France to ban female students from wearing abayas in state schools

MicroWave@lemmy.world to World News@lemmy.world – 528 points – France to ban female students from wearing abayas in state schools
bbc.com

Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France's state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

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I am mildly in favor of that. Kids can't decide what to wear it's their parents who do.

This will simply reduce the artificial divide between those wear that type of stuff and who doesn't.

I also don't believe it's a freedom endangering, because they're aren't spontaneously people wearing abayas or burka or whatever just for the pleasure of it, I interpret the fact of wearing it as religious propaganda and artificial separation.

I don't know the law in France, but I'd worry it'll cause religious parents to just keep their kids out of state school and do some form of private religious education, causing a greater divide. The best counter to these attitudes is exposure to diversity and other viewpoints. Maybe the kids going to school and seeing that there are other ways is better.

"Maybe the kids going to school and seeing there are other ways is better". Yeah, but they aren't the ones deciding how they dress. They parents are the ones that do.

Of course. And if the parents dress them in that and keep them isolated the kids will pass that on to the next generation. If the kids go to school and see there are other options, maybe they'll choose to be different when they're independent or raise their kids differently. This is why cults always seek to isolate their members -- exposure to diversity breaks the cycle.

Nah, girls just won't be sent to schools.

This will be "the last straw" for many of their fathers.

Some will go, and their parents will begrudgingly accept (or turn a blind eye to their daughter dressing down as soon as she's near school.). The majority reaction will be similar to what you see in other nations that don't respect women enough to let them keep their autonomy.

That'll get the fathers at least 6 months in prison in France, probably more for negligence etc.

And homeschooling requires a very good reason why they can't go to school (pretty much always a health condition, and that needs proof) there are annual inspections and every other year the reason for homeschooling is verified.

Just not sending the children isn't an option in pretty much every place in Europe

can you explain why other people wearing culturally traditional clothing is "religious propaganda and artificial separation"? do you feel this way about other traditional garb, or is it just the scary muslims?

Yes i can explain. Literally nobody else does it. And if someone would, then my position will be the same: wear regular clothes in public institutions.

i think enforcing the local culture by telling women what they can and cannot wear is bad, actually

can you explain why you disagree with that stance

we are talking about underage girls here, not exactly adult "women" so I reject the idea that those girls could choose/buy their outfit. Regardless, I disagree because:

    1. We are choosing between either parents imposing a robe, or the state imposing a robe; wearing that robe would clearly differentiate the ethnicity/religious background of the pupil, while wearing regular "whatever everyone else is wearing" would help the integration and erase the boundaries. Note that parents cannot just withdraw the kid out of school, so they have to integrate; private education is almost never an option
    1. It avoids the whole can of worms like "professor didn't like my muslim robe, that's why I got bad grades"
    1. Personal take: I HATE religion. Yes, churches too, I have enough hate for every religious nut out there. And no need to tell me "abaya is not a religious dress", who are you fooling.

Ideally, I agree, State should just fuck up and let people live. But that's not taking into account any local context, and nobody lives in a vacuum, people live in some particular society. As an immigrant myself, I do think that it's best for foreigners to integrate to host country as much as possible.

What about the Jews and their Yamakas? The Catholics and their Rosary? Other religions have certain dress codes and accessories, too. They are just not always a full body covering.

I would hope that schools in France ban other religious items like those if they are banning Muslim clothing and accessories.

If there was a uniform at school it would be different. Here it's fashion police. Specifically targeted at Arab culture.

It's an atheist theocracy. Also called fascism.

It's obviously targeted, but at religion not a specific ethnic group. Moreover, that law will make those pupils look like anyone else, so if anything, this will reduce the stigma

It's not targeted at religion because it's not a religious dress. Ergo it's a culture that's targeted and it's blatant racism.

Stigmatising people for their culture or religion never integrate them.

We should teach fascists how to read what's written on our townhall though.

It's clearly associated with religion, so technical details do not matter. This law is literally erasing the difference between all, stop repeating the same argument guys, it's not stigmatizing anyone because they all damn look the same