If this is something you feel strongly about, then please stop eating factory farmed meat and animal products if you havent already. It is something you personally can actually do. It helps, and it will genuinely make you feel better. You may not have much power, but using the power you do have to help the team you claim to be on instead of the other team is a massive step forward.
Look, you're not really wrong, but you get that this shit is why people get irritated with vegans right? We were talking about being wasteful with energy resources for the sake of capitalism and you came in with a lazy segue to animal rights and nutritional health.
It's a conversation that we should be having, but it's also insufferable to constantly be shoehorning it into every conversation.
I don't agree. The comment points out the single most effektive move an individal without political nor financial power can make to cut personal co2-emissions with just a change of habit. It's not about veganism, animal rights or your health, it's just about sanity. Us still eating meat even though we know better is an incredibly dumb waste of energy for the sake of pleasure, exactly like this shitty powereating globe.
As long as >95% of the global population still consumes meat I understand the urge to bring this topic everywhere.
Oh, you're one of those "you can save the planet with your personal habits" people...
You enjoy your salad. I'm wondering what it takes to firebomb an oil refinery.
And you are one of those "every problem on the planet is the fault of someone else other than me so I can do whatever I want with no regard for it's affect on anyone else" people. Stay away from us if you can't be bothered to carry your own weight, you just drag down people who actually give a shit about something other than their own immediate selfish gratification.
you are one of those "every problem on the planet is the fault of someone else other than me..."
Yes.
There are things in your power to change and things out of your power to change. What you are doing is sadly trying to excuse yourself from doing what you can do because of the existence of things you can't. It's absolutely because you are lazy. If everyone were like you, we would be screwed. As it is, the good things come from people who are not like you. You're welcome. As someone who tries to help, you are a burden we have to deal with, we would appreciate it if you picked up some rope and helped us pull instead of just laying on the sled complaining.
The Top 1% have the power to cause so much damage. You most likely belong to the Top 10% and your reasoning is exactly the same: "Not my fault. Why would I change, as long as everyone else doesn't." But Prioners dilemma makes it worse for everyone involved. So be a better person than them, be the change you want to see in them and stop pointing fingers like a spoiled kid.
Take a train instead of a flight. Cycle to work or take public transport instead of driving. Install a heat pump or solar in your house. There are a million things people can do to cut down their emissions that can be as effective as becoming herbivores, depending on each one's personal situation.
Plus, I don't have the numbers in my head but I'm pretty sure a locally grown fillet of chicken is more environmentally friendly than an avocado that has travelled across the Atlantic, so "buy local" would be probably better advice.
Yeah, so many things one should do. Yet nothing is as simple as paying for a different product next time you're shopping your groceries.
Avocados are way less harmfull to our planet than local meat. People keep bringing this up so often it's #20 on the Vegan Bullshit Bingo.
The comment points out the single most effektive move an individal without political nor financial power can make to cut personal co2-emissions with just a change of habit.
eating meat doesn't emit co2
Producing that meat does.
Note that the commenter didn’t say to quit all eating meat. They just said to quit eating “factory farmed” meat.
It’s not about eating meat, it’s about factory farming the meat and the damage to the environment caused by it.
... right. but your personal consumption doesn't change industrial output.
If you are spending money on factory farmed meat, you are financing the industry.
If you are spending money on factory farmed meat, you are financing the industry.
regardless of what i (or you) spend my (or your) money on, the industry continues to grow. if i get hit by a bus today on my way home from work and die, the meat industry, i guarantee you, will not notice. they will continue to grow, producing more meat this year than last, and more next year than this.
That is the cynical reason for not doing anything ever to help the world.
Why should I vote? I’m one person and that will never make a difference.
Why should I recycle? I’m just one person and that will never make a difference.
Why should I donate to charity? I’m just one person and that will never make a difference.
Anything that you could do individually to help the world will make zero noticeable impact so long as you are the only one doing it. But collectively, the more people doing it the more of an impact it will have.
And how do we get a larger community of people to start something like this? Oh, I don’t know, maybe send your idea out on a forum of like minded people (such as people expressing concern about the environment) and hope to inspire others that actually care to make a change in their own habits.
