Most of what we're sending isn't money, it's assets. Assets that were constructed to fight China and Russia at the same time if needed. They were literally built and maintained in waiting for a fight with Russia. Sending them to make Russia weaker lowers the stockpile we need to maintain. The number of dollars sent over isn't real dollars, it's the value of assets (at the date of construction, not after technology advanced). We were literally spending money to keep them ready in case they were needed, and now they're needed and we no longer have to spend money on them.
We are spending some new money on aid and things, but most of the military stuff is stuff we already had kicking around, not new spending to build new stuff to send over. Also, sure we'll have to replace some, but we would anyway as technology advances, and it also won't be to the same level as Russia is weaker.
it’s the value of assets (at the date of construction, not after technology advanced).
Arguably much of it should be valued at negative monetary value as with Ukraine taking it the US won't have to pay to decommission it. Especially ammunition gets expensive (tanks you can just dump in a desert somewhere).
Most of what we’re sending isn’t money, it’s assets.
Err... what? Who paid for those 'assets'? Those 'assets' can't be liquidated for capital?
Lol, 35 upvotes. Man, this next generation sucks. Not a critical thinker among you.
No, the assets can't really just be liquidated for capital. They're military equipment, and they've lost value over time anyway so the real value is less than the listed price. What can be done is giving them to another country for promises in the future.
It's not "another country's war"
It absolutely is.
And it's frustrating watching the extent to which our country is neglected in order to pursue ventures like this over, and over, and over again.
Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but our government neglected us long before this war and will continue to neglect us long after.
It's an entire planet's war.
Idk tbh. We are all by ourselves over here. I do wish we could at least reconsider military spending in the US. But now they seem damned and determined to fight a war with russia and china.
Personally I like how we are involved in this war. We send equipment which we can then 100% determine the efficacy of. It doesn't cost any American lives. I do also recognize that our country seems to be crumbling
I understand, unfortunately our country's democracy is fucking broken and has been catering to corporate interests for the majority of its history. However whether we choose to fund Ukraine or not this will not change, ultimately we need to reform the US government so that the citizens get true representation.
I mean, I get that.
The 98% of voters who choose the party line every time do not give a fuck about anything other than what they're told by their favorite news broadcast, and the news broadcasts always make the war seem like the most important issue. I just don't think it should be too much to ask that people take a moment to think about the fact that the neglect of our own people in favor of warmongering (and we are warmongering, even if we don't have bodies in Russia) has real, tangible negative effects here. And by voting pro-war every two years, all of them are contributing to it, whether they claim to be anti-war or not.
In some ways it's a great move beyond the human cost, Russian uses up their military personnel, equipment, and resources while NATO and the US commit some of their resources and older equipment to the cause but nothing new and no losses of people beyond the Ukrainians in theory for the most part.
I know many in the US think the Russians are good guys now (Patton is probably doing cartwheels in his grave at the thought, but Nazis are good now too so maybe not) but if there is going to be future conflict, the Russian machine will be spent and tired which will help some.
We can always tax the rich to solve our problems.
It's not that the money isn't there, lol. We just choose not to use it.
Putin has been claiming that Ukraine invaded him all along, so now what? "Oh they are invading for realsies." I've been hoping that Ukraine would call him on his bluff.
It ain't no fun when the bunny's got the gun.
I'm no fan of Russia
But at the same time I'm no fan of nuclear war either.
The escalation of the war has to stop or else we will all feel the fallout of this war.
I'm pretty much a dove through and through with one exception: you must be able to fight to defend the sovereignty of your country.
It is Russia that started the tension, then the conflict, and then the war. Appeasing a megalomaniac and hoping it will make them more measured is delusional.
Then as a peace loving person ... why support continued fighting?
Fighting Russia only leads to more war and towards what outcome? Completely defeat, embarrass and throw Russia up against a wall they can't back out of? They would be forced into a corner where they would eventually use a nuclear option. If they are given the choice between defeat or suicide ... they might take themselves and millions of people with them.
I'm all in support of Ukrainian sovereignty and fighting for one's country ... but if it means risking the lives of millions of people around the world ... what sense does that make?
