I'm pro abortion but 20 weeks seems like it's pushing that line for acceptable.
Article:
According to prosecutors, after the pair bought pills to end the pregnancy, Celeste Burgess gave birth to a stillborn fetus. At the time, Nebraska law banned abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy. Celeste Burgess’s pregnancy was well past that point, according to court records.
Police say that the Burgesses buried the fetal remains. An examination of the remains suggested they may have also been burned, according to court documents.
Did you also miss the part about her being a teenager? Mental health issues? Only $400 to her name? You would sentence her and the fetus to an extremely difficult life. If you advocate adoption, you probably don't understand the physical toll of carrying a fetus to term. So you'd be sentencing a teenager to undergo that still.
Pro abortion is a terrible way to frame that position. No one is advocating for more abortions. We are advocating for that option to be legally available alongside a multitude of support and educational routes to help people be fully informed as well as have access to proper birth control and medical care.
I'm advocating for abortions that make sense, i meant pro choice but pro abortion is fine too. As long as it doesn't endanger the mother.
I'm an advocate for adoption, I'm adopted. All of that fucking sucks right? Not having money, chance for issues because of a young mother, mental health issues. Who doesn't have mental health issues these days? Why wait 4-5 months? There are agencies that help people go across state lines to get abortions.
I have not given birth or been on the receiving end of investigations like this. But you are telling me going through 4-5 more months of carrying the baby to term would do more harm to this young lady than the invesigation process, wondering if you will get caught, getting caught, and then 90 days in jail would be better for her?
I think this whole thing is a shit situation and I'm sad to see them get sent to jail for something they could do legally in another state but endangering herself would not be what i would have done personally.
She is a teenager but she is 19, not 13/14/15. She is an adult
I have not given birth or been on the receiving end of investigations like this. But you are telling me going through 4-5 more months of carrying the baby to term would do more harm to this young lady than the invesigation process, wondering if you will get caught, getting caught, and then 90 days in jail would be better for her?
That's her choice to make. Birth is a traumatic event (for all women) carrying a chance of death and long-term damage to their body. It's not important what you think is easier or what you accept, it's her body and should be her choice.
Fair, i mean to some extent right. But an abortion on a fetus that is 9 months along would be to late right? Or not? If there is no harm to the baby or mother, how far along in your opinion is to far for an abortion?
I'm pro choice within reason. Pro lgbtq+ within reason. You enjoy your life just don't touch my butt.
But an abortion on a fetus that is 9 months along would be to late right? Or not? If there is no harm to the baby or mother, how far along in your opinion is to far for an abortion?
"Do women have bodily autonomy?" is a yes or no question. Does the state have a right to forced organ donation? No. And that's for fully formed people with experiences and relationships.
I’m pro choice within reason. Pro lgbtq+ within reason. You enjoy your life just don’t touch my butt.
This doesn't really sound like you are as much those things as you'd like to believe. You don't need to support a woman's right to choose "but" or associate sexual assault with LGBTQ+ rights.
We are a culture steeped in conservative influence campaigns with insufficient pushback from liberals so we develop these framings of topics that have intentionally twisted muich easier questions. Pro choice means pro choice and LGBTQ+ rights do not cause sexual assault.
Do women have bodily autonomy? No. My mom should not be able to go and hurt herself too the point of being hospitalized/instatutionalized. So no blanket body autonomy. At some point people that know more about the subject than me should step in for the health of those involved.
That is the same thing for abortion. As long as the health of everyone involved is taken into consideration that is all i care about. The tricky question is when is the fetus considered a person? I don't have an answer to that.
The "dont touch my butt" statement is a joke. You/they live their lives how they want. Just don't infringe upon my life and my rights aka "dont touch my butt". You want to go march at a gay parade? Sure. I've joined one in California. I've lived with lesbians, very good friends, fell out of touch recently thanks for reminding me to reach out.
Edit: and if you read my comments, never once have i said she should not have gotten an abortion. I just asked questions and expressed my reservations
Do women have bodily autonomy? No. My mom should not be able to go and hurt herself too the point of being hospitalized/instatutionalized.
This is an absurd dodge. Do women, in full possession of their faculties and well informed about their options, have bodily autonomy? Accepting that this case may not have involved well-informed medical decisions.
As long as the health of everyone involved is taken into consideration that is all i care about. The tricky question is when is the fetus considered a person?
This is a long way to say "no". Do you support forced organ donation? You don't have an answer for when fetuses are people, but people certainly are people.