That is the cynical reason for not doing anything ever to help the world.
it's a very good reason not to do things that aren't effective.
From the cynical perspective, that makes 100% sense. Not everybody is so cynical, though.
if you were proposing an effective solution i'd be all for it. we've had vegans since the 1940s, and it has not stopped the growth of agriculture industries. they have become more efficient, but i'm not sure that's either good or attributable to vegans.
Why should I vote? I’m one person and that will never make a difference.
voting is disanalogous to buying food. big meat doesn't win or lose one day every four years.
Why should I recycle? I’m just one person and that will never make a difference.
well that's probably true. the real issue is the wasteful packaging produced, and no matter how much you recycle, that's never going to curb the amount of wasteful packaging produced.
And how do we get a larger community of people to start something like this? Oh, I don’t know, maybe send your idea out on a forum of like minded people (such as people expressing concern about the environment) and hope to inspire others that actually care to make a change in their own habits.
let me know how that works out for you.
collectively, the more people doing it the more of an impact it will have.
well, duh. but there are still effective things you can do to help the environment. buying beans isn't one of them.
Anything that you could do individually to help the world will make zero noticeable impact so long as you are the only one doing it.
that's not true.
Why should I donate to charity? I’m just one person and that will never make a difference.
often, charities are able to show exactly how much money it takes to accomplish their goals. $0.11/day to feed a child is one that's stuck with me. but regardless, i think charity is a societal ill and we should be building societies that are not so stratified, so that charities are superfluous. instead of donating to charity, spend your resources building a more egalitarian society.
You came in here with your absolutist utilitarian life above all else or we all die post just to respond with this because someone suggested you to stop eating meat. Beautiful.
That's not veganism, that's environmentalism. Veganism is recognizing that animals have the right not to be treated as property and have atrocities visited upon them. That the experiences of animals are real and matter. That their suffering is identical in nature to your own.
Avoiding animal products for the good of the environment has nothing to do with veganism. At least understand what your childish knee-jerk reactions are actually reacting to.
no, it doesnt. despite the existence of vegans, meat production increases every year, year over year.
And there's crime so you might as well rape. What a pathetic cop out. You're lucky there are so many people taking care of you.
And there’s crime so you might as well rape
the claim is that by not consuming factory farmed meat, you make an impact on the amount of emissions from its production. this is not true. it is also not analogous to raping anyone.
You honestly think that factory farm emissions font change if people don't give them money for their product? If your head was any further down in the sand, the magma would melt it.
Analogies don't indicate a similar level of morality. They are used to explain points to people who, for some reason, are unwilling or unable to otherwise understand.
Analogies don’t indicate a similar level of morality.
i didnt suggest they did. i'm saying that buying food is disanalagous to rape.
edit
to be clear, rape is wrong. buying food is not. you don't not-rape in order to reduce rape. you don't-rape because rape is wrong. by contrast, the goal of not-buying meat is to reduce the environmental impact of the meat industry. if that doesn't work, then not-buying meat is not a moral duty (at least, not for that reason. it's possible there is some other reason, but that's not the topic being discussed).
What if you buy food from someone you know murdered children to get it? It's so obviously wrong that buying food is never an immoral act. If you are interested in having philosophical conversations, then you really need to go back to the basics. At this point, you're trying to join an archery competition with a nurf toy. There are undeniably immoral ways to get food. Destroying the planet and torturing animals for slightly cheaper food that you do not absolutely need to survive is absolutely immoral. The reason it is so hard for you to see this is because you are an addict making excuses. Not because you are starving and need the cheapest, most despicable food.
It’s so obviously wrong that buying food is never an immoral act.
I allowed that there may be some reason buying some food might be immoral.
That's progress! You're on a good track. Not sure if you're the same one I sent this link to or not, but if you want to see the living conditions of the animals in the meat system are, here you go. You can judge the morality of it on your own.
you should give it trigger warning before your link gore
this YouTube video sucks
no one is torturing animals
Guess again. Almost certainly, you are contributing a significant portion of your energy and money to billionaires who torture animals in ways that you would be unable to even watch.
