger degree?
Why do you want to diddle small children/spread anti-trans rhetoric?
On the other hand arguing that it's between the parents, their child, and their doctor. Not lawmakers and not you.
It's funny how you just downvote and provide zero arguments. Just jumping to call me anti-trans and a pedo.
Good thing I'm not as phobic as you people and will still support the trans community, just not the individuals being dicks.
I did not downvote you, I did give an argument and I did not call you either anti-trans or a pedophile.
Why are you lying? Everyone can even see that all but the downvote lie are lies.
No. You did not. Parents aren't required. Neither is the doctor initially. Psycologist or psychiatrist would be better. They have a better understanding than your run of the mill doctor.
Perhaps I should've been more clear that my response was not aimed only at you, but the others here as well.
What are you talking about? Teens undergo life changing surgery all the time, whether it is for a sports injury, to correct scoliosis, oral surgery, etc.
True. And how do those differ from trans care?
They have higher regret rates than trans care?
No sweetie, those can be diagnosed through imaging and completed without the patient saying one word.
Trans care is a dialog.
Nice try, better luck next time?
You're stretching even further now. Most medical care is based on a patient telling a doctor what is bothering them. There's allergies, soft tissue injuries, psychological needs, sleep disorders, digestive problems, eating disorders,learning disabilities, etc. etc. etc.
Teens shouldn't be allowed treatment for any of those? Or will you keep drawing more and more granular distinctions to fit your conclusion?
Let's just take an example that fits your definition: bariatric surgery is 1) surgical 2) not determined by imaging 3) undergone only in consultation with the patient 4) undergone only alongside psychological and lifestyle support 5) related to future health outcomes 6) related to the patient's body image 7) sometimes appropriate in teens/adolescents 8) requires lifelong lifestyle changes 9) not related to an accute injury or illness 10) it is not an urgent lifesaving procedure
It is in every way exactly like gender affirming care except not being related to gender.
So surely you would argue that bariatric surgery should be banned for teens, based on your position. Their brains are still developing so they cannot possibly make such a decision that will impact the rest of their lives. If they still feel like they need it when they are adults, then they can do it then.
Right?
I gotta say, bariatric surgery sounds pretty bad after googleing it. Its no where near like trans surgery. Though, I personally think both should be banned for minors. I am of the mind that such life altering changes should only be made once someone is of a certian age to be fully responsible.
I do not have faith in teenagers or even young adults to know how to best handle their life when they are so young. Im in my thirties and i barely believe i make the best decision for my own life.
My concern are for the ones who will ultimately regret having made the decision to transition. There just should be a limit to any body modification for minors.
Here is where we differ: I believe that the very smart people who go to school to study these exact issues for many years, practice for decades, review one another's work, and spend a lifetime studying the outcomes of the surgeries are in the best place to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed.
If an individual, their family, and an entire team of doctors determine that something is safe and advisable, I trust that decision much more than my uneducated feelings.
Yeah i agree, im not whole sale against it. But you talk of these highly educated people making these decisions. What about all the morally corrupt parts of life where this can, and i bet is, being abused for nefarious reason.
I just think all major decisions like these should only be made once someone is of age. That way if they were wrong it couldn't be held against anyone in a future lawsuit./s
When a decision is made to perform surgery on a minor, it is always because doctors have determined that it is more dangerous to wait.
I'm not even going to address the completely unfounded claim of some nefarious cabal of doctors.
Hah oh i didnt say a cabal of nefarious doctors. What do you think of people who later regret going through surgery?
I just think body modifications should wait till someone is of age, just like tattoos.
You assume everything is done with the best of intentions. You're either a kid or just ignorant of how fucked up life is. This is why we also shouldnt allow marriage until someone is of age.
Medical treatment is provided on a basis of best practices established by an entire healthcare community including medical practitioners, clinicians, researchers, and institutions. Studies rely on statistical risk models. That's why before you go through any medical treatment, a doctor will tell you that no treatment is without risk.