If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?
"If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?"
Do you want us to spend billions on an ad campaign asking Russia to please stop invading a country? Uh I don't know if you are history deaf or not but Russia will not stop, unless it is stopped.
Something we Americans should really stick to is the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line. Russia is a terrorist state, and they have proven time and time again they cannot be reasoned with.
Then as a peace loving person … why support continued fighting?
Pacifism is when I get to kick people and they don't do anything about it.
why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?
...MDMA in Moscow's water supply something along that line?
Russia's goal is genocide. If you train were to give up, there will be millions of people put to death and sent to concentration camps in Siberia to die. So they really don't have any other option. We have seen time and time again Russia commit crimes against humanity including to this day the continued operation of the gulag system.
Russia isn't going to risk the world launching a dozen nukes at them just so they can launch one at Ukraine.
As much as that makes sense and everyone probably agrees .... then why are western nations hedging their bets that the other side won't launch a missile, even as they escalate the fighting.
That is Russian Roulette on a global level if you ask me.
The problem is really alternatives. Give into Russias demands and they will do the same again soon. It will also send a message to China for example and make war more likely in the long run.
What kind of peace agreement would you see possible?
Btw if you're interested on the topic of the risk of nuclear war related to Ukraine there's a good video by Lonerbox in which he also explains the logic of the side you're arguing with here in more detail.
Apart from the other points that have been raised: basically every recent report about Ukrainian troops has gotten a bit in it along the lines of "they're exhausted and have taken heavy losses, but are in good spirits and willing to fight on".
Especially if you read what individual soldiers are saying, I get the feeling that this war would not end, even if support to Ukraine where to vanish completely (good luck convincing Poland, the Baltics and Nordics). You'd just get Afghanistan, but the invaders are openly genocidal and don't give a fuck about civilians at the best of times.
Ukrain just said that it is the work of saboteurs in Russia. Noice.
She knows it's a multi-kill!
How do I stop these images from appearing?
They are getting really obnoxious.
I'm sure russians will achieve that air superiority any day now...
Well, they did get one plane today.
Ayoo
Good. Make Russians be afraid and push them to turn on Putin. Something they should have done 20 years ago.
Slava Ukraini. Now to deliver more of those F-16s for Ukraine.
The heat wave is causing potentially disastrous issues for US infrastructure, but sure, absolutely, let's go further into debt for another country's war. Ukraine should absolutely be the priority when it comes to appropriations.
At least it'll make the chickenhawks happy.
Most of what we're sending isn't money, it's assets. Assets that were constructed to fight China and Russia at the same time if needed. They were literally built and maintained in waiting for a fight with Russia. Sending them to make Russia weaker lowers the stockpile we need to maintain. The number of dollars sent over isn't real dollars, it's the value of assets (at the date of construction, not after technology advanced). We were literally spending money to keep them ready in case they were needed, and now they're needed and we no longer have to spend money on them.
We are spending some new money on aid and things, but most of the military stuff is stuff we already had kicking around, not new spending to build new stuff to send over. Also, sure we'll have to replace some, but we would anyway as technology advances, and it also won't be to the same level as Russia is weaker.
Arguably much of it should be valued at negative monetary value as with Ukraine taking it the US won't have to pay to decommission it. Especially ammunition gets expensive (tanks you can just dump in a desert somewhere).
Err... what? Who paid for those 'assets'? Those 'assets' can't be liquidated for capital?
Lol, 35 upvotes. Man, this next generation sucks. Not a critical thinker among you.
No, the assets can't really just be liquidated for capital. They're military equipment, and they've lost value over time anyway so the real value is less than the listed price. What can be done is giving them to another country for promises in the future.
It's not "another country's war"
It absolutely is.
And it's frustrating watching the extent to which our country is neglected in order to pursue ventures like this over, and over, and over again.
Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but our government neglected us long before this war and will continue to neglect us long after.
It's an entire planet's war.
Idk tbh. We are all by ourselves over here. I do wish we could at least reconsider military spending in the US. But now they seem damned and determined to fight a war with russia and china.
