Are you sure it is not Hamas, that uses human shields?
Do we bomb banks when the robbers have hostages?
Killing civilians because they're in the way is BAD. Reporting shows Iarael is making minimal efforts to limit civilians casualties. That's a war crime. War crimes are bad.
I'm so fucking exhausted.
Edit: Before anybody tries a gotcha. Taking hostages and human shields are bad too. Multiple things can be bad at once.
I don't think there is any doubt that war crimes have occurred on both sides of this conflict.
There are real word criminal situations when the hostages do suffer as result of police action.
And the only way to encourage the use of human shield during the war like now, is to criticize the other side for deaths. If Israel stops because of the use of human shields, because all of the pressure now amounts from different players without even criticism of Hamas then FOR SURE next time (and there will be next time) Hamas will use human shields even more and more people will die.
"without even criticism of Hamas"
I typed out an edit before you even commented about how two things can both be bad. I wish you read it.
Human shields aren't being used because Israel has been too soft on Hamas. Extremism is created in places of oppression and desperation. To continue this genocide is to feed Hamas new members.
I would like for Isrealis to be safe. That isn't going to happen by adding fuel to the fire.
Additionally, you're justifying a genocide by saying it's the only way to keep them safe.
Nah we don't bomb banks, but if the robbers have been doing it for years yelling god is great, while massacring civilians , you too would expect someone to do something about it, or do we just put another lock on the bank hoping this time it will be enough.
Or we get rid of the circumstances that led to them becoming bank robbers.
Hamas does not just magically get support. People have been pushed to extremism by oppressive apartheid rule and genocide. TO BE CLEAR Hamas is bad and I am not justifying their actions. If you want to stop creating extremists you're an idiot if you thinking harming a bunch of civilians in your attempt to wipe them out is going to help.
Neither is letting them fire rockets towards you for years on end. There is only so much you can do with bank robbers that are funded by others around them, who believe it's their god given duty to rob banks. TO BE CLEAR civilians being killed is terrible on either side, just one side is putting a lot of effort into making bomb shelters and missile defense, while the other is putting in a lot of effort into creating tunnels to store and smuggle rockets.
In 2020 the US gave Isreal $3.8 billion. If you think Hamas is nearly as funded you're bad at math. I'm down to give Hamas an iron dome.
Do you think the effort is going towards tunnels and rockets because they're inherently evil or do you want to think about the variables that caused this situation. Variables like apartheid, genocide, Israel's military advantage, etc.
The US likely thinks that the nation state that was established by the UN to provide a home for a people victimized by an attempt to eradicate Jews in Europe is worth defending. I'm no fan of any of this shit, but as someone else recently pointed out, if Hamas stops receiving funding, the likely result is less conflict. If Israel stops receiving funding, three likely result is that they will be wiped off the face of the earth in short order. I believe there is truth to that.
If the US had given Hamas $3.8 billion, it definitely wouldn't have been used for an iron dome.
Yes I do believe Hamas is inherently evil, the same way I believe the north Korean leadership is evil.
Plenty of variables to take into account, and it's understandable how they got like this, but the same way a lot of serial killers have an abusive upbringing, does not mean everyone with an abusive upbringing will be a serial killers.
Plenty of that money has gone to killing Palestinian children. We need a more equitable distribution of resources if we're sending money over. I don't think we need equal amounts of rockets, but aid and a cease fire. If you don't trust the channels that money will go to that's what we have 3rd party humanitarian groups for.
You can think Hamas is evil. That wasn't my point. What do you think makes normal people turn into the types of people that join Hamas?
Do you want to reduce the amount of serial killers? You reduce the amount of abusive upbringings.
Do you want to reduce the amount of extremists?
Maybe we should send Hamas the Palestinian people more water pipes.
Gazans not having access to clean water and electricity at the hands of an oppressor is going to radicalize people against that oppressor.
I would like to reduce the casualties of Palestinian and Isreali citizens as much as possible. To come down harder on Palestinian civilians for the actions of Hamas is to send more people into the arms of Hamas.
Learn from the actions of the US post 9/11. The increase in terror attacks against US civilians was a consequence of US foreign policy. Isreal is not trying to have a humanitarian presence. Isreali people are hurt by the consequences of these oppressive policies.