I've been wrong plenty before, but I would be astonished if you are capable of even viewing the atrocities that you commit. That's how disgusting the things people hire billionaires to do in the name of cheap meat it.
this YouTube video sucks
Yeah. It does suck to see what the average person chooses to spend their life paying people to do to animals. It especially sucks if you are one of the people paying them to do it.
no. I meant that video is long and poorly made. it sucks.
you should give it trigger warning before you link gore
This is what most people are paying to have happen every day.
no, they're not. this YouTube video does not show standard practices even in mid 2010s in Australia where it was filmed
Try and find out the standard practices of the factory farm where the meat from your local area comes from. They don't make it easy to find out, and if you do find out, it is currently much worse than what was happening 15 years ago. There is a good reason for this, too. In most regards, the rule is that they can't be too much worse than the average behavior. This is causing a horrific drift to worse and worse practices.
There is almost no push back on this because the average person is so reluctant to admit that they may be supporting something so vile that they stand behind whatever it is these farms do without having any actual idea of what's going on. Nobody is checking in on these places and coming out saying alls good other than the people making a ton of money off them.
If you don't know for sure that you get animal products from good places, then it is almost guaranteed that you don't. If you don't care to even find out, then you are the normal consumer, and you have accepted that your pleasure matters more than the treatment of the animals in them. You are not the minority. You are the merciless masses with no morality in this regard.
Because if not, then you are putting your own mere 20 minutes of pleasure higher than entire lives of tight, confined, indoor, away from their children and parents, raped, drugged, mutilated while alive of animals. There is no chance that if an animal was living like this on your property such that you had to see it daily, you wouldn't save it. As it is, nearly everyone happily hires billionaires to do it for them. Most of the time they hide behind "but I neeeeeed foooood!!!". I've not given those scumbags a penny in many years, and I'm alive, I'm not rich, and I am absolutely well nourished. I've recently done multiple marathons.
I thought we were discussing ecological impacts. this seems to be an entirely different r discussion.
The factory farming industry has very significant ecological impacts. In addition to the extreme suffering and misery that it causes to sentient beings. It's really a lose-lose.
it seems like muddying the waters. why is it so hard to focus on the effectiveness of consumer action in reducing ecological impacts? that is the topic
I see the people consuming the meat and animal products as consumers. I see the impact they have on the planet as ecological impact. I don't see how this is off topic.
ou are putting your own mere 20 minutes of pleasure higher than entire lives
the animal is dead long before i decide what to eat. my decision is not a value judgement on their lives.
The fact that you habitually pay people to do that animals is what causes them to do this to future animals. You understand this. It tells something that your best defense is this to excuse your actions.
people have free will, and so their choices cannot be said to be caused by anything other than their will. I am not responsible for what people in the meat industry do.
If someone pays someone else $1,000,000 to kill their ex-girlfriend, is only the murderer morally responsible?
early everyone happily hires billionaires to do it for them.
no one hires billionaires.
You pay someone to do something for you. Whether this is hiring or paying someone for a service is just semantics. There is an obvious reason why this sort of petty rebuttal is all you are able to use as a response.
this is all posturing and rhetoric. there is nothing of substance to rebutt here.
you accusation of addiction is a personal attack. it has no bearing on the truth of any of the claims I've made.
It absolutely does. You would be able to see it if the addiction in question was cheap animal products. Your brain is clouded by the fact that since food is required to live, then no food can be an addiction. You're simply wrong. You and many people can be addicted to cheap, unhealthy food that harms the planet. As a result of it, you excise your own deplorable behavior.
Your brain is clouded
are you a psychologist? are you my psychologist? frankly, you are acting irresponsibly and you should consider staying in your own expertise.
It doesn't take any specialty to see this. That's how obvious it is. When someone is deluding themselves to this extent, it is easy to see from the outside. Spend some time with someone who is addicted to things that you are not, and you will see.
you should stop practicing medicine before your local board finds you.
You’re simply wrong.
saying it doesn't make it true.
You are right about that. What makes you wrong is what you said, not what I said.
saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. I have been right this whole time
Oh, you said you're right, I guess that proves it then, well played.
You honestly think that factory farm emissions font change if people don’t give them money for their product?
have you tried that?
