Those are not contradictory positions. In my opinion, we all did know this was going to happen. And also, any mods that rolled over to continue doing an unpaid job just to retain some form of power are bitches.
Being forcibly removed was the best way to go out, I respect it.
And also, any mods that rolled over to continue doing an unpaid job just to retain some form of power are bitches.
Sincerely disagree about that.
If you are willing to do an unpaid job, for a company that has essentially spit in your face, than you have lower standards than me.
And if you're doing it just because you're afraid to let go of whatever pathetic little power you have established there, then your ideals don't align with mine, and I see you as a bitch.
And if you’re doing it just because you’re afraid to let go of whatever pathetic little power you have established there, then your ideals don’t align with mine, and I see you as a bitch.
Well, the problem is on you then.
Agreeing with them being a bitch doesn't make them less of a bitch.
I wouldn't say boo if everyone hadn't been so unanimously Gung ho two weeks ago or whatever, but watching those people falter THE SECOND their power is threatened after talking all that good shit, yeah they "bitched out."
A kind reminder that the one getting removed now are the one being called a bitch 2 days ago because they open up their sub but instead running it like normal they maliciously compliant with the admin.
Now i do find that change of opinion a lack of principle or whatever heck they wanna call it.
For me, I respect the hell out of the mods that went down swinging, and for the ones that are not willing to burn it all down or just walk away I can definitely empathize with how they might be feeling.
Personally it has been heartbreaking to completely shut out all of the communities I was a small part of, and it must be infinitely worse for the ones that have put in all the effort.
That's the problem with people calling them bitch or loser. The moment i saw anyone calling them "unpaid mod" or "janitor" is the moment i don't argue with them, because they started in such a wrong step it's hard to even correct them.
Why is it bad to call them unpaid mods? That's exactly what they are.
I'm not the one with compromised principles.
But the one with lack of understanding and empathy.
Empathy for hypocritical mods? Listen, I know it has to be hard to leave or move a huge community you worked hard to build... I'm empathetic to that, but my empathy or lack thereof doesn't detract from my points.
Sure buddy.
Some communities do serve an important support network for many people (things like places for closeted LGBT+ people to express themselves when they live in anti-LGBT+ areas, etc). They're sometimes more than just a place to get dopamine hit while bored at work.
For sure, but if you are a mod of that type of community, wouldn't you want to move to a platform where you have actual control? It's 3rd party apps being targeted and ad-driven policies that overthrow mods today but how are you going to protect your community if they come after you next? You can't on that platform, it's their platform, it belongs to them, they can do what they want, so if you set up your camp there, you need to think twice about it, especially if you are a steward to others.
Look at how transphobic Twitter has become recently. Look at how all these profit driven companies have fucked their users over the years, there is example after example with Google, Facebook, Twitter, Twitch, and Reddit now. It's a major reason why I got into selfhosting different services at home, and I consider us fortunate to also have alternative federated services to replace these social sites and gain some control and privacy back in a like manner.
I totally agree and have made a similar argument on Reddit in one of those spaces as well. I think it's worth purposely killing those existing communities to get people to move. Boring malicious compliance + a link to the new home is how egg_irl has been handling it and I think it's how others should as well (I have complaints about where they're moving the community to, but that's a separate issue). The mods have explicitly stated they're trying to make the sub boring to get people to leave.
But I won't insult mods of a less meme-focused support network who believes that putting up with reddit is worth it to help provide as much of a safe space on Reddit as they can. I think they may be acting in what they believe to be the best interests of others, likely at their own expense (in terms of time and sanity). Diversity of tactics are cool
any mods that rolled over to continue doing an unpaid job just to retain some form of power are bitches.
Personally, I don't believe that POV is fair. As someone who, with a small group of friends, started a sub that has grown to 100k people and is the most active internet community for a niche gaming segment - i personally think it's not that easy to judge. I have not been active on my sub in years, and I leave the job up to the new guard, but I can completely respect the decision to want to keep something you invested in building alive and a positive influence in the area it affects. It's easy to armchair QB stuff like this and judge others decisions, but to just generalize and say "better to die than to think something else is better in the bigger picture" is a bit of a cop out imo.
It's easy to judge for anyone with principles. I would have officially moved the community before shutting down the reddit community or being forcibly removed from it.
Anyone that feigned outrage or protest that stays is a hypocrite.
hard disagree. This isn't black and white, you can do some of both and that is not wrong or unprincipled. Thinking otherwise is just simple minded.
I mean, you're not countering anything. Explain the nuance and how you maintain those principles that contradict each other and are not an absolute fucking hypocrite then.
Because if you're a mod and you say, I don't really care that much about this issue, my sub is going to keep running. Cool, that checks out logically. If you say, I really care about this issue, I'm going to protest it, but not with any real consequences. Then you are a fucking bitch. You'd rather be subservient to a company that doesn't respect mods or it's users than give up any bit of power or work established while simultaneously pretending to care as long as it doesn't impact you then you're a hypocritical bitch.
I’d say it’s actually a fairly black and white situation considering continuing to use Reddit is proving spez exactly right while adding more free value to them for their IPO.
I would do everything in my power to move over to a different community and not give them another click ever again that they can try and monetize. I’d understand if these were paid positions but they’re not, there’s no reason to stay. If the communities end up going poorly afterward that is on Reddit and what they deserve.
That depends on the principles. And it is at least unkind to implicate he doesn't have any. Both of you are making valid arguments, even if they are mutually exclusive. Also, both of you fail to see this from another perspective. It's like you're looking at a dice from two sides and argue about which numbers are visible. Sometimes it helps to turn things around and look at them from different angles.
I'd bet it would at least improve the tone of this conversation.
I understand that moving a community here would be difficult, and you're going to lose users over it. But, it's not impossible, many other subs have done it... so if his position is that he is not willing to roll up his sleeves to do that work, then he can't simultaneously bang on the drum that he really cares about this issue.
Those are not contradictory positions. In my opinion, we all did know this was going to happen. And also, any mods that rolled over to continue doing an unpaid job just to retain some form of power are bitches.
Being forcibly removed was the best way to go out, I respect it.
Sincerely disagree about that.
If you are willing to do an unpaid job, for a company that has essentially spit in your face, than you have lower standards than me.
And if you're doing it just because you're afraid to let go of whatever pathetic little power you have established there, then your ideals don't align with mine, and I see you as a bitch.
Well, the problem is on you then.
Agreeing with them being a bitch doesn't make them less of a bitch.
I wouldn't say boo if everyone hadn't been so unanimously Gung ho two weeks ago or whatever, but watching those people falter THE SECOND their power is threatened after talking all that good shit, yeah they "bitched out."
A kind reminder that the one getting removed now are the one being called a bitch 2 days ago because they open up their sub but instead running it like normal they maliciously compliant with the admin.
Now i do find that change of opinion a lack of principle or whatever heck they wanna call it.
For me, I respect the hell out of the mods that went down swinging, and for the ones that are not willing to burn it all down or just walk away I can definitely empathize with how they might be feeling.
Personally it has been heartbreaking to completely shut out all of the communities I was a small part of, and it must be infinitely worse for the ones that have put in all the effort.
That's the problem with people calling them bitch or loser. The moment i saw anyone calling them "unpaid mod" or "janitor" is the moment i don't argue with them, because they started in such a wrong step it's hard to even correct them.
Why is it bad to call them unpaid mods? That's exactly what they are.
I'm not the one with compromised principles.
But the one with lack of understanding and empathy.
Empathy for hypocritical mods? Listen, I know it has to be hard to leave or move a huge community you worked hard to build... I'm empathetic to that, but my empathy or lack thereof doesn't detract from my points.
Sure buddy.
Some communities do serve an important support network for many people (things like places for closeted LGBT+ people to express themselves when they live in anti-LGBT+ areas, etc). They're sometimes more than just a place to get dopamine hit while bored at work.
For sure, but if you are a mod of that type of community, wouldn't you want to move to a platform where you have actual control? It's 3rd party apps being targeted and ad-driven policies that overthrow mods today but how are you going to protect your community if they come after you next? You can't on that platform, it's their platform, it belongs to them, they can do what they want, so if you set up your camp there, you need to think twice about it, especially if you are a steward to others.
Look at how transphobic Twitter has become recently. Look at how all these profit driven companies have fucked their users over the years, there is example after example with Google, Facebook, Twitter, Twitch, and Reddit now. It's a major reason why I got into selfhosting different services at home, and I consider us fortunate to also have alternative federated services to replace these social sites and gain some control and privacy back in a like manner.
I totally agree and have made a similar argument on Reddit in one of those spaces as well. I think it's worth purposely killing those existing communities to get people to move. Boring malicious compliance + a link to the new home is how egg_irl has been handling it and I think it's how others should as well (I have complaints about where they're moving the community to, but that's a separate issue). The mods have explicitly stated they're trying to make the sub boring to get people to leave.
But I won't insult mods of a less meme-focused support network who believes that putting up with reddit is worth it to help provide as much of a safe space on Reddit as they can. I think they may be acting in what they believe to be the best interests of others, likely at their own expense (in terms of time and sanity). Diversity of tactics are cool
Personally, I don't believe that POV is fair. As someone who, with a small group of friends, started a sub that has grown to 100k people and is the most active internet community for a niche gaming segment - i personally think it's not that easy to judge. I have not been active on my sub in years, and I leave the job up to the new guard, but I can completely respect the decision to want to keep something you invested in building alive and a positive influence in the area it affects. It's easy to armchair QB stuff like this and judge others decisions, but to just generalize and say "better to die than to think something else is better in the bigger picture" is a bit of a cop out imo.
It's easy to judge for anyone with principles. I would have officially moved the community before shutting down the reddit community or being forcibly removed from it.
Anyone that feigned outrage or protest that stays is a hypocrite.
hard disagree. This isn't black and white, you can do some of both and that is not wrong or unprincipled. Thinking otherwise is just simple minded.
I mean, you're not countering anything. Explain the nuance and how you maintain those principles that contradict each other and are not an absolute fucking hypocrite then.
Because if you're a mod and you say, I don't really care that much about this issue, my sub is going to keep running. Cool, that checks out logically. If you say, I really care about this issue, I'm going to protest it, but not with any real consequences. Then you are a fucking bitch. You'd rather be subservient to a company that doesn't respect mods or it's users than give up any bit of power or work established while simultaneously pretending to care as long as it doesn't impact you then you're a hypocritical bitch.
I’d say it’s actually a fairly black and white situation considering continuing to use Reddit is proving spez exactly right while adding more free value to them for their IPO.
I would do everything in my power to move over to a different community and not give them another click ever again that they can try and monetize. I’d understand if these were paid positions but they’re not, there’s no reason to stay. If the communities end up going poorly afterward that is on Reddit and what they deserve.
That depends on the principles. And it is at least unkind to implicate he doesn't have any. Both of you are making valid arguments, even if they are mutually exclusive. Also, both of you fail to see this from another perspective. It's like you're looking at a dice from two sides and argue about which numbers are visible. Sometimes it helps to turn things around and look at them from different angles. I'd bet it would at least improve the tone of this conversation.
I understand that moving a community here would be difficult, and you're going to lose users over it. But, it's not impossible, many other subs have done it... so if his position is that he is not willing to roll up his sleeves to do that work, then he can't simultaneously bang on the drum that he really cares about this issue.