The “dont touch my butt” statement is a joke. You/they live their lives how they want. Just don’t infringe upon my life and my rights aka “dont touch my butt”.
So then what is your "within reason" for LGBTQ+ rights then? Because you put your joke about sexual assault is in the same place you put your sincere belief about abortion. And what's the actual joke, because "it's just a joke" requires there to be humor involved. Explain the joke to me.
It wasn't a dodge it got my point across. "Do women, in full possession of their faculties and well informed about their options, have bodily autonomy?"
Yes they do.
You will have to excuse me, i do not understand your meaning behind "forced organ donation" in this context, could you explain that?
I believe i already started my within reason for lgbtq+ rights. I support them until they infringe upon my rights. The same as how i support other religions/races/genders/little people i support their causes as long as they don't infringe upon my rights.
As for explain the joke, no, I'm not going to. You may not find it humerous and maybe it's just not a great translation to text.
You may believe i don't support these causes, and that is your right, i do believe i support them and agree with them within reason and that is my right.
It wasn’t a dodge it got my point across. “Do women, in full possession of their faculties and well informed about their options, have bodily autonomy?”
Then it shouldn't matter how far along the pregnancy is, because any rule where you say "you can't remove this from your body in the safest way possible" is infringing on that.
You will have to excuse me, i do not understand your meaning behind “forced organ donation” in this context, could you explain that?
If someone needs a kidney and you are match for them, would you support the government forcing you to donate one of yours?
"you can't remove this from your body in the safest way possible" is infringing on that.
Ahh so in my opinion, that is the crux of our different stances. I have the belief that everyone has their rights until it infringes upon my rights or the rights of others. To me, in my opinion, at some point that fetus becomes a child/person and has rights of its own, now i don't know when that is i would say 3rd trimester maybe? again in my opinion. So unless there is danger to the mother or child eventually at some point the mother should bring the child to term. I think if you hit that 7th month you should know if you want to keep the baby and bring it to term. Whether you give the child up for adoption or raise it yourself is another matter entirely.
If someone needs a kidney and you are match for them, would you support the government forcing you to donate one of yours?
No, now what does that have to do with this?
So unless there is danger to the mother or child eventually at some point the mother should bring the child to term.
Proceeding to birth is both a physical hardship and a more dangerous method for removing the fetus. Why does the state get to tell the potential mother to spend the next two months pregnant (likely missing work at some point along the way) and then go through something with a risk to their life and with potential lifelong impacts on their body? Birth isn't a costless physical act.
If someone needs a kidney and you are match for them, would you support the government forcing you to donate one of yours?
No, now what does that have to do with this?
The person in need of the kidney has a right to life and your refusal infringes on it. If you're willing to tell women they must risk their health for a potential child, you should approve of the government forcing you to risk your health for a person who needs it. It's just a balance of rights, is it not?
The person in need of the kidney has a right to life and your refusal infringes on it. If you're willing to tell women they must risk their health for a potential child, you should approve of the government forcing you to risk your health for a person who needs it. It's just a balance of rights, is it not?
I would disagree here. Their right to life cannot infringe upon my rights. In my opinion that is a different scenario. I can understand if you disagree.
You are saying that a woman in full control of her facilities and in no danger of medical complications one day before her due date should be able to abort the fetus? What about giving birth half way babies head is out of the mother, can abort the baby? What about still connected before they cut the umbilical cord? Still able to abort?
That's not up to you to decide. That's a decision to be made between a doctor and patient privately.
The rest of your comment is just special pleading to placate your delicate and ill placed sensibilities. That is a healthcare decision, the same as anything else you'd go to a doctor for. You not agreeing with someone else's decision is your problem and yours alone.
I didn't say the abortions needed to make sense to me, they need to make sense to the people involved. Will i have an opinion on the matter sure. Does my opinion matter? No. If i disagree i will vote to put people into office that will hopefully vote the way i want on things. If more people vote the other way and my guy/gal doesn't win? That sucks try again another time.
And fuck my delicate ill placed sensibilities. I'm just here having a conversation. Expressing my thoughts, opinions, in a hopefully civil discourse.
I didn't say the abortions needed to make sense to me
Then why say it? Who else are you talking about and who decides what makes sense? Why would it have to make sense to anyone besides the doctor and patient?
If i disagree i will vote to put people into office that will hopefully vote the way i want on things.
