Open or concealed carry is insane. You Americans are unhinged.
This is from a gun owner.
Believing a politician can unilaterally suspend a right protected by both the federal and state constitution is unhinged.
I wasn't commenting on that, I was commenting on carrying a gun in public
Licensed concealed carriers have a lower violent crime rate than the general public. So its unhinged to ban these individuals from carrying thinking it'll stop criminals.
Again, I wasn't commenting about the ban. Just the desire to carry a gun in public.
Ah gotcha. Its about wanting to be safe. Violence happens unfortunately, so I concealed carry to give me the ability to defend myself (and more importantly my partner) if I ever am faced with that.
No offense but that is extremely paranoid. I love in a not so great part of a major city and have never really felt unsafe enough to feel the need to carry. Hell, even my step dad, who was a police officer and has been shot at, does not feel the need to carry. I guess I could see if you live somewhere super dangerous like St Louis or Wichita but it seems a bit silly otherwise.
Also, shouldn't your partner be the one carrying of they are the less safe of the two of you?
I'm not in st louis but I've had a knife pulled on me for attempting to enter walmart. Luckily however the guy decided not to attack, idk if it had anything to do with me grabbing the grip of my carry pistol or not, but I'd imagine it's pretty likely that's the reason he started running away.
Paranoid or not, I was able to afford food for that night and avoid being stabbed, so I'll just consider it my "good luck charm."
I don't see it as paranoid. I totally agree with you its unlikely I'll ever need it, but it costs me nothing to concealed carry where I can. Worst case my pants are slightly less comfortable, best case I save a life.
My partner is disabled and is of a very small stature which means I'm a far faster and more accurate shot so I carry when its the 2 of us. If theyre alone they carry a lower power pistol so they can handle using it.
Just to let you know, there is a near zero percent chance that it will save any life at all. And no, worst case is not that your pants are slightly less comfortable. Bad case would be you accidentally leaving it somewhere (lots of cases where people remove it while in the sitter and forget about it). Worst case would be you using it when it absolutely, positively is not necessary which again, there is a near zero percent chance it would be needed. If you are fine with all of that, that is okay but don't be under the impression that there are zero downsides outside of uncomfortable pants.
No youre right, it was a bit of hyperbole on my part.
I keep a very close eye on defensive gun legality and cases (Armed Attorneys is a great Youtube channel to start with if you're interested). You're right there are many things that can go wrong. I do my best to stay educated on the pitfalls others run into, I pay for carry insurance as well to help with legal fees if I ever do need to use it.
Good on you, mate. I wish more gun owners were similar.
sorry you feel unsafe in your country. You should move
Crime happens everywhere, some places more then others sure. But I prefer to have the right to the tools to protect myself, rather than just hope that I'll never need them.
Licensed concealed carriers have a lower violent crime rate than the general public.
Than the general public in America maybe, but legal gun owners in other countries have a violent crime rate of functionally zero, since they're properly vetted through laws that aren't dogshit.
But even giving you that point, what about all the violent crime those permissive laws enable?
Over 70% of mass shooters use legal firearms. Of the remaining, most are teenagers who took the poorly secured firearm of a family member.
There is no magic gun fairy distributing illegal firearms. Every firearm in the hands of a criminal was either bought legally, stolen from a "responsible gun owner" who didn't secure it, straw purchased or purchased through a loophole.
Nevertheless, the pro-gun community opposes more robust background checks, mandatory safe storage laws or the closing of loopholes.
And what does the public get in return? Mostly just shot because none of the pro-gun promises have come true.
Good guys with guns intervene in 3% of shootings. The crime rate remains the same as comparable countries. The country is no more free when measured by any metric except guns. The government spies on and kills its own citizens.
The gun laws are a failure.
I don't feel like writing an essay to address all your points, I don't have the time right now I'm sorry. Ultimately it comes down to the fact the highest law (and most state constitutions) of the land gives us the inalienable right to arms. Period. (And no "well regulated" does not mean legal regulations)
I believe we would be far better off dealing with the root of violence, like many European countries have done but gun control advocates like to only focus on gun control laws. People with financial, health, reproductive, and employment security don't commit violent crimes. Things like labor protections, maternity/paternity leave, mandatory vacation time, physical and mental healthcare that won't bankrupt you are some of the things that dramatically reduce all violent crime regardless of the tool used.