As a result, every treatment includes a percentage of recipients who experience regret. Gender affirmation surgeries have an exceptionally low regret rate.
Compared to, say, pain medication, there is not really a profit motive for doctors to over-prescribe or over-treat gender affirmation treatments.
The suggestion that a minor should not go through any medically necessary "body modification" procedure, is cruel and untenable. That would mean:
Sexually active teens be categorically denied birth control
Dangerously overweight teens be denied surgeries or other treatment that could add years or decades to their life, as well as prevent knee, hip, and back problems in adulthood (that having the surgery later would not repair)
Student athletes be denied surgical joint repairs that could restore movement and prevent future injury (that could not be performed with the same success rate in adulthood)
Children with congenital heart problems be denied care which could both add years to their life and improve the quality of their childhood
Children who could benefit from ear tubes be forced to face risk of incurable hearing loss
-Children who could benefit from cochlear implants be denied the possibility of hearing until they are 18
Children with juvenile glaucoma be forced to go through childhood with partial blindness, which may become irreversible
Children at risk of lifelong trauma or suicide due to gender dysphoria be denied gender affirming care that can add decades to their life and improve the quality of their childhood
Please stop with the dismissive name-calling and try to think these things through more completely. In all of these cases, medical providers work with a family to assess the risks and needs of a child, make recommendations, and carry out the treatment most likely to have the greatest positive medical impact. The suggestion that anyone outside a child, their family, and their medical providers should have a say in the decision strikes me as arrogant, cruel, and offensive.
Funny how you assume I want to ban it. Seems like a common trend. In which you are identical to the frequenters of r/the_donald. If I don't flatout agree with you, I must heavily oppose you.
Didn't you get the "trans care is a dialog" part? I mean I would love to see your reasoning in how that can be viewed as wanting to ban it. I always love a good show of mental gymnastics.
Ah, yes. Because doing surgeries "without the patient saying one word" to consent to them is great for regret rates. XD
I guess you missed the important part. And focussed only on the irrelevant part. Didn't expect anything else tbh.
This is EXACTLY how it goes! A teen walks into a Doctor's office and says "I'M TRANS!" and the Doctor gets their Scissor and cuts off their Penis without ANY TESTING or THERAPY or TRANSITIONAL PERIODS whatsoever!
On one hand arguing that a 15 yo isn't old enough to realise the consequences of spreading AI nudes of a real girl.
On the other hand arguing that 15 yo's are totes old and responsible enough to undergo life changing surgery/procedures.
Kids are never offered "life changing surgeries". This doesn't happen. Evidence very much suggests being trans is a genuine neurological condition that we are born with.
Our brains match our gender.
Brains are not necessarily binary.
We understand some of the causes.
"Risk" of being born trans seems to be partly genetic.
Our identities are stable.
The American Academy of Pediatrics is on our side.
Adults don't regret surgery. And another study on the same.
Additionally, getting a diagnosis is a long process (and it's not guaranteed that you'll get one), and then actually getting treatment takes even more time (also not guaranteed).
EDIT: I can't read what the transphobe is saying anymore as they have rightly been banned from the server I'm on. Detransitioning is uncommon, but of course perfectly valid. Typically people detransition because of transphobia or for economic reasons. Have some additional links:
Rates of detransition are low, and they are only very rarely permanent and caused by true regret.
GenderGP links multiple studies saying essentially the same thing.
This one mentions detransition rates of 13%, but again mostly to escape stigma.
Awfully quick to jump to conclusions. Awfully quick to remove people from society.
Sad that you think those actions are just. May you be treated how you treat others. 😉
Hence the /procedures. 😉
Weird how you left out the links of studies, reports of people that actually do regret it. I mean should we just ignore those people?
If you want kids to be able to make these decisions, you will have to inform them. Properly. Not just paint them a nice picture. That's what you're currently doing. Not informing them and painting nice pink pictures.