Yes, I have. The millions of us who choose not to help those assholes causes them to make less e missions. Unfortunately there are still people like you who live without caring about anyone but their own immediate gratification.
Yes, I have. The millions of us who choose not to help those assholes cause them to make less emissions. Unfortunately, there are still people like you who live without caring about anyone but their own immediate gratification.
If this is something you feel strongly about, then please stop eating factory farmed meat and animal products if you havent already. It is something you personally can actually do. It helps, and it will genuinely make you feel better. You may not have much power, but using the power you do have to help the team you claim to be on instead of the other team is a massive step forward.
Look, you're not really wrong, but you get that this shit is why people get irritated with vegans right? We were talking about being wasteful with energy resources for the sake of capitalism and you came in with a lazy segue to animal rights and nutritional health.
It's a conversation that we should be having, but it's also insufferable to constantly be shoehorning it into every conversation.
I don't agree. The comment points out the single most effektive move an individal without political nor financial power can make to cut personal co2-emissions with just a change of habit. It's not about veganism, animal rights or your health, it's just about sanity. Us still eating meat even though we know better is an incredibly dumb waste of energy for the sake of pleasure, exactly like this shitty powereating globe.
As long as >95% of the global population still consumes meat I understand the urge to bring this topic everywhere.
Oh, you're one of those "you can save the planet with your personal habits" people...
You enjoy your salad. I'm wondering what it takes to firebomb an oil refinery.
And you are one of those "every problem on the planet is the fault of someone else other than me so I can do whatever I want with no regard for it's affect on anyone else" people. Stay away from us if you can't be bothered to carry your own weight, you just drag down people who actually give a shit about something other than their own immediate selfish gratification.
Yes.
There are things in your power to change and things out of your power to change. What you are doing is sadly trying to excuse yourself from doing what you can do because of the existence of things you can't. It's absolutely because you are lazy. If everyone were like you, we would be screwed. As it is, the good things come from people who are not like you. You're welcome. As someone who tries to help, you are a burden we have to deal with, we would appreciate it if you picked up some rope and helped us pull instead of just laying on the sled complaining.
The Top 1% have the power to cause so much damage. You most likely belong to the Top 10% and your reasoning is exactly the same: "Not my fault. Why would I change, as long as everyone else doesn't." But Prioners dilemma makes it worse for everyone involved. So be a better person than them, be the change you want to see in them and stop pointing fingers like a spoiled kid.
Take a train instead of a flight. Cycle to work or take public transport instead of driving. Install a heat pump or solar in your house. There are a million things people can do to cut down their emissions that can be as effective as becoming herbivores, depending on each one's personal situation.
Plus, I don't have the numbers in my head but I'm pretty sure a locally grown fillet of chicken is more environmentally friendly than an avocado that has travelled across the Atlantic, so "buy local" would be probably better advice.
Yeah, so many things one should do. Yet nothing is as simple as paying for a different product next time you're shopping your groceries.
Avocados are way less harmfull to our planet than local meat. People keep bringing this up so often it's #20 on the Vegan Bullshit Bingo.
eating meat doesn't emit co2
Producing that meat does.
Note that the commenter didn’t say to quit all eating meat. They just said to quit eating “factory farmed” meat.
It’s not about eating meat, it’s about factory farming the meat and the damage to the environment caused by it.
... right. but your personal consumption doesn't change industrial output.
If you are spending money on factory farmed meat, you are financing the industry.
regardless of what i (or you) spend my (or your) money on, the industry continues to grow. if i get hit by a bus today on my way home from work and die, the meat industry, i guarantee you, will not notice. they will continue to grow, producing more meat this year than last, and more next year than this.
That is the cynical reason for not doing anything ever to help the world.
Why should I vote? I’m one person and that will never make a difference.
Why should I recycle? I’m just one person and that will never make a difference.
Why should I donate to charity? I’m just one person and that will never make a difference.
Anything that you could do individually to help the world will make zero noticeable impact so long as you are the only one doing it. But collectively, the more people doing it the more of an impact it will have.