Look at violent crimes in the US compared to the UK for things like murder using only the human body (ie kicks, punches, strangulation, etc), its lower per 100k in the UK and many other European countries. There's no body control laws restricting how strong or trained your body can be, yet its lower. Its because people who's needs are actually met don't need to turn to or are driven to crime, our social protections in the USA suck ass and need to be fixed.
I agree with you. Even if the US got rid of every single gun in the country we'd probably still have just as many murders. There's something else at play here that causes us to be violent. As a general rule happy people don't kill others. Legislation to fix our social issues would go a long way towards reducing violence, but it's a whole lot easier to just say "guns bad".
You've built a idea of how murder works entirely in your imagination.
Even if the US got rid of every single gun in the country we'd probably still have just as many murders.
Absolutely not. Your odds of surviving a knife attack are an order of magnitude higher than of you are shot.
Yeah sounds good. How about we take your guns now and when you've finished building all of that, you can have them back?
After all, your post is clearly admitting that American society isn't fit for the near indiscriminate sale of guns to citizens.
Because guns in America are used defensively at least 1 to 1 (this ratio is higher in some studies) with their use in crime. So no, until the crime is gone I want to defend myself. And once crime is gone, then who are you making safer by disarming anyone.
Are you basing those numbers on the study that just asked gun owners about "defensive gun use" without any form of validation whatsoever?
Regardless, your talking point had nothing to do with anything I posted, you clearly just wanted to say it. Are you worried I might have hurt your guns feelings?
70% of mass shooters are legal gun owners. Of the remaining, most are children who took the unsecured firearm of a family member.
So regurgitate all the gun lobby talking points you want because your word is worthless.
You literally asked what if we took all he guns away and I gave a counterpoint why i think that would be bad. If you doubt my sources (which is impressive since i hadn't provided any yet) say so instead of jumping to insults. If you want to start ad hominem attacks, just reply to yourself cause I'm not interested in continuing the conversation.
So your answer to "What if we took your guns away?" is "Because guns in America are used defensively"?
Lie better.
Hey if being such an asshole to someone who's done nothing to you make you feel good, have fun. Not letting people provide evidence and going strait to being rude is a great way to think you're always right.
If even if I were that, I'd still have the moral high ground over someone who insists the deaths of hundreds of innocent people is just the price society has to pay for their hobby.
Because do you know what's far more offensive than someone "being rude" on the internet? Children mutilated beyond recognition by a legal gun owner.
other countries have a violent crime rate of functionally zero
The US isn't far removed from homicide rates of other countries when comparing the rates.
Ironically, you highlight the problem is violence and the drives to it over the firearms.
Fun little exercise for anyone clicking that link: Sort by highest homicide rate and scroll down until you hit "United States", counting the number of countries along the way that you'd be comfortable moving to and would expect to have a reasonably comparable quality of life to the USA.
Was the number zero? Probably, because most of those countries are not doing well. Wars, widespread poverty, corruption, exploitation, poor educational and medical outcomes.
I'm sure plenty of them are full of amazing people and cultures and would be great for a holiday, but they're not exactly nipping at the USAs heels when it comes to GDP.
Anyway, we've identified all the countries that are worse, what about the ones that are better? Keep scrolling down past the USA, still looking for that country you'd actually want to live in.
Takes a while huh? You'd think with all the promises the pro-gun people make and comparative wealth of America, it would be firmly in the #1 spot.
Ironically, you highlight the problem is violence and the drives to it over the firearms.
Nobody is claiming that gun control will stop all violence. But the existence of violence doesn't obligate us to provide quick, easy access to the means to escalate violence and maximise damage, even to people with a long history of red flags.
That's a horrible selection bias though. That is basically saying "this group of people with no violent crimes in their records has a lower violent crime rate than the general public which does." Of course they do.
Yes. You're right, these people are vetted by the state and authorized because they passed BG checks and firearms proficiency tests. Which is why a law targeting this group is dumb (beyond just being unconstitutional).
Definitely should have been in your initial point since I have often seen that point used by gun nuts as if they are some paragon of lawfulness. Permitted concealed carry owners are definitely not the ones committing violent crime in New Mexico. Can't really say the same for quite a few other states that allow permitless concealed carry though.
