Israel may be an ethnostate, but the actions of its leadership are not representative of the Jewish population as a whole. That is to say, stop disingenuously conflating criticism of a genocidal government with antisemitism.
An 'ethnostate' significantly more ethnically and religiously diverse than any country in Europe, the Middle East or Asia.
Japan is 99% ethnic Yamato Japanese. Is Japan an ethnostate? And should they be criticised for this?
73% of Israelis are Jews, more than half of which are Middle Eastern (Mizrahi) Jews, i.e. zero connection to Europe. The other 27% of Israeli citizens are usually Arabs who are either Muslim, Christian, Druze, Bedouin, Circassians, Baha’i, Armenians, Samaritans, etc. They have the same civil, legal, political and religious rights as Jewish Israelis. They’re represented at every level of government, including in the parliament with an explicitly Arabist political party that has once served in a coalition government.
And it’s… Israel that’s the ‘ethnostate’. Got it.
Accusing Jews of being unable to stop themselves from murdering children is unambiguous antisemitism with a long history dating back to the Middle Ages.
It's evident that you're cherry-picking tangential details to argue against, so let me say this in unambiguous terms:
Accusing Jews of being unable to stop themselves from murdering children is unambiguous antisemitism with a long history dating back to the Middle Ages.
People here are not accusing Jews of doing anything. We aren't using "Israel" as a stand-in or dogwhisle for ethnically Jewish people or the Jewish religion.
People are accusing the government of Israel of being unwilling to refrain from committing war crimes.
Yes, I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that Israel alone among all the countries in the world, including Syria (where Assad slaughtered more than half a million Syrians), China (engaged in the genocide of the Uyghurs) and Azerbaijan (who literally ethnically cleansed Nagorno-Karabakh of Armenians just last year), is the only one accused of being bloodthirsty child-murderers who regard non-Jewish children as less than human.
Couldn't be that a key theme of antisemitism over 2,000 years retains a deep hold on people's imaginations and biases, influencing their views today even if they aren't fully cognisant of, could it?
Nah. It's just a coincidence that it's only the Jewish state accused of this.
I'm sorry you must have slept through the last decade?
Those accusations were absolutely there. They just weren't a conversation because everyone agreed. Why are you defending a genocidal regime?
If I believed that Israel was a genocidal "regime" (by which you mean democratic government) I wouldn't be defending it.
So you're willing to link to the blood libel Wikipedia page but you deny the existence of this genocide. I guess "Never Again" had an asterisk?
Let me give you the full sentence:
"Never again will the Jewish people put their safety and security in the hands of non-Jews."
Non-Jews were given a test with the Holocaust and we comprehensively failed.
From now on, the Jewish people will only ever trust themselves to protect them. Rightly so, in my view.
And yes, I do deny there's a genocide in Gaza. If they wanted to just eradicate them then this war would have been over many months ago.
Yeah you're going to need to source that. Never Again is a slogan referring to the Holocaust. At best some people say it means just for Jews, but I think we can all agree genocide is bad, right?
I think we can all agree that the Jews and only the Jews have the right to determine what that phrase, which they coined, meant to them.
It's not Blood Libel if the actual government is doing it.
Antisemites have always believed this. This isn't new. The people who claimed Jews were intent on slaughtering non-Jewish children because they saw them as sub-human did also believe that wholeheartedly. It wasn't just a ruse.
Everyone rational has always believed this. The government of Israel is not the Jewish people any more than the government of ISIS was representative of Muslims.
Everyone rational has always believed this.
By openly identifying your endorsement of an ancient and false antisemitic trope, you've invalidated your right to have any opinion about anything.
Bye.
You can wail and gnash your teeth all you want. The government of Israel will never represent Judaism.
Did you mean to reply to my comment? Not sure how that's relevant.
Anyway, you endorse a 1,500 year old antisemitic conspiracy theory, so I'm not sure why you think you deserve to be treated with respect or dignity.
If saying the government of Israel is not all of Judaism is blood libel then everything is blood libel and the label is meaningless.