And how do we get a larger community of people to start something like this? Oh, I don’t know, maybe send your idea out on a forum of like minded people (such as people expressing concern about the environment) and hope to inspire others that actually care to make a change in their own habits.
it's a very good reason not to do things that aren't effective.
From the cynical perspective, that makes 100% sense. Not everybody is so cynical, though.
if you were proposing an effective solution i'd be all for it. we've had vegans since the 1940s, and it has not stopped the growth of agriculture industries. they have become more efficient, but i'm not sure that's either good or attributable to vegans.
voting is disanalogous to buying food. big meat doesn't win or lose one day every four years.
well that's probably true. the real issue is the wasteful packaging produced, and no matter how much you recycle, that's never going to curb the amount of wasteful packaging produced.
let me know how that works out for you.
well, duh. but there are still effective things you can do to help the environment. buying beans isn't one of them.
that's not true.
often, charities are able to show exactly how much money it takes to accomplish their goals. $0.11/day to feed a child is one that's stuck with me. but regardless, i think charity is a societal ill and we should be building societies that are not so stratified, so that charities are superfluous. instead of donating to charity, spend your resources building a more egalitarian society.
You came in here with your absolutist utilitarian life above all else or we all die post just to respond with this because someone suggested you to stop eating meat. Beautiful.
That's not veganism, that's environmentalism. Veganism is recognizing that animals have the right not to be treated as property and have atrocities visited upon them. That the experiences of animals are real and matter. That their suffering is identical in nature to your own.
Avoiding animal products for the good of the environment has nothing to do with veganism. At least understand what your childish knee-jerk reactions are actually reacting to.
no, it doesnt. despite the existence of vegans, meat production increases every year, year over year.
And there's crime so you might as well rape. What a pathetic cop out. You're lucky there are so many people taking care of you.
the claim is that by not consuming factory farmed meat, you make an impact on the amount of emissions from its production. this is not true. it is also not analogous to raping anyone.
You honestly think that factory farm emissions font change if people don't give them money for their product? If your head was any further down in the sand, the magma would melt it.
Analogies don't indicate a similar level of morality. They are used to explain points to people who, for some reason, are unwilling or unable to otherwise understand.
i didnt suggest they did. i'm saying that buying food is disanalagous to rape.
edit
to be clear, rape is wrong. buying food is not. you don't not-rape in order to reduce rape. you don't-rape because rape is wrong. by contrast, the goal of not-buying meat is to reduce the environmental impact of the meat industry. if that doesn't work, then not-buying meat is not a moral duty (at least, not for that reason. it's possible there is some other reason, but that's not the topic being discussed).
What if you buy food from someone you know murdered children to get it? It's so obviously wrong that buying food is never an immoral act. If you are interested in having philosophical conversations, then you really need to go back to the basics. At this point, you're trying to join an archery competition with a nurf toy. There are undeniably immoral ways to get food. Destroying the planet and torturing animals for slightly cheaper food that you do not absolutely need to survive is absolutely immoral. The reason it is so hard for you to see this is because you are an addict making excuses. Not because you are starving and need the cheapest, most despicable food.
I allowed that there may be some reason buying some food might be immoral.
That's progress! You're on a good track. Not sure if you're the same one I sent this link to or not, but if you want to see the living conditions of the animals in the meat system are, here you go. You can judge the morality of it on your own.
https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
you should give it trigger warning before your link gore
this YouTube video sucks
no one is torturing animals
Guess again. Almost certainly, you are contributing a significant portion of your energy and money to billionaires who torture animals in ways that you would be unable to even watch.
https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
I've been wrong plenty before, but I would be astonished if you are capable of even viewing the atrocities that you commit. That's how disgusting the things people hire billionaires to do in the name of cheap meat it.
this YouTube video sucks
Yeah. It does suck to see what the average person chooses to spend their life paying people to do to animals. It especially sucks if you are one of the people paying them to do it.
no. I meant that video is long and poorly made. it sucks.
you should give it trigger warning before you link gore
This is what most people are paying to have happen every day.
no, they're not. this YouTube video does not show standard practices even in mid 2010s in Australia where it was filmed
Try and find out the standard practices of the factory farm where the meat from your local area comes from. They don't make it easy to find out, and if you do find out, it is currently much worse than what was happening 15 years ago. There is a good reason for this, too. In most regards, the rule is that they can't be too much worse than the average behavior. This is causing a horrific drift to worse and worse practices.
