(Seizing the state and then slowly reforming it is still slowly reforming it)
We know how feasible communist revolutions are. They end up in authoritarianism, not in communism.
It seems like communism works best when it's entered into voluntarily, which the capital class never will.
Tell that to Salvador Allende. Without the military completly on your side the US will sponsor a coup and instal the most brutal dictator in your countries history after they kill you.
United States incursions may apply
Socialism is working out fairly well for the Zapatistas rn. It worked out well for Catalonia until the PCE and the Republicans backstabbed the POUM and CNT, leading to the fascists winning against a weak and broken-up left.
People think they can change the system until the system changes them.
MLs are liberals who hate the word "liberal" and love being in a personality cult. They have so much in common with MAGA it makes sense that they're trying to get Trump re-elected.
"Vote for Biden THEN move him left! (never mind that the DNC went to court to ensure their right to run whoever they want, and that both parties move the goalposts anytime a 3rd party comes close to inclusion, completely ensuring zero methods to move anybody to the left)"
Actually, the Stalinists are the ones saying not to vote for Biden.
Why not both? Get reforms done now to get some immediate alleviation and garner more popular support, and prepare for a revolution asap.
Is it acceptable to say I’m a liberal while US democrats by and large aren’t?
Still better than the alternative by a mile, but that’s a super low bar.
while US democrats by and large aren’t
I'm not sure what you mean?
They don't know what they mean either, but "MLs are liberals" is a pretty spicy take too.
On the other hand, it drives them nuts even as they say the same thing about democratic socialists, so
democratic socialists
yet to me this is the platonic ideal - it encompasses the principals without other baggage. and we have multiple examples in eu countries where it's produced results that we desperately need - universal healthcare, cheap education, and sane worker rights. I know many americans would look askew at the socialists part, but confronting head on and producing results is what will lead to success, not shying from alienating those who will never support it because... reasons.
I think they mean that the US Democratic Party does not stand for any of the values of liberalism besides capitalism.
This is an anti-historical take. You can disagree with ML methods or ideology while still acknowledging where they have had material success in bringing about wins for the working class.
Uhh no, as you can clearly see the ML is the NPC so they’re unequivocally in the wrong here. Duh.
Really, that's very interesting. I didn't know marxist-leninists did any communist revolutions. I thought they only did socialist revolutions, and then expected the state to magically wither away over time. Of course, as you and I both know, Marx defined communism as stateless, so socialism with a state is not communism, and a revolution that doesn't immediately dismantle the state isn't a revolution producing communism. Could you give me any historical examples of marxist-leninists doing communist revolutions? Because honestly I thought only anarchists had ever done a real communist revolution.
We know how feasible communist revolutions are. They end up in authoritarianism, not in communism.
It seems like communism works best when it's entered into voluntarily, which the capital class never will.
Tell that to Salvador Allende. Without the military completly on your side the US will sponsor a coup and instal the most brutal dictator in your countries history after they kill you.
United States incursions may apply
Socialism is working out fairly well for the Zapatistas rn. It worked out well for Catalonia until the PCE and the Republicans backstabbed the POUM and CNT, leading to the fascists winning against a weak and broken-up left.
People think they can change the system until the system changes them.
MLs are liberals who hate the word "liberal" and love being in a personality cult. They have so much in common with MAGA it makes sense that they're trying to get Trump re-elected.
"Vote for Biden THEN move him left! (never mind that the DNC went to court to ensure their right to run whoever they want, and that both parties move the goalposts anytime a 3rd party comes close to inclusion, completely ensuring zero methods to move anybody to the left)"
Actually, the Stalinists are the ones saying not to vote for Biden.
Why not both? Get reforms done now to get some immediate alleviation and garner more popular support, and prepare for a revolution asap.
Is it acceptable to say I’m a liberal while US democrats by and large aren’t?
Still better than the alternative by a mile, but that’s a super low bar.
I'm not sure what you mean?
They don't know what they mean either, but "MLs are liberals" is a pretty spicy take too.
On the other hand, it drives them nuts even as they say the same thing about democratic socialists, so
yet to me this is the platonic ideal - it encompasses the principals without other baggage. and we have multiple examples in eu countries where it's produced results that we desperately need - universal healthcare, cheap education, and sane worker rights. I know many americans would look askew at the socialists part, but confronting head on and producing results is what will lead to success, not shying from alienating those who will never support it because... reasons.
I think they mean that the US Democratic Party does not stand for any of the values of liberalism besides capitalism.
This is an anti-historical take. You can disagree with ML methods or ideology while still acknowledging where they have had material success in bringing about wins for the working class.
Uhh no, as you can clearly see the ML is the NPC so they’re unequivocally in the wrong here. Duh.
Really, that's very interesting. I didn't know marxist-leninists did any communist revolutions. I thought they only did socialist revolutions, and then expected the state to magically wither away over time. Of course, as you and I both know, Marx defined communism as stateless, so socialism with a state is not communism, and a revolution that doesn't immediately dismantle the state isn't a revolution producing communism. Could you give me any historical examples of marxist-leninists doing communist revolutions? Because honestly I thought only anarchists had ever done a real communist revolution.