It is not sunshine and rainbows for everyone. There are trans people who regret it. Ignoring that fact is being dishonest with yourself and the transcommunity.
The rate of regret for transition is massively lower than almost any other medical intervention. Why do you care so much about this one specific type of intervention, above all others? Why not invest your activism into medical interventions with much higher rates of regret?
And why do you choose to spend time on your pedophilic tendencies/anti-trans activism?
They would have known this if they bothered to open the surgery regret rate studies I linked them (but we both know studies won't change their mind). For the lazy it's less than 1% for both transmascs and transfems.
So requesting you be honest and fully inform kids is pedophiliac tendencies? You do get how this makes you look? Right?
Please point out where I mentioned anything anti-trans. Or is this again by requesting honesty and transparency? Again, you do realise how this makes you look? Right?
Judging from the responses and downvotes, I can see this community still doesn't want informed consent....
No, I'm talking about your kiddy diddling/anti-trans rhetoric. Why do you diddle kids/spread anti-trans rhetoric?
Please point out where I wrote anything like that. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Well, you're posting anti-trans rhetoric (talking about regret rates without mentioning that they are much lower than almost any others, talking as if people weren't well-informed about the risks during the multi-year process it takes to transition etc). I can quote your whole post back to you if it helps you? But you can just scroll up and read your own comment, it's a neat function of messaging boards.
Informed consent is now anti-trans? Really?
Implying that the current levels of informed consent aren't enough to properly inform people, and further implying that large amounts of regret exist due to transitioning, is without question anti-trans.
Please point out where I made those statements?
As was mentioned, it's a long process. With still 1%, which is a very conservative estimate, regretting it after all those years, all that information. I feel this should be mentioned.
What you did not mention however was the 13% that stopped transitioning and started detransitioning. The previous 1% only takes into account completed transitions. Since it's a lengthy process, there are many that stop during the process.
That should also be mentioned and the fact that you willingly choose to omit it shows you do not want informed consent.
Wow, you really can't scroll up? Fine, here's your previous comment:
Not sure why you're telling me I didn't mention some 13% number, when I didn't mention any numbers at all. Yet it's even more weird that you're not bringing up that even those 13% are lower than most other medical interventions. Again, why do you keep focusing on trans topics, when other medical interventions have this issue to a much larger degree?
Why do you want to diddle small children/spread anti-trans rhetoric?
Provide peer-reviewed evidence to your claims, or you will be banned for multiple instances of misinformation.
10 hours.
On the other hand arguing that it's between the parents, their child, and their doctor. Not lawmakers and not you.
It's funny how you just downvote and provide zero arguments. Just jumping to call me anti-trans and a pedo.
Good thing I'm not as phobic as you people and will still support the trans community, just not the individuals being dicks.
I did not downvote you, I did give an argument and I did not call you either anti-trans or a pedophile.
Why are you lying? Everyone can even see that all but the downvote lie are lies.
No. You did not. Parents aren't required. Neither is the doctor initially. Psycologist or psychiatrist would be better. They have a better understanding than your run of the mill doctor.
Perhaps I should've been more clear that my response was not aimed only at you, but the others here as well.
What are you talking about? Teens undergo life changing surgery all the time, whether it is for a sports injury, to correct scoliosis, oral surgery, etc.
True. And how do those differ from trans care?
They have higher regret rates than trans care?
No sweetie, those can be diagnosed through imaging and completed without the patient saying one word.
Trans care is a dialog.
Nice try, better luck next time?
You're stretching even further now. Most medical care is based on a patient telling a doctor what is bothering them. There's allergies, soft tissue injuries, psychological needs, sleep disorders, digestive problems, eating disorders,learning disabilities, etc. etc. etc.
Teens shouldn't be allowed treatment for any of those? Or will you keep drawing more and more granular distinctions to fit your conclusion?
