Still , as with Linux, you spend hours in configuring something that in windows just installs and runs … not saying windows is the best OS , but as all companies … it is less time consuming and everything just runs on it.
When was the last time you ran a distro and how awful was the hardware to have this experience? In the past 10 years all of them have been fairly "hit the ground running" for me unless it had something weird like Nvidia Optimus
Anything involving Nvidia, really.
I installed Xubuntu on an old laptop with a Geforce 635M. During installation I checked "Install proprietary drivers". So it installs the current Nvidia driver instead of the correct legacy one for my GPU, even though it obviously would be able to tell which GPU I have installed.
So then I uninstalled the current one and installed the correct legacy one, but the driver still doesn't work. Took me quite a while that apt remove/install only removes/installs the packages but doesn't actually load/unload the drivers from the kernel.
So I loaded the legacy driver into the kernel, but it still didn't work. Apparently, the current driver takes precedence, even though it doesn't even support the GPU at all.
In the end I had to reinstall the current one, unload both drivers from the kernel, uninstall the current driver and load the legacy driver.
This took me a few hours and I am pretty sure that someone who doesn't have an IT degree would probably just not have a working GPU and that's that.
Then I spent a few hours to get Optimus to run, but couldn't figure it out. So now this laptop cannot be used without a battery source for any decent amount of time, because the GPU is constantly running and consumes massive amounts of energy just to render e.g. a browser window.
Edit: And for sure, anyone who says they have ever had difficulties with anything regarding Linux is directly getting downvotes. That's also a big issue regarding Linux. Whenever someone has trouble or asks for help, there's always some helpful fanboy ready to downvote and call you a noob. Funnily enough, these fanboys usually are running Linux for two weeks so far.
That's just Ubuntu being broken every time something slightly out of the ordinary happens. That is normal.
Kind of hard to believe people still say stuff like this...
There is plenty of stuff that Linux does much better than Windows, for example containerized service and applications, which is why Windows needs a Linux subsystem at all. It's possible that the main reason you think Linux is bad is that you aren't as familiar with it.
The biggest downside to Linux remains official hardware and software support, though that's a business economics issue and not a technical limitation.
I honestly could not imagine a circumstance in which I go back to using Windows or switch over to Mac, because Linux does basically everything I want and then some.
The point about the WSL doesn't really hold as a con - the NT kernel is a microkernel so it uses subsystems by design. Iirc there's even a hypervisor running below it by default. Architecturally Windows is absolutely marvelous, they just decided to make about the worst out of it.
I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying WSL is a con, I'm saying that the reason Microsoft ships a Linux subsystem is that there are useful programs and things that can be done with Linux.
I don't know what sort of bubble people live in, or if people convinced themselves that a computer getting slower over time because of OS clutter is normal, but every Windows PC I ever had had shit ton of problems, getting slow to the point of feeling like I have a $100 laptop instead of a $2000 one being the most common.
And can't say MacOS is much better, at least judging by my gf getting freezes all the time and having to reboot by holding the power button.
My Kubuntu work laptop is also getting slower and slower, same as my Android phone. That's just what happens if you useany OS extensively.
Cleaning and maintenance is necessary on any OS.
Also, with a bit of skill and care, a Windows PC can easily be kept fresh for a decade.
I use my PC extensively and my Linux PC doesn't get noticeably slower just because I've installed a few things.
More context please. There are a ton of things that "just work" on Linux, just like Windows. I have spent hours troubleshooting and configuring things on Windows as well.
With either OS, time spent configuring and installing things is heavily dependent on the experience of the user and their ability to interpret logs and error messages. With most OS's, configuration and troubleshooting is just a matter of "knowing where to look" combined with understanding how the OS itself works.
Server services are much easier to configure on Linux, IMHO. Additionally, I find configuration to be much more flexible and (generally) more intuitive than Windows but that is my opinion. However, I have worked with both Linux and Windows since they were created, so I have a good number of years of experience.
My point is that it really depends on what you are wanting to do.