"This from a gun owner" is my favorite take on the "how do you do, fellow kids" meme.
Well I own 5 guns and would never even consider carrying in public ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nifty. Neither being a firearm owner nor count of firearms in any way invalidates the decisions of those who choose to do so.
You're right. It was only a side point to imply that not every gun owner is as loony as certain American ones.
Unfortunately, the only loony stance here is that legally carrying firearms is somehow a loony thing to do.
It's always weird seeing how incapable some people are of considering that a different point of view is every bit as valid as their own.
Not all views are valid. That should be pretty obvious. I don't consider carrying a firearm to be a valid view. It's paranoia on the level of believing lizard people run government.
Not all views are valid.
I don’t consider carrying a firearm to be a valid view.
It's interesting that you seem incapable of considering yours may be the invalid view.
It’s paranoia on the level of believing lizard people run government.
I'd argue being so terrified of the possibility someone might be legally carrying a firearm to, itself, be the indicator of paranoia.
You're making a lot of assumptions. I have considered both views and formed an opinion. You also seem to be implying that I'm "terrified" that someone could be carrying a gun, but I'm not sure how your jumped into my brain to figure that out.
I have considered both views and formed an opinion.
And yet, it's somehow unfathomable that a person might simply wish to exercise their rights in carrying a firearm - to you, the only possibility is such absurd hyperbole as paranoia on the level of believing lizard people run government. Truly, deep consideration.
You’re making a lot of assumptions.
You also seem to be implying that I’m “terrified” that someone could be carrying a gun, but I’m not sure how your jumped into my brain to figure that out.
I find one's absurd hyperbole to be an apt indicator. For example, seeking to portray those with a different view as unhinged and paranoid for - by all appearances - simply not agreeing with you.
That aside, it's simply the ironic mirror to your assumption of paranoia in others. Unless, of course you jumped into their brains.
I think the last time we cared about another country's opinion of how we live our lives was in 1775.
We'd definitely be better off if we actually care about how countries that are objectively better in multiple metrics do things differently.
Like oh I don't know, Healthcare. Plus the overwhelming amount of gun violence that doesn't exist in any other country than our own, the other ones are probably on to something.
They do tend to do the whole social safety net thing far better.
Well, how the people who haven't been shot yet live their lives at least.
my God do you realise how cringe this statement is
Open or concealed carry is insane. You Americans are unhinged.
This is from a gun owner.
Believing a politician can unilaterally suspend a right protected by both the federal and state constitution is unhinged.
I wasn't commenting on that, I was commenting on carrying a gun in public
Licensed concealed carriers have a lower violent crime rate than the general public. So its unhinged to ban these individuals from carrying thinking it'll stop criminals.
Again, I wasn't commenting about the ban. Just the desire to carry a gun in public.
Ah gotcha. Its about wanting to be safe. Violence happens unfortunately, so I concealed carry to give me the ability to defend myself (and more importantly my partner) if I ever am faced with that.
No offense but that is extremely paranoid. I love in a not so great part of a major city and have never really felt unsafe enough to feel the need to carry. Hell, even my step dad, who was a police officer and has been shot at, does not feel the need to carry. I guess I could see if you live somewhere super dangerous like St Louis or Wichita but it seems a bit silly otherwise.
Also, shouldn't your partner be the one carrying of they are the less safe of the two of you?
I'm not in st louis but I've had a knife pulled on me for attempting to enter walmart. Luckily however the guy decided not to attack, idk if it had anything to do with me grabbing the grip of my carry pistol or not, but I'd imagine it's pretty likely that's the reason he started running away.
Paranoid or not, I was able to afford food for that night and avoid being stabbed, so I'll just consider it my "good luck charm."
I don't see it as paranoid. I totally agree with you its unlikely I'll ever need it, but it costs me nothing to concealed carry where I can. Worst case my pants are slightly less comfortable, best case I save a life.
My partner is disabled and is of a very small stature which means I'm a far faster and more accurate shot so I carry when its the 2 of us. If theyre alone they carry a lower power pistol so they can handle using it.
Just to let you know, there is a near zero percent chance that it will save any life at all. And no, worst case is not that your pants are slightly less comfortable. Bad case would be you accidentally leaving it somewhere (lots of cases where people remove it while in the sitter and forget about it). Worst case would be you using it when it absolutely, positively is not necessary which again, there is a near zero percent chance it would be needed. If you are fine with all of that, that is okay but don't be under the impression that there are zero downsides outside of uncomfortable pants.