And if some angry twat spouts lies like women are aborting at 9 months just for fun and that they'll stop that, whats to stop you from voting for an idiot like that because you both don't know what you're talking about?
You try very hard to defend a shitty position while not admitting you hold it. From your other comments you are fully buying into the bullshit propaganda about abortions. Then you take that misinformation to the voting booth. You claimed to have LGBT friends (while making a thinly veiled homophobic joke). Ask them for some information on abortions. Ask some women. Hell, ask a damn doctor.
It's OK to be wrong. It's OK to have fallen for some well dressed propaganda. Just learn from it and try to understand why that happened.
Why say what specifically?
As for who decides what makes sense, purple that are smarter than me, people that we vote into office, and hopefully the experts that we see when we go in for medical care.
And if some angry twat spouts lies like women are aborting at 9 months just for fun and that they'll stop that, whats to stop you from voting for an idiot like that because you both don't know what you're talking about?
Nothing is to stop me or anyone else from voting. Or should anyway. Nice job calling me an idiot i suppose. What specific position am i defending that has you do up in arms? What have i done other than mistakenly end my first comment in this thread with a period Instead of a question mark? I seriously want to know. As someone raised republican and now a Democrat, and a card carrying member of the church of satan, that donates to them every year, what position am i defending?
As for homophobic joke... I'm not a fan of women i don't know touching my butt, men i don't know touching my butt, or really anyone i don't know touching my butt.
When that teenage girl, i think of 14, from Ohio had to cross state lines to get an abortion because she was raped, i was appalled to hear of people saying "well there is no records of her being restored so obviously it's a political stunt".
Jesus fucking Christ people, put down your fucking pitch forks and try having a conversation with people. That's the only way you are going to change minds. Stop going to war and have civil discourse.
I know it's OK to be wrong, I've made many mistakes in life. But having my opinions on these matters is not one of them.
20 weeks is not pushing anything especially in states where it is extremely difficult to get an abortion. Some states require multiple doctor visits which can mean multiple days off work. That is not an easy task for many who are living paycheck to paycheck.
Also, who the fuck calls themselves pro-abortion?
That said, I read that she was about 28 weeks along. At that point it is considered a stillborn and needs to be properly disposed of. Burning the body and burying it in a friend's yard does not fall under proper disposal.
Also, who the fuck calls themselves pro-abortion?
I do. I am also pro-angioplasty and pro- root canal. These are all great medical procedures, and while it's sad when an individual needs them, its great that they exist.
It's absolutely a poor way to label yourself and the far right latch onto that and use it to convince their base that all pro choice people want more abortions and want to force those abortions on others. While you may have your own definition, it will absolutely be taken and used against you by the far right especially when you make it easy for them.
It's a poor way to frame your position. It somewhat implies you want more of them to happen. Personally I'd prefer no abortions happen. Not because they're illegal, but because there's no need for the operation. I'd also prefer no need for angioplasty or root canals. Kinda like the idiots that call themselves "pro life" yet support the death penalty and think it needs to be used more.
I mean me, abortion is great if done correctly and doesn't endanger the mother.
I have no idea as a guy with no kids how far along 20 weeks is in the gestation cycle. Other than there are about 4.3 weeks in a month and that'll put them just under 5 months along? Seems pretty far along to me but again i don't know the process.
I'm pro abortion but 20 weeks seems like it's pushing that line for acceptable.
Article:
According to prosecutors, after the pair bought pills to end the pregnancy, Celeste Burgess gave birth to a stillborn fetus. At the time, Nebraska law banned abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy. Celeste Burgess’s pregnancy was well past that point, according to court records.
Police say that the Burgesses buried the fetal remains. An examination of the remains suggested they may have also been burned, according to court documents.
Did you also miss the part about her being a teenager? Mental health issues? Only $400 to her name? You would sentence her and the fetus to an extremely difficult life. If you advocate adoption, you probably don't understand the physical toll of carrying a fetus to term. So you'd be sentencing a teenager to undergo that still.
Pro abortion is a terrible way to frame that position. No one is advocating for more abortions. We are advocating for that option to be legally available alongside a multitude of support and educational routes to help people be fully informed as well as have access to proper birth control and medical care.
I'm advocating for abortions that make sense, i meant pro choice but pro abortion is fine too. As long as it doesn't endanger the mother.
I'm an advocate for adoption, I'm adopted. All of that fucking sucks right? Not having money, chance for issues because of a young mother, mental health issues. Who doesn't have mental health issues these days? Why wait 4-5 months? There are agencies that help people go across state lines to get abortions.