Again, I am not justifying the actions of Hamas. Discussing the reasons for their actions is not an endorsement. If you want to stop systemic issuess you have to look at the root causes.
Fair points. I think that other guy was referring to Hamas apparently digging up water mains to use as materiel for building rockets. That sounded like bullshit to me but I've seen that story everywhere lately
Probably the first response I am in agreement with, there isn't an easy solution and I hope the one chosen has the least amount of casualties in the long run.
I have to go but I may come back to this. Have a good day, and hopefully neither of us will have to live through what's going on there.
What a fairy tale solution. Too bad it only works in fairy tales.
It's a "fairy tale" to think that increasing the oppression that created extremists in the first place is going to suddenly stop radicalizing people.
you too would expect someone to do something about it, or do we just put another lock on the bank hoping this time it will be enough
Americans have been shooting down each other in schools with guns for years. Don't see anyone doing anything about it....
Oh, no, here they come...a professional army can't do anything against the tactics of some tiny and cornered terrorist organization and needs to kill 10 thousand civili...I mean "human shields". So lame...
Oh no a professional army is doing something to protect its civilians, how dare they shoot back.
There is a difference between doing something and doing war crimes.
Something doesn't need to include callous indifference to the killing of civilians and children.
There is a difference between war crimes and what the internet calls war crimes. Did you know it's actually not a war crime to shoot at a hospital if there are military assets in it? That's actually in the Geneva convention. Same goes for civilians if there are military targets present. On the other hand, using hospitals and civilians to protect military assets is a war crime.
Yes, there is the moral aspect of it, but one side here is being called out for war crimes it's not actually doing.
The Geneva convention still requires that all possible measures are taken to limit civillian casualties and that the harm of civillians need to be in relation to the military goal achieved.
There is many reasons to question that Israel is taking these steps. It starts with the medical system of Gaza already being past
its limits, so any hit on a hospital is especially severe, as it renders the medical system even more unable to provide basic health care to people. It continues with deliberate cuts to telecommunication, so warnings are not reaching the civillians at targeted hospitals, regular attacks of designated evacuation corridors by the IDF, including targeting ambulances and the simple fact that you cannot evacuate an overburdendend ICU in 15 minutes if you have no place to take the patients or ambulances to get them there.
It goes on with there being no independant evaluation if Israels claims of military targets are actually factful, while there is plenty of reports where it seemed that only civillians have been it. Furthermore the language used by the IDF and Israeli government speaks opposite of protecting civillian lifes. From fighting against "human animals" to discussing nuclear attacks on Gaza by a government minister, who is still in his position afterwards.
Finally and most evidently the total blockade of Gaza in the first weeks and the continued limits to basic goods such as drinking water, food and medical supplies, with a continued blockade of fuel and targeting of electrical and water infrastructure is a huge fucking war crime. There is no basis in the Geneva convention that could justify depriving more than two million people of the immediate necessities for survival. It is a war crime through and through. Even after four weeks of international pressure the amount of food and water that gets to Gaza is still far too little to keep the population from starving.
It goes on with there being no independant evaluation if Israels claims of military targets are actually factful, while there is plenty of reports where it seemed that only civillians have been it.
So you're trusting the terrorists to tell you Israel has hit their members, but not a western country to tell you that they hit the terrorists?
with a continued blockade of fuel
Hamas has plenty of fuel. Nobody is condemning them for not sharing it with their own people
and targeting of electrical and water infrastructure is a huge fucking war crime.
Can you source that? So far Hamas has been the biggest destroyer of water infrastructure by digging up all the water pipes to use for rockets. As for electrical, Israel didn't need to hit it. They simply stopped giving free resources to their enemy and Hamas stole whatever fuel was left.
So you’re trusting the terrorists to tell you Israel has hit their members, but not a western country to tell you that they hit the terrorists?
Nowhere did i say that. I thought it obvious that in a war claims from either side are to be taken with scepticism and best confirmed independantly. Also UNRWA and international medical staff aren't terrorists.
Hamas has plenty of fuel. Nobody is condemning them for not sharing it with their own people
They stopped providing Gaza with free resources. They did not target existing infrastructure in Gaza.