(Rant: Deep troubleshooting in Windows has always sucked and the methods to do so have changed a thousand times over the years. It's a royal pain to keep up, TBH. Very rarely have I needed "reinstall Linux" because something was broken beyond fixing.)
The guy before isn't exactly wrong.
Many things that "just work" on Linux are things you just don't do on Windows. E.g. swapping the DE or theming/customizing the whole thing usually works great out of the box. But on Windows you just don't do that.
On the other hand, getting e.g. legacy Nvidia drivers working correctly and setup so that it automatically switches between the power-consuming dGPU and the power-saving iGPU is a major pain in the rear. On Windows that just works. Mostly Nvidias fault, but to the user who has to deal with the situation it doesn't matter who is at fault.
And in general, if you come from Windows with a lot of Windows experience and then have to dive into Linux, you mainly notice the things that don't just work on Linux.
Also, fixing problems in Windows might take you through the registry or arcane wizards. But you hardly ever get into CLI and never into config files. So if you swap over to Linux, where almost any help you find online will go straight into CLI and config files (even if a GUI solution would be available), that can be pretty jarring.
I've been using Linux professionally for ~15 years and privately for ~5. But I still remeber getting into it very vivdly.
Very good points. I remember the drama of trying to get simple things like USB, Bluetooth and even WiFi working on Linux quite a few years ago. However, even though those could be problematic, I did learn a ton about how drivers interacted with various chipsets. That, in turn, led me down the path of how to apply specific patches and build my own kernel modules. It was absolutely a double edged sword.
It really is a shame that most GPU vendors haven't spent more time developing better drivers for Linux, but in some ways, I feel their pain. (I am leaving out the open vs closed source debate on that.) Windows does provide consistency, through all of its shortcomings. Linux can be very .. eh.. interesting between different distros, for sure.
But yeah, I didn't rush to downvote the above commenter as they were speaking from their own perspective and experience. No shame in that.
Uh, Wifi drivers in the 2000s on Linux... That was painful. I remember one specific Wifi USB stick, where the Linux driver just came as source code. I mean, good for them for making an open source driver, but back then I was just a teenager with very little coding experience, and they had no guide on how to compile it at all. Also it was written for an older version of gcc than what I had, and gcc threw a ton of errors because that. So I had to go through the whole driver source and fix all these compiler errors, even though I had no C++ experience at all. Just to get a dumb Wifi stick to work.
In Windows, back than, it was just "plonk it in, double click the driver on the CD and be done". I don't miss those days.
It always funny to me to hear this sentence.
Just look how it is to install software on Windows.
You need to open the menu and type the browser name(/click on a shortcut), open the browser, search for your software, check you're clicking on the right site and not some scam website, [sometimes you need to go few pages until you end up in the downloading page], clicking on the download button, and.. *if* the download completed successfully.. there's still more..!
Or you can use the software store gui which is present on most systems. More clicks instead of clacks.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I could go Google and search for notepad + website and download plus install before you finish typing that. I use Linux Mac and Windows and Windows is definitely the easiest most user friendly. Mac is second (And by far most restrictive os) with Linux last for ease of use. Doesnt mean it's bad but bro go tell my mom to type what you said and your argument crumbles. I can tell her to do what I said and she can get by.
You genuinely think it's faster to make a Web query, wait for search results to show up, click and wait for the correct webpage to load, navigate to the download page, download the exe, run the exe and go through the pop up menu than it is to type apt install x?
Yeah because I'd have to Google how to install X on Linux so I'd be stuck reading till I found the command. You don't just guess what X is you either know or you gotta look it up. Most people are used to windows and it's fine. Linux people that hate windows are just weird...they all do cool things but y'all crazy if you think 95% of people will be faster on Linux in the current state of the world. We have all been using Windows for 30 years.
I don't want to agree with this comment. And in fact I would say most of the time I don't. Most stuff "just works" nowadays. But I do occasionally have to fight with something I wouldn't in Windows. Easily worth it IMO but that's not going to be everyone's take.