I have not given birth or been on the receiving end of investigations like this. But you are telling me going through 4-5 more months of carrying the baby to term would do more harm to this young lady than the invesigation process, wondering if you will get caught, getting caught, and then 90 days in jail would be better for her?
I think this whole thing is a shit situation and I'm sad to see them get sent to jail for something they could do legally in another state but endangering herself would not be what i would have done personally.
She is a teenager but she is 19, not 13/14/15. She is an adult
That's her choice to make. Birth is a traumatic event (for all women) carrying a chance of death and long-term damage to their body. It's not important what you think is easier or what you accept, it's her body and should be her choice.
Fair, i mean to some extent right. But an abortion on a fetus that is 9 months along would be to late right? Or not? If there is no harm to the baby or mother, how far along in your opinion is to far for an abortion?
I'm pro choice within reason. Pro lgbtq+ within reason. You enjoy your life just don't touch my butt.
"Do women have bodily autonomy?" is a yes or no question. Does the state have a right to forced organ donation? No. And that's for fully formed people with experiences and relationships.
This doesn't really sound like you are as much those things as you'd like to believe. You don't need to support a woman's right to choose "but" or associate sexual assault with LGBTQ+ rights.
We are a culture steeped in conservative influence campaigns with insufficient pushback from liberals so we develop these framings of topics that have intentionally twisted muich easier questions. Pro choice means pro choice and LGBTQ+ rights do not cause sexual assault.
Do women have bodily autonomy? No. My mom should not be able to go and hurt herself too the point of being hospitalized/instatutionalized. So no blanket body autonomy. At some point people that know more about the subject than me should step in for the health of those involved.
That is the same thing for abortion. As long as the health of everyone involved is taken into consideration that is all i care about. The tricky question is when is the fetus considered a person? I don't have an answer to that.
The "dont touch my butt" statement is a joke. You/they live their lives how they want. Just don't infringe upon my life and my rights aka "dont touch my butt". You want to go march at a gay parade? Sure. I've joined one in California. I've lived with lesbians, very good friends, fell out of touch recently thanks for reminding me to reach out.
Edit: and if you read my comments, never once have i said she should not have gotten an abortion. I just asked questions and expressed my reservations
This is an absurd dodge. Do women, in full possession of their faculties and well informed about their options, have bodily autonomy? Accepting that this case may not have involved well-informed medical decisions.
This is a long way to say "no". Do you support forced organ donation? You don't have an answer for when fetuses are people, but people certainly are people.
So then what is your "within reason" for LGBTQ+ rights then? Because you put your joke about sexual assault is in the same place you put your sincere belief about abortion. And what's the actual joke, because "it's just a joke" requires there to be humor involved. Explain the joke to me.
It wasn't a dodge it got my point across. "Do women, in full possession of their faculties and well informed about their options, have bodily autonomy?"
Yes they do.
You will have to excuse me, i do not understand your meaning behind "forced organ donation" in this context, could you explain that?
I believe i already started my within reason for lgbtq+ rights. I support them until they infringe upon my rights. The same as how i support other religions/races/genders/little people i support their causes as long as they don't infringe upon my rights.
As for explain the joke, no, I'm not going to. You may not find it humerous and maybe it's just not a great translation to text.
You may believe i don't support these causes, and that is your right, i do believe i support them and agree with them within reason and that is my right.
Then it shouldn't matter how far along the pregnancy is, because any rule where you say "you can't remove this from your body in the safest way possible" is infringing on that.
If someone needs a kidney and you are match for them, would you support the government forcing you to donate one of yours?
Ahh so in my opinion, that is the crux of our different stances. I have the belief that everyone has their rights until it infringes upon my rights or the rights of others. To me, in my opinion, at some point that fetus becomes a child/person and has rights of its own, now i don't know when that is i would say 3rd trimester maybe? again in my opinion. So unless there is danger to the mother or child eventually at some point the mother should bring the child to term. I think if you hit that 7th month you should know if you want to keep the baby and bring it to term. Whether you give the child up for adoption or raise it yourself is another matter entirely.
No, now what does that have to do with this?
Proceeding to birth is both a physical hardship and a more dangerous method for removing the fetus. Why does the state get to tell the potential mother to spend the next two months pregnant (likely missing work at some point along the way) and then go through something with a risk to their life and with potential lifelong impacts on their body? Birth isn't a costless physical act.