That is a gross misrepresentation.
As the occupying force it is their obligation to provide the people with all necessities for survival, or enable the people to get these. As Israel has been blocking most transfer of goods it is extremely difficult for Gaza to build up an economy to buy all these things. But even if they could pay for them, Israel has been blocking the transfer of everything, including bombing the Rafah crossing to deny the entry of humanitarian aid from Egypt. By denying the entry of fuel, which is needed to operate the power plant, generators, desalination and wells, they have also targeted these infrastructures, because the, also explicitly stated goal, is to deny people electricity and water. Finally there have been attacks on solar panels, generator houses and water tanks at hospitals and residential buildings. Israel claims all of these to have been military targets. But if the solar panels are the only lifeline of people who need dyalisis and incubators for early born children, i struggle to see the justification in turning the lights out in some claimed Hamas tunnel nearby.
By nearby you mean under the hospitals themselves. That's also where the power goes to. Any leftovers might reach the hospital above. It's the same with all the other supplies. Hamas has plenty they have stolen for themselves abs refuse to share with their citizens.
Again these are Israeli claims, that are disputed by UNRWA and other humanitarian organizations, which are actually in Gaza.
Even assuming that Israels claims to alleged Hamas positions are true, the question remains if killing a hundred newborns justifies destryoing one Hamas position. Israel is assuming a blanket permission to bomb anything in Gaza with impunity, whereas the Geneva convention and other accords still require that the achieved military goals needs to exceed the civillian casualities.
And it is no coincidence that Israel did not ratify the ICC accords in order to not be held liable for its war crimes.
UNRWA is a joke. Half their members are also part of Hamas and they do not verify anything Hamas says. They just claim it as fact. Actually look into organizations you want to accept as fact.
The Geneva Convention's definition of genocide.
"... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, such as:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
You seem to defend a and b as necessary costs of doing business. Isreal's frequent attacks on civilians, journalists, medical personnel, and humanitarian groups seem to conflict this. Look into the killings of clearly marked journalists.
I'd argue that c is met by Isreal's control of Gaza's water and power along with the targeting of hospitals.
The Geneva Convention on collective penalties.
"No protected person may be punished for any offense he or she gas not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited."
Are you sure it is not Hamas, that uses human shields?
Do we bomb banks when the robbers have hostages?
Killing civilians because they're in the way is BAD. Reporting shows Iarael is making minimal efforts to limit civilians casualties. That's a war crime. War crimes are bad.
I'm so fucking exhausted.
Edit: Before anybody tries a gotcha. Taking hostages and human shields are bad too. Multiple things can be bad at once.
I don't think there is any doubt that war crimes have occurred on both sides of this conflict.
There are real word criminal situations when the hostages do suffer as result of police action.
And the only way to encourage the use of human shield during the war like now, is to criticize the other side for deaths. If Israel stops because of the use of human shields, because all of the pressure now amounts from different players without even criticism of Hamas then FOR SURE next time (and there will be next time) Hamas will use human shields even more and more people will die.
"without even criticism of Hamas"
I typed out an edit before you even commented about how two things can both be bad. I wish you read it.
Human shields aren't being used because Israel has been too soft on Hamas. Extremism is created in places of oppression and desperation. To continue this genocide is to feed Hamas new members.
I would like for Isrealis to be safe. That isn't going to happen by adding fuel to the fire.
Additionally, you're justifying a genocide by saying it's the only way to keep them safe.
Nah we don't bomb banks, but if the robbers have been doing it for years yelling god is great, while massacring civilians , you too would expect someone to do something about it, or do we just put another lock on the bank hoping this time it will be enough.
Or we get rid of the circumstances that led to them becoming bank robbers.
Hamas does not just magically get support. People have been pushed to extremism by oppressive apartheid rule and genocide. TO BE CLEAR Hamas is bad and I am not justifying their actions. If you want to stop creating extremists you're an idiot if you thinking harming a bunch of civilians in your attempt to wipe them out is going to help.
Neither is letting them fire rockets towards you for years on end. There is only so much you can do with bank robbers that are funded by others around them, who believe it's their god given duty to rob banks. TO BE CLEAR civilians being killed is terrible on either side, just one side is putting a lot of effort into making bomb shelters and missile defense, while the other is putting in a lot of effort into creating tunnels to store and smuggle rockets.
