Rolling over for republicans is in their job description?!
... that explains a few things...
When politics function correctly, that is what they are supposed to do in order to get concessions on other important things. Compromise leaves everyone unsatisfied.
Compromise is supposed to come with consessions from BOTH sides, not just handing one side everything they actually want after they make an unreasonable request...
That's capitulation, not negotiation.
That's what the democrats were trying to do. Republicans tied funding for Ukraine and some other things to tightening border security. The democrats called their bluff. They said "Here's a border security bill that does what you've been asking for now let's get this all done". Republicans' made surprised Pikachu face and said "We didn't want it this way! We want it done by OUR president so he gets credit!" So, even though the Democrats were giving the Republicans what they've been asking for in exchange for things the Democrats wanted, the Republicans said "no".
Republicans never argue in good faith, and they always put power and politics over policy.
"That's what they were doing! Republicans made a dishonest and completely unneccessary move, and Democrats compromised with that unreasonable position!"
Yes... exactly. Democrats GIVE IN TO BAD FAITH DEMANDS. That is NOT negotiating. That is capitulating.
I don't think you really read my comment. Here's my summation of how the back and forth went:
Dems: We want funding for Ukraine.
Reps: We want border security. No funding for Ukraine without border security!
Dems: Okay! Let's do both!
Reps: Wait! We didn't really mean it!
The Dems called the Reps bluff and the Reps backed out. The Dems were getting something they wanted in the deal, too. Plus, Dems seem to be warming to the idea of border security more recently so they're not exactly getting nothing from that part either.
That doesn't sound like giving in to bad faith demands. That sounds like negotiating. It's just that the Reps aren't actually interested in negotiating and flipped the table over even though they were getting a pretty good deal. It shows the Reps as the selfish babies that they are while the Dems show willingness to actually get things done.
No, but Republicans convincing you it is, is the primary requirement in a Republican's job description.
Why do the Democrats let Republicans write their job description? They should negotiate, not capitulate. I know that's a difficult distinction these days given how much of the latter has been going on, but wake up and realize the difference.
They don't. You are letting Republicans write it and dismissing reality. You are their tool. A useful idiot. The poorly educated.
You are beyond pathetic if you think I support Republicans.
I'm pointing out that Democrats CONSTANTLY allow the Overton window to move to the right. They do these "compromises" that only offer legitimacy to the OUTRIGHT LIES of Republicans.
Democrats are the useful idiots, and you morons are here seal-clapping as the Dems give creedence to the Republican version of "border crisis".
There is no border crisis. Not a NEW one, anyways... and now you have Democrats screaming, "give me the power, I'll shut down the border today!"
You all are pathetic for failing to see who the actual useful idios are.
Please explain your grand strategy for passing meaningful legislation while the GOP controls a house of Congress. How exactly do Democrats pass aid to Ukraine?
You know how you move the Overton window back? Remove conservatives from Congress. You do that by winning elections. And you don't do that by SOLEY denigrating the only party we can actually capture and use to our advantage. You aren't helping the cause you supposedly support. You're just doing damage, not offering a single workable alternative solution, and throwing a temper tantrum. Saying "Democrats bad" over and over, while again not offering any real criticism of the GOP or a better solution, is precisely what a Republican would do.
Moderates control the party because they made specific strategic decisions to capture, grow, and maintain that power over many elections. We have to do the EXACT. SAME. THING. If you aren't willing to support that, just admit you'd rather have moderates or conservatives in charge.
Ahh yes, the classic, "please present a perfect solution if you want to complain about something."
Pathetic is the correct word for you. Stop making excuses for people that aren't even trying. You talk as if Republicans have all the power... and they do. Because Democrats fundamentally do not know how to use it.
Keep cheering on losers, though. It seems to be what this country loves on both sides of the aisle...
You can't even provide a single solution or explain why mine is flawed. You're acting as though every single elected Democrat is some moderate incapable of correctly welding power. That's nonsense. I'm talking about getting rid of those that aren't working on our behalf and you want to cry like a child to make yourself feel good and get attention.
I'm pointing out that the Dems DO NOT work on our behalf and you constantly cry like a bitch about, "nuhuh they're actually not ALL bad!"
Pathetic. I do not need to bring up a new point because you are defending lunacy. You are a moron defending the party clown that shows up drunk just because there's a party clown that shows up with a gun...
Did you just learn the word capitulate or something?
You’re suffocating all the discussion in this thread by making that “point” to anyone who replies.
Notice how no one is disagreeing with an actual point that means anything against what I said. Including yours. Good job failing to listen or think.
Nobody is disagreeing because nobody wants to interact with the guy who immediately replies to every comment in the thread, especially when it’s a 12 year old that just learned a new word.
Good job yet again bringing zero point or opinion in to the conversation. Pathetic. You get upset and completely lose the topic... At least I'm upset because powerful people are failing at their jobs, not because some rando hurt my feefees.
You’re upset because everyone in this thread is treating you like the feckless child that you are. You’re angry with me personally because I’m the only person willing to tell you why you’re getting downvoted.
But please go off sister.
You are quite seriously the only one calling me a child because you are the only one so pathetic that you only bring literally childish insults.
Please, tell me. How does giving in to an abuser HELP anyone?
You people are so fucking pathetic. Plenty of logic until it's politics, and then WOOP!! Oh no, we cannot help people, we don't have the income! Oh also here are some more tax breaks...