The person in need of the kidney has a right to life and your refusal infringes on it. If you're willing to tell women they must risk their health for a potential child, you should approve of the government forcing you to risk your health for a person who needs it. It's just a balance of rights, is it not?
I would disagree here. Their right to life cannot infringe upon my rights. In my opinion that is a different scenario. I can understand if you disagree.
You are saying that a woman in full control of her facilities and in no danger of medical complications one day before her due date should be able to abort the fetus? What about giving birth half way babies head is out of the mother, can abort the baby? What about still connected before they cut the umbilical cord? Still able to abort?
That's not up to you to decide. That's a decision to be made between a doctor and patient privately.
The rest of your comment is just special pleading to placate your delicate and ill placed sensibilities. That is a healthcare decision, the same as anything else you'd go to a doctor for. You not agreeing with someone else's decision is your problem and yours alone.
I didn't say the abortions needed to make sense to me, they need to make sense to the people involved. Will i have an opinion on the matter sure. Does my opinion matter? No. If i disagree i will vote to put people into office that will hopefully vote the way i want on things. If more people vote the other way and my guy/gal doesn't win? That sucks try again another time.
And fuck my delicate ill placed sensibilities. I'm just here having a conversation. Expressing my thoughts, opinions, in a hopefully civil discourse.
Then why say it? Who else are you talking about and who decides what makes sense? Why would it have to make sense to anyone besides the doctor and patient?
And if some angry twat spouts lies like women are aborting at 9 months just for fun and that they'll stop that, whats to stop you from voting for an idiot like that because you both don't know what you're talking about?
You try very hard to defend a shitty position while not admitting you hold it. From your other comments you are fully buying into the bullshit propaganda about abortions. Then you take that misinformation to the voting booth. You claimed to have LGBT friends (while making a thinly veiled homophobic joke). Ask them for some information on abortions. Ask some women. Hell, ask a damn doctor.
It's OK to be wrong. It's OK to have fallen for some well dressed propaganda. Just learn from it and try to understand why that happened.
Why say what specifically?
As for who decides what makes sense, purple that are smarter than me, people that we vote into office, and hopefully the experts that we see when we go in for medical care.
Nothing is to stop me or anyone else from voting. Or should anyway. Nice job calling me an idiot i suppose. What specific position am i defending that has you do up in arms? What have i done other than mistakenly end my first comment in this thread with a period Instead of a question mark? I seriously want to know. As someone raised republican and now a Democrat, and a card carrying member of the church of satan, that donates to them every year, what position am i defending?
As for homophobic joke... I'm not a fan of women i don't know touching my butt, men i don't know touching my butt, or really anyone i don't know touching my butt.
When that teenage girl, i think of 14, from Ohio had to cross state lines to get an abortion because she was raped, i was appalled to hear of people saying "well there is no records of her being restored so obviously it's a political stunt".
Jesus fucking Christ people, put down your fucking pitch forks and try having a conversation with people. That's the only way you are going to change minds. Stop going to war and have civil discourse.
I know it's OK to be wrong, I've made many mistakes in life. But having my opinions on these matters is not one of them.
20 weeks is not pushing anything especially in states where it is extremely difficult to get an abortion. Some states require multiple doctor visits which can mean multiple days off work. That is not an easy task for many who are living paycheck to paycheck.
Also, who the fuck calls themselves pro-abortion?
That said, I read that she was about 28 weeks along. At that point it is considered a stillborn and needs to be properly disposed of. Burning the body and burying it in a friend's yard does not fall under proper disposal.
I do. I am also pro-angioplasty and pro- root canal. These are all great medical procedures, and while it's sad when an individual needs them, its great that they exist.
It's absolutely a poor way to label yourself and the far right latch onto that and use it to convince their base that all pro choice people want more abortions and want to force those abortions on others. While you may have your own definition, it will absolutely be taken and used against you by the far right especially when you make it easy for them.
It's a poor way to frame your position. It somewhat implies you want more of them to happen. Personally I'd prefer no abortions happen. Not because they're illegal, but because there's no need for the operation. I'd also prefer no need for angioplasty or root canals. Kinda like the idiots that call themselves "pro life" yet support the death penalty and think it needs to be used more.
I mean me, abortion is great if done correctly and doesn't endanger the mother.
I have no idea as a guy with no kids how far along 20 weeks is in the gestation cycle. Other than there are about 4.3 weeks in a month and that'll put them just under 5 months along? Seems pretty far along to me but again i don't know the process.