In 2020 the US gave Isreal $3.8 billion. If you think Hamas is nearly as funded you're bad at math. I'm down to give Hamas an iron dome.
Do you think the effort is going towards tunnels and rockets because they're inherently evil or do you want to think about the variables that caused this situation. Variables like apartheid, genocide, Israel's military advantage, etc.
The US likely thinks that the nation state that was established by the UN to provide a home for a people victimized by an attempt to eradicate Jews in Europe is worth defending. I'm no fan of any of this shit, but as someone else recently pointed out, if Hamas stops receiving funding, the likely result is less conflict. If Israel stops receiving funding, three likely result is that they will be wiped off the face of the earth in short order. I believe there is truth to that.
If the US had given Hamas $3.8 billion, it definitely wouldn't have been used for an iron dome.
Yes I do believe Hamas is inherently evil, the same way I believe the north Korean leadership is evil.
Plenty of variables to take into account, and it's understandable how they got like this, but the same way a lot of serial killers have an abusive upbringing, does not mean everyone with an abusive upbringing will be a serial killers.
Plenty of that money has gone to killing Palestinian children. We need a more equitable distribution of resources if we're sending money over. I don't think we need equal amounts of rockets, but aid and a cease fire. If you don't trust the channels that money will go to that's what we have 3rd party humanitarian groups for.
You can think Hamas is evil. That wasn't my point. What do you think makes normal people turn into the types of people that join Hamas?
Do you want to reduce the amount of serial killers? You reduce the amount of abusive upbringings.
Do you want to reduce the amount of extremists?
Maybe we should send
Hamasthe Palestinian people more water pipes.Gazans not having access to clean water and electricity at the hands of an oppressor is going to radicalize people against that oppressor.
I would like to reduce the casualties of Palestinian and Isreali citizens as much as possible. To come down harder on Palestinian civilians for the actions of Hamas is to send more people into the arms of Hamas.
Learn from the actions of the US post 9/11. The increase in terror attacks against US civilians was a consequence of US foreign policy. Isreal is not trying to have a humanitarian presence. Isreali people are hurt by the consequences of these oppressive policies.
Again, I am not justifying the actions of Hamas. Discussing the reasons for their actions is not an endorsement. If you want to stop systemic issuess you have to look at the root causes.
Fair points. I think that other guy was referring to Hamas apparently digging up water mains to use as materiel for building rockets. That sounded like bullshit to me but I've seen that story everywhere lately
Probably the first response I am in agreement with, there isn't an easy solution and I hope the one chosen has the least amount of casualties in the long run.
I have to go but I may come back to this. Have a good day, and hopefully neither of us will have to live through what's going on there.
What a fairy tale solution. Too bad it only works in fairy tales.
It's a "fairy tale" to think that increasing the oppression that created extremists in the first place is going to suddenly stop radicalizing people.
Americans have been shooting down each other in schools with guns for years. Don't see anyone doing anything about it....
Oh, no, here they come...a professional army can't do anything against the tactics of some tiny and cornered terrorist organization and needs to kill 10 thousand civili...I mean "human shields". So lame...
Oh no a professional army is doing something to protect its civilians, how dare they shoot back.
There is a difference between doing something and doing war crimes.
Something doesn't need to include callous indifference to the killing of civilians and children.
There is a difference between war crimes and what the internet calls war crimes. Did you know it's actually not a war crime to shoot at a hospital if there are military assets in it? That's actually in the Geneva convention. Same goes for civilians if there are military targets present. On the other hand, using hospitals and civilians to protect military assets is a war crime.
Yes, there is the moral aspect of it, but one side here is being called out for war crimes it's not actually doing.
The Geneva convention still requires that all possible measures are taken to limit civillian casualties and that the harm of civillians need to be in relation to the military goal achieved.
There is many reasons to question that Israel is taking these steps. It starts with the medical system of Gaza already being past its limits, so any hit on a hospital is especially severe, as it renders the medical system even more unable to provide basic health care to people. It continues with deliberate cuts to telecommunication, so warnings are not reaching the civillians at targeted hospitals, regular attacks of designated evacuation corridors by the IDF, including targeting ambulances and the simple fact that you cannot evacuate an overburdendend ICU in 15 minutes if you have no place to take the patients or ambulances to get them there.