Still , as with Linux, you spend hours in configuring something that in windows just installs and runs … not saying windows is the best OS , but as all companies … it is less time consuming and everything just runs on it.
When was the last time you ran a distro and how awful was the hardware to have this experience? In the past 10 years all of them have been fairly "hit the ground running" for me unless it had something weird like Nvidia Optimus
Anything involving Nvidia, really.
I installed Xubuntu on an old laptop with a Geforce 635M. During installation I checked "Install proprietary drivers". So it installs the current Nvidia driver instead of the correct legacy one for my GPU, even though it obviously would be able to tell which GPU I have installed.
So then I uninstalled the current one and installed the correct legacy one, but the driver still doesn't work. Took me quite a while that apt remove/install only removes/installs the packages but doesn't actually load/unload the drivers from the kernel.
So I loaded the legacy driver into the kernel, but it still didn't work. Apparently, the current driver takes precedence, even though it doesn't even support the GPU at all.
In the end I had to reinstall the current one, unload both drivers from the kernel, uninstall the current driver and load the legacy driver.
This took me a few hours and I am pretty sure that someone who doesn't have an IT degree would probably just not have a working GPU and that's that.
Then I spent a few hours to get Optimus to run, but couldn't figure it out. So now this laptop cannot be used without a battery source for any decent amount of time, because the GPU is constantly running and consumes massive amounts of energy just to render e.g. a browser window.
Edit: And for sure, anyone who says they have ever had difficulties with anything regarding Linux is directly getting downvotes. That's also a big issue regarding Linux. Whenever someone has trouble or asks for help, there's always some helpful fanboy ready to downvote and call you a noob. Funnily enough, these fanboys usually are running Linux for two weeks so far.
That's just Ubuntu being broken every time something slightly out of the ordinary happens. That is normal.
Kind of hard to believe people still say stuff like this...
There is plenty of stuff that Linux does much better than Windows, for example containerized service and applications, which is why Windows needs a Linux subsystem at all. It's possible that the main reason you think Linux is bad is that you aren't as familiar with it.
The biggest downside to Linux remains official hardware and software support, though that's a business economics issue and not a technical limitation.
I honestly could not imagine a circumstance in which I go back to using Windows or switch over to Mac, because Linux does basically everything I want and then some.
The point about the WSL doesn't really hold as a con - the NT kernel is a microkernel so it uses subsystems by design. Iirc there's even a hypervisor running below it by default. Architecturally Windows is absolutely marvelous, they just decided to make about the worst out of it.
I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying WSL is a con, I'm saying that the reason Microsoft ships a Linux subsystem is that there are useful programs and things that can be done with Linux.
I don't know what sort of bubble people live in, or if people convinced themselves that a computer getting slower over time because of OS clutter is normal, but every Windows PC I ever had had shit ton of problems, getting slow to the point of feeling like I have a $100 laptop instead of a $2000 one being the most common.
And can't say MacOS is much better, at least judging by my gf getting freezes all the time and having to reboot by holding the power button.
My Kubuntu work laptop is also getting slower and slower, same as my Android phone. That's just what happens if you useany OS extensively.
Cleaning and maintenance is necessary on any OS.
Also, with a bit of skill and care, a Windows PC can easily be kept fresh for a decade.
I use my PC extensively and my Linux PC doesn't get noticeably slower just because I've installed a few things.
More context please. There are a ton of things that "just work" on Linux, just like Windows. I have spent hours troubleshooting and configuring things on Windows as well.
With either OS, time spent configuring and installing things is heavily dependent on the experience of the user and their ability to interpret logs and error messages. With most OS's, configuration and troubleshooting is just a matter of "knowing where to look" combined with understanding how the OS itself works.
Server services are much easier to configure on Linux, IMHO. Additionally, I find configuration to be much more flexible and (generally) more intuitive than Windows but that is my opinion. However, I have worked with both Linux and Windows since they were created, so I have a good number of years of experience.
My point is that it really depends on what you are wanting to do.