Just to be clear then:
Are you claiming that the Jewish governing party, made up of Jewish individuals, in the Jewish State (Israel) are incapable of holding back their bloodlust to slaughter non-Jewish children on the basis that they see them as lesser than Jewish children?
Take a moment. Think about it. Because we both know that this is in fact what you have been claiming. And maybe you want to walk that back, and self-reflect, and think whether maybe you've gone wrong at some point in your justifiable attempt to seek justice for oppressed peoples.
At the point they're publicly calling those kids names while bombing them... Yes it's pretty clear they believe Palestinians are subhuman. And if that's blood libel then so is saying Hitler believed Jews to be sub human
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot commit genocide and tell the world they're the racists because they called you out.
You aren't being clever by doubling down on an antisemitic canard.
Says the person trying to link criticism of Israel to antisemitism.
Everyone is tired of this nonsense. Israel
Is not Jewish people, many Jews outright hate the state. You can freely attack and criticise Israel without it being a reflection on Jewish people.
The only person who would think otherwise is an actual antisemite.
Everyone is tired of this nonsense.
Here's a fun fact for you:
Even naming it—that is, calling out bigotry against Jews—can be classed as yet another sign of assumed evil intent, of Jews attacking beloved principles of justice for all. In an April 2023 lecture, David Nirenberg, the historian, presented the example of an activist with a large following whose boundary-pushing rhetoric met with accusations of anti-Semitism. The activist pointed out, as Nirenberg put it, that anti-Semitism “was merely an accusation that Jews used to silence criticism and squash free speech.” He brought libel lawsuits against newspapers that accused him of anti-Semitism, and won them. It is unfortunate for those making this argument today that this activist was named Adolf Hitler.
None of this is new. Jews have seen all of this before.
Israel Is not Jewish people, many Jews outright hate the state.
No, they don't. 88% of British Jews have been to Israel at least once, and 73% say that they feel very or somewhat attached to the country. Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and a similar share say they follow news about the Jewish state at least somewhat closely. There aren't any longer sizeable Jewish populations outside of the English-speaking or Hebrew-speaking world to compare with, they were all killed or expelled in the last century. The lesson of the 20th century to the Jews was that you either spoke English or Hebrew or you died.
You can freely attack and criticise Israel without it being a reflection on Jewish people.
Depends on the criticism.
The only person who would think otherwise is an actual antisemite.
Projection.
No one cares about your hateful nonsense.
Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Judaism.
End of fucking story.
No wonder Lemmy is a Jew-free, Judenrein website with people like you dominating it.
Don’t pull that crap.
One of the bloody mods of this community is Jewish. Many users on the Fediverse are Jewish. Being Jewish does not mean you support Israel.
Criticism of Israel is not critics of Judaism. Get that through your head.
Uhuh
What do you even mean by "support Israel"?
There are almost no Jews anywhere in the world who would oppose the existence of the State of Israel. As I just pointed out, an overwhelming majority of British and American Jews see Israel as a central part of their Jewish identity, have visited, have relatives there, and feel an emotional connection to it.
Naturei Karta are a tiny fringe minority. If you're thinking they represent some sort of larger phenomenon you're living in a bubble.
Sounds like a problem with your instance.
https://lemmy.world/c/jewish doesn’t even appear in your screenshot for starters, so it’s obvious you’re not seeing a full list of results.
But more importantly, Jewish people are under no obligation to make a Lemmy community and post about their religion, just as any one else isn’t. An absence of such community does not reflect an absence of followers.
https://lemmy.world/c/jewish doesn’t even appear in your screenshot for starters, so it’s obvious you’re not seeing a full list of results.
81 subscribers
Okay, cool, that's good to know.
What does /c/Jewish think about the idea of abolishing the State of Israel? Do they agree with you about antisemitism? Have you tried engaging with them about that?
But more importantly, Jewish people are under no obligation to make a Lemmy community and post about their religion, just as any one else isn’t. An absence of such community does not reflect an absence of followers.
It does in fact reflect an absence of followers. Jews do not feel welcome or safe among radical leftists, who tend to dominate Lemmy. They therefore stay away.
Also, here's a comparison:
You don't genuinely think that there's no problem here? Most Jews don't move from Reddit to Lemmy because Lemmy is dominated by left-wing people, and left-wing people are the current threat to Jews.
The number of subscribers does not matter.
This shows you do not access to have accurate information about Lemmy. As such any claims you wish to make are irrelevant.
You have no information to add and as we’ve already discussed criticism of Israel is not criticism of Judaism, so I’ll be leaving now.
Israel can’t stop slaughtering children.
Wont, not can't. Can't implies that it's not a choice.
They feel compelled by the fact they don't think the children are human
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
Well that's fucked, but nobody said anything about Christians or any kind of rituals, I think it was in reference to the ongoing genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
Israel may be an ethnostate, but the actions of its leadership are not representative of the Jewish population as a whole. That is to say, stop disingenuously conflating criticism of a genocidal government with antisemitism.
An 'ethnostate' significantly more ethnically and religiously diverse than any country in Europe, the Middle East or Asia.
Japan is 99% ethnic Yamato Japanese. Is Japan an ethnostate? And should they be criticised for this?
73% of Israelis are Jews, more than half of which are Middle Eastern (Mizrahi) Jews, i.e. zero connection to Europe. The other 27% of Israeli citizens are usually Arabs who are either Muslim, Christian, Druze, Bedouin, Circassians, Baha’i, Armenians, Samaritans, etc. They have the same civil, legal, political and religious rights as Jewish Israelis. They’re represented at every level of government, including in the parliament with an explicitly Arabist political party that has once served in a coalition government.
And it’s… Israel that’s the ‘ethnostate’. Got it.
Accusing Jews of being unable to stop themselves from murdering children is unambiguous antisemitism with a long history dating back to the Middle Ages.
It's evident that you're cherry-picking tangential details to argue against, so let me say this in unambiguous terms:
People here are not accusing Jews of doing anything. We aren't using "Israel" as a stand-in or dogwhisle for ethnically Jewish people or the Jewish religion.
People are accusing the government of Israel of being unwilling to refrain from committing war crimes.
Yes, I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that Israel alone among all the countries in the world, including Syria (where Assad slaughtered more than half a million Syrians), China (engaged in the genocide of the Uyghurs) and Azerbaijan (who literally ethnically cleansed Nagorno-Karabakh of Armenians just last year), is the only one accused of being bloodthirsty child-murderers who regard non-Jewish children as less than human.
Couldn't be that a key theme of antisemitism over 2,000 years retains a deep hold on people's imaginations and biases, influencing their views today even if they aren't fully cognisant of, could it?
Nah. It's just a coincidence that it's only the Jewish state accused of this.
I'm sorry you must have slept through the last decade?
Those accusations were absolutely there. They just weren't a conversation because everyone agreed. Why are you defending a genocidal regime?
If I believed that Israel was a genocidal "regime" (by which you mean democratic government) I wouldn't be defending it.
So you're willing to link to the blood libel Wikipedia page but you deny the existence of this genocide. I guess "Never Again" had an asterisk?
Let me give you the full sentence:
"Never again will the Jewish people put their safety and security in the hands of non-Jews."
Non-Jews were given a test with the Holocaust and we comprehensively failed.
From now on, the Jewish people will only ever trust themselves to protect them. Rightly so, in my view.
And yes, I do deny there's a genocide in Gaza. If they wanted to just eradicate them then this war would have been over many months ago.
Yeah you're going to need to source that. Never Again is a slogan referring to the Holocaust. At best some people say it means just for Jews, but I think we can all agree genocide is bad, right?
I think we can all agree that the Jews and only the Jews have the right to determine what that phrase, which they coined, meant to them.
It's not Blood Libel if the actual government is doing it.
Antisemites have always believed this. This isn't new. The people who claimed Jews were intent on slaughtering non-Jewish children because they saw them as sub-human did also believe that wholeheartedly. It wasn't just a ruse.
Everyone rational has always believed this. The government of Israel is not the Jewish people any more than the government of ISIS was representative of Muslims.
By openly identifying your endorsement of an ancient and false antisemitic trope, you've invalidated your right to have any opinion about anything.
Bye.
You can wail and gnash your teeth all you want. The government of Israel will never represent Judaism.
Did you mean to reply to my comment? Not sure how that's relevant.
Anyway, you endorse a 1,500 year old antisemitic conspiracy theory, so I'm not sure why you think you deserve to be treated with respect or dignity.
If saying the government of Israel is not all of Judaism is blood libel then everything is blood libel and the label is meaningless.
Just to be clear then:
Are you claiming that the Jewish governing party, made up of Jewish individuals, in the Jewish State (Israel) are incapable of holding back their bloodlust to slaughter non-Jewish children on the basis that they see them as lesser than Jewish children?
Take a moment. Think about it. Because we both know that this is in fact what you have been claiming. And maybe you want to walk that back, and self-reflect, and think whether maybe you've gone wrong at some point in your justifiable attempt to seek justice for oppressed peoples.
At the point they're publicly calling those kids names while bombing them... Yes it's pretty clear they believe Palestinians are subhuman. And if that's blood libel then so is saying Hitler believed Jews to be sub human
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot commit genocide and tell the world they're the racists because they called you out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
Don’t be so antisemetic.
Israel isn’t Jewish people.
You aren't being clever by doubling down on an antisemitic canard.
Says the person trying to link criticism of Israel to antisemitism.
Everyone is tired of this nonsense. Israel Is not Jewish people, many Jews outright hate the state. You can freely attack and criticise Israel without it being a reflection on Jewish people.
The only person who would think otherwise is an actual antisemite.
Here's a fun fact for you:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/02/jewish-anti-semitism-harvard-claudine-gay-zionism/677454/
None of this is new. Jews have seen all of this before.
No, they don't. 88% of British Jews have been to Israel at least once, and 73% say that they feel very or somewhat attached to the country. Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and a similar share say they follow news about the Jewish state at least somewhat closely. There aren't any longer sizeable Jewish populations outside of the English-speaking or Hebrew-speaking world to compare with, they were all killed or expelled in the last century. The lesson of the 20th century to the Jews was that you either spoke English or Hebrew or you died.
Depends on the criticism.
Projection.
No one cares about your hateful nonsense.
Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Judaism.
End of fucking story.
No wonder Lemmy is a Jew-free, Judenrein website with people like you dominating it.
Don’t pull that crap.
One of the bloody mods of this community is Jewish. Many users on the Fediverse are Jewish. Being Jewish does not mean you support Israel.
Criticism of Israel is not critics of Judaism. Get that through your head.
Uhuh
What do you even mean by "support Israel"?
There are almost no Jews anywhere in the world who would oppose the existence of the State of Israel. As I just pointed out, an overwhelming majority of British and American Jews see Israel as a central part of their Jewish identity, have visited, have relatives there, and feel an emotional connection to it.
Naturei Karta are a tiny fringe minority. If you're thinking they represent some sort of larger phenomenon you're living in a bubble.
Sounds like a problem with your instance.
https://lemmy.world/c/jewish doesn’t even appear in your screenshot for starters, so it’s obvious you’re not seeing a full list of results.
But more importantly, Jewish people are under no obligation to make a Lemmy community and post about their religion, just as any one else isn’t. An absence of such community does not reflect an absence of followers.
Okay, cool, that's good to know.
What does /c/Jewish think about the idea of abolishing the State of Israel? Do they agree with you about antisemitism? Have you tried engaging with them about that?
It does in fact reflect an absence of followers. Jews do not feel welcome or safe among radical leftists, who tend to dominate Lemmy. They therefore stay away.
Also, here's a comparison:
You don't genuinely think that there's no problem here? Most Jews don't move from Reddit to Lemmy because Lemmy is dominated by left-wing people, and left-wing people are the current threat to Jews.
The number of subscribers does not matter.
This shows you do not access to have accurate information about Lemmy. As such any claims you wish to make are irrelevant.
You have no information to add and as we’ve already discussed criticism of Israel is not criticism of Judaism, so I’ll be leaving now.