It goes on with there being no independant evaluation if Israels claims of military targets are actually factful, while there is plenty of reports where it seemed that only civillians have been it. Furthermore the language used by the IDF and Israeli government speaks opposite of protecting civillian lifes. From fighting against "human animals" to discussing nuclear attacks on Gaza by a government minister, who is still in his position afterwards.
Finally and most evidently the total blockade of Gaza in the first weeks and the continued limits to basic goods such as drinking water, food and medical supplies, with a continued blockade of fuel and targeting of electrical and water infrastructure is a huge fucking war crime. There is no basis in the Geneva convention that could justify depriving more than two million people of the immediate necessities for survival. It is a war crime through and through. Even after four weeks of international pressure the amount of food and water that gets to Gaza is still far too little to keep the population from starving.
So you're trusting the terrorists to tell you Israel has hit their members, but not a western country to tell you that they hit the terrorists?
Hamas has plenty of fuel. Nobody is condemning them for not sharing it with their own people
Can you source that? So far Hamas has been the biggest destroyer of water infrastructure by digging up all the water pipes to use for rockets. As for electrical, Israel didn't need to hit it. They simply stopped giving free resources to their enemy and Hamas stole whatever fuel was left.
Nowhere did i say that. I thought it obvious that in a war claims from either side are to be taken with scepticism and best confirmed independantly. Also UNRWA and international medical staff aren't terrorists.
Israel claims that. Meanwhile UNRWA said they got some fuel from reserves, but those reserves to run out soon despite rationing. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/30/middleeast/fuel-gaza-crisis-map-dg/index.html
You are not aware of Israels announcement and subsequent total blockade of Gaza with food, water, medical supplies and fuel?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
They stopped providing Gaza with free resources. They did not target existing infrastructure in Gaza.
That is a gross misrepresentation.
As the occupying force it is their obligation to provide the people with all necessities for survival, or enable the people to get these. As Israel has been blocking most transfer of goods it is extremely difficult for Gaza to build up an economy to buy all these things. But even if they could pay for them, Israel has been blocking the transfer of everything, including bombing the Rafah crossing to deny the entry of humanitarian aid from Egypt. By denying the entry of fuel, which is needed to operate the power plant, generators, desalination and wells, they have also targeted these infrastructures, because the, also explicitly stated goal, is to deny people electricity and water. Finally there have been attacks on solar panels, generator houses and water tanks at hospitals and residential buildings. Israel claims all of these to have been military targets. But if the solar panels are the only lifeline of people who need dyalisis and incubators for early born children, i struggle to see the justification in turning the lights out in some claimed Hamas tunnel nearby.
By nearby you mean under the hospitals themselves. That's also where the power goes to. Any leftovers might reach the hospital above. It's the same with all the other supplies. Hamas has plenty they have stolen for themselves abs refuse to share with their citizens.
Again these are Israeli claims, that are disputed by UNRWA and other humanitarian organizations, which are actually in Gaza.
Even assuming that Israels claims to alleged Hamas positions are true, the question remains if killing a hundred newborns justifies destryoing one Hamas position. Israel is assuming a blanket permission to bomb anything in Gaza with impunity, whereas the Geneva convention and other accords still require that the achieved military goals needs to exceed the civillian casualities.
And it is no coincidence that Israel did not ratify the ICC accords in order to not be held liable for its war crimes.
UNRWA is a joke. Half their members are also part of Hamas and they do not verify anything Hamas says. They just claim it as fact. Actually look into organizations you want to accept as fact.
The Geneva Convention's definition of genocide. "... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, such as: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
You seem to defend a and b as necessary costs of doing business. Isreal's frequent attacks on civilians, journalists, medical personnel, and humanitarian groups seem to conflict this. Look into the killings of clearly marked journalists.
I'd argue that c is met by Isreal's control of Gaza's water and power along with the targeting of hospitals.
The Geneva Convention on collective penalties. "No protected person may be punished for any offense he or she gas not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited."