But at the same time I'm no fan of nuclear war either.
The escalation of the war has to stop or else we will all feel the fallout of this war.
I'm pretty much a dove through and through with one exception: you must be able to fight to defend the sovereignty of your country.
It is Russia that started the tension, then the conflict, and then the war. Appeasing a megalomaniac and hoping it will make them more measured is delusional.
Then as a peace loving person ... why support continued fighting?
Fighting Russia only leads to more war and towards what outcome? Completely defeat, embarrass and throw Russia up against a wall they can't back out of? They would be forced into a corner where they would eventually use a nuclear option. If they are given the choice between defeat or suicide ... they might take themselves and millions of people with them.
I'm all in support of Ukrainian sovereignty and fighting for one's country ... but if it means risking the lives of millions of people around the world ... what sense does that make?
If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?
"If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?"
Do you want us to spend billions on an ad campaign asking Russia to please stop invading a country? Uh I don't know if you are history deaf or not but Russia will not stop, unless it is stopped.
Something we Americans should really stick to is the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line. Russia is a terrorist state, and they have proven time and time again they cannot be reasoned with.
Then as a peace loving person … why support continued fighting?
Pacifism is when I get to kick people and they don't do anything about it.
why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?
...MDMA in Moscow's water supply something along that line?
Russia's goal is genocide. If you train were to give up, there will be millions of people put to death and sent to concentration camps in Siberia to die. So they really don't have any other option. We have seen time and time again Russia commit crimes against humanity including to this day the continued operation of the gulag system.
Russia isn't going to risk the world launching a dozen nukes at them just so they can launch one at Ukraine.
As much as that makes sense and everyone probably agrees .... then why are western nations hedging their bets that the other side won't launch a missile, even as they escalate the fighting.
That is Russian Roulette on a global level if you ask me.
The problem is really alternatives. Give into Russias demands and they will do the same again soon. It will also send a message to China for example and make war more likely in the long run.
What kind of peace agreement would you see possible?
Btw if you're interested on the topic of the risk of nuclear war related to Ukraine there's a good video by Lonerbox in which he also explains the logic of the side you're arguing with here in more detail.
Apart from the other points that have been raised: basically every recent report about Ukrainian troops has gotten a bit in it along the lines of "they're exhausted and have taken heavy losses, but are in good spirits and willing to fight on".
Especially if you read what individual soldiers are saying, I get the feeling that this war would not end, even if support to Ukraine where to vanish completely (good luck convincing Poland, the Baltics and Nordics). You'd just get Afghanistan, but the invaders are openly genocidal and don't give a fuck about civilians at the best of times.
I'm no fan of Russia
But at the same time I'm no fan of nuclear war either.
The escalation of the war has to stop or else we will all feel the fallout of this war.
I'm pretty much a dove through and through with one exception: you must be able to fight to defend the sovereignty of your country.
It is Russia that started the tension, then the conflict, and then the war. Appeasing a megalomaniac and hoping it will make them more measured is delusional.
Then as a peace loving person ... why support continued fighting?
Fighting Russia only leads to more war and towards what outcome? Completely defeat, embarrass and throw Russia up against a wall they can't back out of? They would be forced into a corner where they would eventually use a nuclear option. If they are given the choice between defeat or suicide ... they might take themselves and millions of people with them.
I'm all in support of Ukrainian sovereignty and fighting for one's country ... but if it means risking the lives of millions of people around the world ... what sense does that make?
If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?
"If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?"
Do you want us to spend billions on an ad campaign asking Russia to please stop invading a country? Uh I don't know if you are history deaf or not but Russia will not stop, unless it is stopped.
Something we Americans should really stick to is the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line. Russia is a terrorist state, and they have proven time and time again they cannot be reasoned with.
Pacifism is when I get to kick people and they don't do anything about it.
...MDMA in Moscow's water supply something along that line?
Russia's goal is genocide. If you train were to give up, there will be millions of people put to death and sent to concentration camps in Siberia to die. So they really don't have any other option. We have seen time and time again Russia commit crimes against humanity including to this day the continued operation of the gulag system.
Russia isn't going to risk the world launching a dozen nukes at them just so they can launch one at Ukraine.
As much as that makes sense and everyone probably agrees .... then why are western nations hedging their bets that the other side won't launch a missile, even as they escalate the fighting.
That is Russian Roulette on a global level if you ask me.
The problem is really alternatives. Give into Russias demands and they will do the same again soon. It will also send a message to China for example and make war more likely in the long run.
What kind of peace agreement would you see possible?
Btw if you're interested on the topic of the risk of nuclear war related to Ukraine there's a good video by Lonerbox in which he also explains the logic of the side you're arguing with here in more detail.
Apart from the other points that have been raised: basically every recent report about Ukrainian troops has gotten a bit in it along the lines of "they're exhausted and have taken heavy losses, but are in good spirits and willing to fight on".
Especially if you read what individual soldiers are saying, I get the feeling that this war would not end, even if support to Ukraine where to vanish completely (good luck convincing Poland, the Baltics and Nordics). You'd just get Afghanistan, but the invaders are openly genocidal and don't give a fuck about civilians at the best of times.
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