No youre right, it was a bit of hyperbole on my part.
I keep a very close eye on defensive gun legality and cases (Armed Attorneys is a great Youtube channel to start with if you're interested). You're right there are many things that can go wrong. I do my best to stay educated on the pitfalls others run into, I pay for carry insurance as well to help with legal fees if I ever do need to use it.
Good on you, mate. I wish more gun owners were similar.
sorry you feel unsafe in your country. You should move
Crime happens everywhere, some places more then others sure. But I prefer to have the right to the tools to protect myself, rather than just hope that I'll never need them.
Than the general public in America maybe, but legal gun owners in other countries have a violent crime rate of functionally zero, since they're properly vetted through laws that aren't dogshit.
But even giving you that point, what about all the violent crime those permissive laws enable?
Over 70% of mass shooters use legal firearms. Of the remaining, most are teenagers who took the poorly secured firearm of a family member.
There is no magic gun fairy distributing illegal firearms. Every firearm in the hands of a criminal was either bought legally, stolen from a "responsible gun owner" who didn't secure it, straw purchased or purchased through a loophole.
Nevertheless, the pro-gun community opposes more robust background checks, mandatory safe storage laws or the closing of loopholes.
And what does the public get in return? Mostly just shot because none of the pro-gun promises have come true.
Good guys with guns intervene in 3% of shootings. The crime rate remains the same as comparable countries. The country is no more free when measured by any metric except guns. The government spies on and kills its own citizens.
The gun laws are a failure.
I don't feel like writing an essay to address all your points, I don't have the time right now I'm sorry. Ultimately it comes down to the fact the highest law (and most state constitutions) of the land gives us the inalienable right to arms. Period. (And no "well regulated" does not mean legal regulations)
I believe we would be far better off dealing with the root of violence, like many European countries have done but gun control advocates like to only focus on gun control laws. People with financial, health, reproductive, and employment security don't commit violent crimes. Things like labor protections, maternity/paternity leave, mandatory vacation time, physical and mental healthcare that won't bankrupt you are some of the things that dramatically reduce all violent crime regardless of the tool used.
Look at violent crimes in the US compared to the UK for things like murder using only the human body (ie kicks, punches, strangulation, etc), its lower per 100k in the UK and many other European countries. There's no body control laws restricting how strong or trained your body can be, yet its lower. Its because people who's needs are actually met don't need to turn to or are driven to crime, our social protections in the USA suck ass and need to be fixed.
I agree with you. Even if the US got rid of every single gun in the country we'd probably still have just as many murders. There's something else at play here that causes us to be violent. As a general rule happy people don't kill others. Legislation to fix our social issues would go a long way towards reducing violence, but it's a whole lot easier to just say "guns bad".
You've built a idea of how murder works entirely in your imagination.
Absolutely not. Your odds of surviving a knife attack are an order of magnitude higher than of you are shot.
Yeah sounds good. How about we take your guns now and when you've finished building all of that, you can have them back?
After all, your post is clearly admitting that American society isn't fit for the near indiscriminate sale of guns to citizens.
Because guns in America are used defensively at least 1 to 1 (this ratio is higher in some studies) with their use in crime. So no, until the crime is gone I want to defend myself. And once crime is gone, then who are you making safer by disarming anyone.
Are you basing those numbers on the study that just asked gun owners about "defensive gun use" without any form of validation whatsoever?
Regardless, your talking point had nothing to do with anything I posted, you clearly just wanted to say it. Are you worried I might have hurt your guns feelings?
70% of mass shooters are legal gun owners. Of the remaining, most are children who took the unsecured firearm of a family member.
The pro-gun community has spent 20 years insisting that they (and they alone) have the answers yet the problem continues to spiral further out of control. The number of guns used in crimes that were bought through "gun show loopholes" is on the rise, but the pro-gun community still opposes background checks for private sales.
So regurgitate all the gun lobby talking points you want because your word is worthless.
You literally asked what if we took all he guns away and I gave a counterpoint why i think that would be bad. If you doubt my sources (which is impressive since i hadn't provided any yet) say so instead of jumping to insults. If you want to start ad hominem attacks, just reply to yourself cause I'm not interested in continuing the conversation.
So your answer to "What if we took your guns away?" is "Because guns in America are used defensively"?
Lie better.
Hey if being such an asshole to someone who's done nothing to you make you feel good, have fun. Not letting people provide evidence and going strait to being rude is a great way to think you're always right.
If even if I were that, I'd still have the moral high ground over someone who insists the deaths of hundreds of innocent people is just the price society has to pay for their hobby.
Because do you know what's far more offensive than someone "being rude" on the internet? Children mutilated beyond recognition by a legal gun owner.
The US isn't far removed from homicide rates of other countries when comparing the rates.
Ironically, you highlight the problem is violence and the drives to it over the firearms.
Fun little exercise for anyone clicking that link: Sort by highest homicide rate and scroll down until you hit "United States", counting the number of countries along the way that you'd be comfortable moving to and would expect to have a reasonably comparable quality of life to the USA.
Was the number zero? Probably, because most of those countries are not doing well. Wars, widespread poverty, corruption, exploitation, poor educational and medical outcomes.
I'm sure plenty of them are full of amazing people and cultures and would be great for a holiday, but they're not exactly nipping at the USAs heels when it comes to GDP.
Anyway, we've identified all the countries that are worse, what about the ones that are better? Keep scrolling down past the USA, still looking for that country you'd actually want to live in.
Takes a while huh? You'd think with all the promises the pro-gun people make and comparative wealth of America, it would be firmly in the #1 spot.
Nobody is claiming that gun control will stop all violence. But the existence of violence doesn't obligate us to provide quick, easy access to the means to escalate violence and maximise damage, even to people with a long history of red flags.
That's a horrible selection bias though. That is basically saying "this group of people with no violent crimes in their records has a lower violent crime rate than the general public which does." Of course they do.
Yes. You're right, these people are vetted by the state and authorized because they passed BG checks and firearms proficiency tests. Which is why a law targeting this group is dumb (beyond just being unconstitutional).
Definitely should have been in your initial point since I have often seen that point used by gun nuts as if they are some paragon of lawfulness. Permitted concealed carry owners are definitely not the ones committing violent crime in New Mexico. Can't really say the same for quite a few other states that allow permitless concealed carry though.
Good thing open carry isn't protected then.
"This from a gun owner" is my favorite take on the "how do you do, fellow kids" meme.
Well I own 5 guns and would never even consider carrying in public ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nifty. Neither being a firearm owner nor count of firearms in any way invalidates the decisions of those who choose to do so.
You're right. It was only a side point to imply that not every gun owner is as loony as certain American ones.
Unfortunately, the only loony stance here is that legally carrying firearms is somehow a loony thing to do.
It's always weird seeing how incapable some people are of considering that a different point of view is every bit as valid as their own.
Not all views are valid. That should be pretty obvious. I don't consider carrying a firearm to be a valid view. It's paranoia on the level of believing lizard people run government.
It's interesting that you seem incapable of considering yours may be the invalid view.
I'd argue being so terrified of the possibility someone might be legally carrying a firearm to, itself, be the indicator of paranoia.
You're making a lot of assumptions. I have considered both views and formed an opinion. You also seem to be implying that I'm "terrified" that someone could be carrying a gun, but I'm not sure how your jumped into my brain to figure that out.
And yet, it's somehow unfathomable that a person might simply wish to exercise their rights in carrying a firearm - to you, the only possibility is such absurd hyperbole as paranoia on the level of believing lizard people run government. Truly, deep consideration.
I find one's absurd hyperbole to be an apt indicator. For example, seeking to portray those with a different view as unhinged and paranoid for - by all appearances - simply not agreeing with you.
That aside, it's simply the ironic mirror to your assumption of paranoia in others. Unless, of course you jumped into their brains.
I think the last time we cared about another country's opinion of how we live our lives was in 1775.
We'd definitely be better off if we actually care about how countries that are objectively better in multiple metrics do things differently.
Like oh I don't know, Healthcare. Plus the overwhelming amount of gun violence that doesn't exist in any other country than our own, the other ones are probably on to something.
They do tend to do the whole social safety net thing far better.
Well, how the people who haven't been shot yet live their lives at least.
my God do you realise how cringe this statement is
Hah, a classic!