Personally I like how we are involved in this war. We send equipment which we can then 100% determine the efficacy of. It doesn't cost any American lives. I do also recognize that our country seems to be crumbling
I understand, unfortunately our country's democracy is fucking broken and has been catering to corporate interests for the majority of its history. However whether we choose to fund Ukraine or not this will not change, ultimately we need to reform the US government so that the citizens get true representation.
I mean, I get that.
The 98% of voters who choose the party line every time do not give a fuck about anything other than what they're told by their favorite news broadcast, and the news broadcasts always make the war seem like the most important issue. I just don't think it should be too much to ask that people take a moment to think about the fact that the neglect of our own people in favor of warmongering (and we are warmongering, even if we don't have bodies in Russia) has real, tangible negative effects here. And by voting pro-war every two years, all of them are contributing to it, whether they claim to be anti-war or not.
In some ways it's a great move beyond the human cost, Russian uses up their military personnel, equipment, and resources while NATO and the US commit some of their resources and older equipment to the cause but nothing new and no losses of people beyond the Ukrainians in theory for the most part.
I know many in the US think the Russians are good guys now (Patton is probably doing cartwheels in his grave at the thought, but Nazis are good now too so maybe not) but if there is going to be future conflict, the Russian machine will be spent and tired which will help some.
We can always tax the rich to solve our problems.
It's not that the money isn't there, lol. We just choose not to use it.
Putin has been claiming that Ukraine invaded him all along, so now what? "Oh they are invading for realsies." I've been hoping that Ukraine would call him on his bluff.
It ain't no fun when the bunny's got the gun.
I'm no fan of Russia
But at the same time I'm no fan of nuclear war either.
The escalation of the war has to stop or else we will all feel the fallout of this war.
I'm pretty much a dove through and through with one exception: you must be able to fight to defend the sovereignty of your country.
It is Russia that started the tension, then the conflict, and then the war. Appeasing a megalomaniac and hoping it will make them more measured is delusional.
Then as a peace loving person ... why support continued fighting?
Fighting Russia only leads to more war and towards what outcome? Completely defeat, embarrass and throw Russia up against a wall they can't back out of? They would be forced into a corner where they would eventually use a nuclear option. If they are given the choice between defeat or suicide ... they might take themselves and millions of people with them.
I'm all in support of Ukrainian sovereignty and fighting for one's country ... but if it means risking the lives of millions of people around the world ... what sense does that make?
If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?
"If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?"
Do you want us to spend billions on an ad campaign asking Russia to please stop invading a country? Uh I don't know if you are history deaf or not but Russia will not stop, unless it is stopped.
Something we Americans should really stick to is the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line. Russia is a terrorist state, and they have proven time and time again they cannot be reasoned with.
Pacifism is when I get to kick people and they don't do anything about it.
...MDMA in Moscow's water supply something along that line?
Russia's goal is genocide. If you train were to give up, there will be millions of people put to death and sent to concentration camps in Siberia to die. So they really don't have any other option. We have seen time and time again Russia commit crimes against humanity including to this day the continued operation of the gulag system.
Russia isn't going to risk the world launching a dozen nukes at them just so they can launch one at Ukraine.
As much as that makes sense and everyone probably agrees .... then why are western nations hedging their bets that the other side won't launch a missile, even as they escalate the fighting.
That is Russian Roulette on a global level if you ask me.
The problem is really alternatives. Give into Russias demands and they will do the same again soon. It will also send a message to China for example and make war more likely in the long run.
What kind of peace agreement would you see possible?
Btw if you're interested on the topic of the risk of nuclear war related to Ukraine there's a good video by Lonerbox in which he also explains the logic of the side you're arguing with here in more detail.
Apart from the other points that have been raised: basically every recent report about Ukrainian troops has gotten a bit in it along the lines of "they're exhausted and have taken heavy losses, but are in good spirits and willing to fight on".
Especially if you read what individual soldiers are saying, I get the feeling that this war would not end, even if support to Ukraine where to vanish completely (good luck convincing Poland, the Baltics and Nordics). You'd just get Afghanistan, but the invaders are openly genocidal and don't give a fuck about civilians at the best of times.
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