Let's just take an example that fits your definition: bariatric surgery is 1) surgical 2) not determined by imaging 3) undergone only in consultation with the patient 4) undergone only alongside psychological and lifestyle support 5) related to future health outcomes 6) related to the patient's body image 7) sometimes appropriate in teens/adolescents 8) requires lifelong lifestyle changes 9) not related to an accute injury or illness 10) it is not an urgent lifesaving procedure
It is in every way exactly like gender affirming care except not being related to gender.
So surely you would argue that bariatric surgery should be banned for teens, based on your position. Their brains are still developing so they cannot possibly make such a decision that will impact the rest of their lives. If they still feel like they need it when they are adults, then they can do it then.
Right?
I gotta say, bariatric surgery sounds pretty bad after googleing it. Its no where near like trans surgery. Though, I personally think both should be banned for minors. I am of the mind that such life altering changes should only be made once someone is of a certian age to be fully responsible.
I do not have faith in teenagers or even young adults to know how to best handle their life when they are so young. Im in my thirties and i barely believe i make the best decision for my own life.
My concern are for the ones who will ultimately regret having made the decision to transition. There just should be a limit to any body modification for minors.
Here is where we differ: I believe that the very smart people who go to school to study these exact issues for many years, practice for decades, review one another's work, and spend a lifetime studying the outcomes of the surgeries are in the best place to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed.
If an individual, their family, and an entire team of doctors determine that something is safe and advisable, I trust that decision much more than my uneducated feelings.
Yeah i agree, im not whole sale against it. But you talk of these highly educated people making these decisions. What about all the morally corrupt parts of life where this can, and i bet is, being abused for nefarious reason.
I just think all major decisions like these should only be made once someone is of age. That way if they were wrong it couldn't be held against anyone in a future lawsuit./s
When a decision is made to perform surgery on a minor, it is always because doctors have determined that it is more dangerous to wait.
I'm not even going to address the completely unfounded claim of some nefarious cabal of doctors.
Hah oh i didnt say a cabal of nefarious doctors. What do you think of people who later regret going through surgery?
I just think body modifications should wait till someone is of age, just like tattoos.
You assume everything is done with the best of intentions. You're either a kid or just ignorant of how fucked up life is. This is why we also shouldnt allow marriage until someone is of age.
Medical treatment is provided on a basis of best practices established by an entire healthcare community including medical practitioners, clinicians, researchers, and institutions. Studies rely on statistical risk models. That's why before you go through any medical treatment, a doctor will tell you that no treatment is without risk.
As a result, every treatment includes a percentage of recipients who experience regret. Gender affirmation surgeries have an exceptionally low regret rate.
Compared to, say, pain medication, there is not really a profit motive for doctors to over-prescribe or over-treat gender affirmation treatments.
The suggestion that a minor should not go through any medically necessary "body modification" procedure, is cruel and untenable. That would mean:
Please stop with the dismissive name-calling and try to think these things through more completely. In all of these cases, medical providers work with a family to assess the risks and needs of a child, make recommendations, and carry out the treatment most likely to have the greatest positive medical impact. The suggestion that anyone outside a child, their family, and their medical providers should have a say in the decision strikes me as arrogant, cruel, and offensive.
Funny how you assume I want to ban it. Seems like a common trend. In which you are identical to the frequenters of r/the_donald. If I don't flatout agree with you, I must heavily oppose you.
Didn't you get the "trans care is a dialog" part? I mean I would love to see your reasoning in how that can be viewed as wanting to ban it. I always love a good show of mental gymnastics.
Ah, yes. Because doing surgeries "without the patient saying one word" to consent to them is great for regret rates. XD
I guess you missed the important part. And focussed only on the irrelevant part. Didn't expect anything else tbh.
This is EXACTLY how it goes! A teen walks into a Doctor's office and says "I'M TRANS!" and the Doctor gets their Scissor and cuts off their Penis without ANY TESTING or THERAPY or TRANSITIONAL PERIODS whatsoever!