(Rant: Deep troubleshooting in Windows has always sucked and the methods to do so have changed a thousand times over the years. It's a royal pain to keep up, TBH. Very rarely have I needed "reinstall Linux" because something was broken beyond fixing.)
The guy before isn't exactly wrong.
Many things that "just work" on Linux are things you just don't do on Windows. E.g. swapping the DE or theming/customizing the whole thing usually works great out of the box. But on Windows you just don't do that.
On the other hand, getting e.g. legacy Nvidia drivers working correctly and setup so that it automatically switches between the power-consuming dGPU and the power-saving iGPU is a major pain in the rear. On Windows that just works. Mostly Nvidias fault, but to the user who has to deal with the situation it doesn't matter who is at fault.
And in general, if you come from Windows with a lot of Windows experience and then have to dive into Linux, you mainly notice the things that don't just work on Linux.
Also, fixing problems in Windows might take you through the registry or arcane wizards. But you hardly ever get into CLI and never into config files. So if you swap over to Linux, where almost any help you find online will go straight into CLI and config files (even if a GUI solution would be available), that can be pretty jarring.
I've been using Linux professionally for ~15 years and privately for ~5. But I still remeber getting into it very vivdly.
Very good points. I remember the drama of trying to get simple things like USB, Bluetooth and even WiFi working on Linux quite a few years ago. However, even though those could be problematic, I did learn a ton about how drivers interacted with various chipsets. That, in turn, led me down the path of how to apply specific patches and build my own kernel modules. It was absolutely a double edged sword.
It really is a shame that most GPU vendors haven't spent more time developing better drivers for Linux, but in some ways, I feel their pain. (I am leaving out the open vs closed source debate on that.) Windows does provide consistency, through all of its shortcomings. Linux can be very .. eh.. interesting between different distros, for sure.
But yeah, I didn't rush to downvote the above commenter as they were speaking from their own perspective and experience. No shame in that.
Uh, Wifi drivers in the 2000s on Linux... That was painful. I remember one specific Wifi USB stick, where the Linux driver just came as source code. I mean, good for them for making an open source driver, but back then I was just a teenager with very little coding experience, and they had no guide on how to compile it at all. Also it was written for an older version of gcc than what I had, and gcc threw a ton of errors because that. So I had to go through the whole driver source and fix all these compiler errors, even though I had no C++ experience at all. Just to get a dumb Wifi stick to work.
In Windows, back than, it was just "plonk it in, double click the driver on the CD and be done". I don't miss those days.
It always funny to me to hear this sentence.
Just look how it is to install software on Windows.
You need to open the menu and type the browser name(/click on a shortcut), open the browser, search for your software, check you're clicking on the right site and not some scam website, [sometimes you need to go few pages until you end up in the downloading page], clicking on the download button, and.. *if* the download completed successfully.. there's still more..!
Now installing..
On Unix-like systems-
<package-mangager> <install-command> <software-name>.
Ex:
apt install i3. That's it!Or you can use the software store gui which is present on most systems. More clicks instead of clacks.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I could go Google and search for notepad + website and download plus install before you finish typing that. I use Linux Mac and Windows and Windows is definitely the easiest most user friendly. Mac is second (And by far most restrictive os) with Linux last for ease of use. Doesnt mean it's bad but bro go tell my mom to type what you said and your argument crumbles. I can tell her to do what I said and she can get by.
You genuinely think it's faster to make a Web query, wait for search results to show up, click and wait for the correct webpage to load, navigate to the download page, download the exe, run the exe and go through the pop up menu than it is to type
apt install x?Yeah because I'd have to Google how to install X on Linux so I'd be stuck reading till I found the command. You don't just guess what X is you either know or you gotta look it up. Most people are used to windows and it's fine. Linux people that hate windows are just weird...they all do cool things but y'all crazy if you think 95% of people will be faster on Linux in the current state of the world. We have all been using Windows for 30 years.
I don't want to agree with this comment. And in fact I would say most of the time I don't. Most stuff "just works" nowadays. But I do occasionally have to fight with something I wouldn't in Windows. Easily worth it IMO but that's not going to be everyone's take.