There is almost no push back on this because the average person is so reluctant to admit that they may be supporting something so vile that they stand behind whatever it is these farms do without having any actual idea of what's going on. Nobody is checking in on these places and coming out saying alls good other than the people making a ton of money off them.
If you don't know for sure that you get animal products from good places, then it is almost guaranteed that you don't. If you don't care to even find out, then you are the normal consumer, and you have accepted that your pleasure matters more than the treatment of the animals in them. You are not the minority. You are the merciless masses with no morality in this regard.
i am not in your youtube video at all. don't lie.
You hire these people because you are too ashamed or disgusted to do it yourself, that's why you can't ven view what you pay people to do.
I didn't hire any of those people
why is the bar "absolute need for survival"?
Because if not, then you are putting your own mere 20 minutes of pleasure higher than entire lives of tight, confined, indoor, away from their children and parents, raped, drugged, mutilated while alive of animals. There is no chance that if an animal was living like this on your property such that you had to see it daily, you wouldn't save it. As it is, nearly everyone happily hires billionaires to do it for them. Most of the time they hide behind "but I neeeeeed foooood!!!". I've not given those scumbags a penny in many years, and I'm alive, I'm not rich, and I am absolutely well nourished. I've recently done multiple marathons.
I thought we were discussing ecological impacts. this seems to be an entirely different r discussion.
The factory farming industry has very significant ecological impacts. In addition to the extreme suffering and misery that it causes to sentient beings. It's really a lose-lose.
it seems like muddying the waters. why is it so hard to focus on the effectiveness of consumer action in reducing ecological impacts? that is the topic
I see the people consuming the meat and animal products as consumers. I see the impact they have on the planet as ecological impact. I don't see how this is off topic.
the animal is dead long before i decide what to eat. my decision is not a value judgement on their lives.
The fact that you habitually pay people to do that animals is what causes them to do this to future animals. You understand this. It tells something that your best defense is this to excuse your actions.
people have free will, and so their choices cannot be said to be caused by anything other than their will. I am not responsible for what people in the meat industry do.
If someone pays someone else $1,000,000 to kill their ex-girlfriend, is only the murderer morally responsible?
no one hires billionaires.
You pay someone to do something for you. Whether this is hiring or paying someone for a service is just semantics. There is an obvious reason why this sort of petty rebuttal is all you are able to use as a response.
this is all posturing and rhetoric. there is nothing of substance to rebutt here.
you accusation of addiction is a personal attack. it has no bearing on the truth of any of the claims I've made.
It absolutely does. You would be able to see it if the addiction in question was cheap animal products. Your brain is clouded by the fact that since food is required to live, then no food can be an addiction. You're simply wrong. You and many people can be addicted to cheap, unhealthy food that harms the planet. As a result of it, you excise your own deplorable behavior.
are you a psychologist? are you my psychologist? frankly, you are acting irresponsibly and you should consider staying in your own expertise.
It doesn't take any specialty to see this. That's how obvious it is. When someone is deluding themselves to this extent, it is easy to see from the outside. Spend some time with someone who is addicted to things that you are not, and you will see.
you should stop practicing medicine before your local board finds you.
saying it doesn't make it true.
You are right about that. What makes you wrong is what you said, not what I said.
saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. I have been right this whole time
Oh, you said you're right, I guess that proves it then, well played.
have you tried that?
Yes, I have. The millions of us who choose not to help those assholes causes them to make less e missions. Unfortunately there are still people like you who live without caring about anyone but their own immediate gratification.
that has never happened
Yes, I have. The millions of us who choose not to help those assholes cause them to make less emissions. Unfortunately, there are still people like you who live without caring about anyone but their own immediate gratification.
this is a thought terminating cliche
No it doesn't, Commie
you're cherrypicking.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/meat-production-tonnes?tab=chart&country=~OWID_WRL
What is your point?
my point is that buying meat (or not) has no impact on the environment.