You buffoons who trust politicians are the fucking worst. You are a useful idiot, and your name calling over me pointing out that Republicans aren't the only shyster politicians proves it.
Because nobody else is even replying to you kiddo lol
Glad you turned me into a strawman though. Keep shadowboxing against the things you think I am. It’s a great look.
“You people” huh? 👀
The irony... Your repeated attempts infantilization only proves how inadequate your mind is.
The irony… your repeated attempts to “win” a non-competition proves how fucking idiotic you are.
Do you have any points to make, or are you going to continue being a pathetic hypocrite?
Oh yeah, they should do what the Republicans are doing and use a scorched earth, no compromise strategy! I mean, geez, look at all these huge legislative wins accomplished by this congress using this strategy. Maybe we can even have a cool purity-test driven speaker role, that's been working well for them! Anything else we should imitate that I'm forgetting? A demagogic, unrestrained president would definitely tie things up nicely.
Okay I'll stop being a sarcastic jerk now, but you get the point. This strategy from Republicans works wonders when it comes to obstructing and shutting things down, but you're never going to build anything with it. It's destructive at its core.
Do you think its a bad strategy for taking action that the people actually want?
Sometimes, yep. A small handful of decades ago, "the people" would have wanted gay marriage banned forever. Before that, interracial marriage. Before that, women's suffrage. I want a system that enacts good, just law in a stable manner and while I always think democracy should be a part of any system I would be a part of, pure democracy has no effective way of ensuring minority rights.
That's answering your question in the abstract. For this situation specifically, of course I want democratic, progressive legislation passed. In fact, I want to maximize the amount of democratic progress over the longest period of time, to the point where I'm willing to take losses on smaller items for the bigger picture.
Notice how I am distinctly not asking for Democrats to become as obstructionist. I'm saying they should act like adults dealing with unreasonable people.
If you act as if you have leverage you don't and refuse to engage with those who have power, your only choice is obstruction. This is what the Republicans are learning right this moment. Now, lucky for them, obstruction happens to coincide pretty well with their political objectives. For anything "constructive" though, they fail time and time again because none of them know how to compromise.
Politics is compromising with factions to achieve your goals. I loathe some of the things we have to compromise on, but these people exist and they will have representation in our government for as long as they do.
They do not deserve representatives that cannot uphold their oath of office just because they also think that way
We do not let murderers write the laws on murder, yet people CONSTANTLY excuse Congress for being illegally vile...
What the fuck is wrong with everyone? Neither party's behavior is acceptable REGARDLESS of how large the gulf between them is.
Note how I have never once said to not vote for dems over repubs. I just want people to realize you are not working with quality. You CANNOT expect dems to do the right thing on their own. Ever. They require constant pressure to the left, or they DO get dragged to the right.
This played out in real time and people EXCUSE the risk. The risk vs reward is pathetically small for gheir gamble. This was NOT a smart move even IF it worked out, and it's literal insanity to sit here and listen to buffoons defend a terrible decision that moves the Overton window to rhe right.
Yet again, people are cheering the Dems allowing the Overton window to slip to the right... Pathetic. Beyond pathetic. It will be the death of this country.
You talk about "acceptable" and "deserving" but you have to realize that power is the only thing that matters in the end. They get power, they enact their whims. They don't, they can't. Right now, they have it, so you have to negotiate. That's it, that's just how it works.
People who complain about the Overton window are wasting their time. You don't get to control that. Focus on winning what is possible with the window you have to work in. Expand that window if and when you can. Refusing to participate until the window looks like what you want it to is just ineffective.
And I just don't agree with your characterization of the dems. I have my problems with their direction or actions at times, but they've fought and won for my rights and for the rights of various others in my lifetime. I do consider the more leftist parts of the party to be allies, but I'm not willing to give complete credit for those victories to only that wing of the party. I think it's really disingenuous to look at the victories won for LGBT rights, climate change, and healthcare in the last 20 years (incomplete as they may be), and just write off the work done by democrats to achieve those.
No, that's the thing... we DO control the Overton window. Demovrats could easily stand their ground and keep it somewhere. They choose not to.
How much leftist progress came about because of Bernie and AOC simply being a voice of the left??
This shit matters, and Democrats CONSTANTLY shirk responsibility.
Listen, spend your time shaking your fist at the democrats and ignoring the realities of politics all you like, but it's not pragmatic. Again, I have my complaints, but overall I'm pleased with the way that democrats have operated recently. AOC is even a Democrat! It's a big party with a lot of viewpoints, but has a throughline of empathy, minority rights, and democracy. There have been wins that have personally affected me in massive ways, almost entirely won by democrats.
"Ignoring the reality of politics"
Ahh yes, you enlightened centrist, please tell me how CONSTANTLY letting dishonest actors be treated as if they are not dishonest helps anything?
The people denying reality are those like you. We NEED better than Democrats.
Stop creating excuses for them.
I'm not much of a centrist really. I guess maybe on the global scale, but I'm a pretty average socdem. I'm not creating excuses for them at all. I'm mostly happy with what Democrats have accomplished and warded off for me and the country in my lifetime, so there's nothing for me to excuse. There's always room to grow and improve, for sure, but expecting perfection and my entire wishlist is ignoring those pesky real world obstacles again.
If you're happy with the Dems, you're not paying attention. While global warming ramps up, they ask for a slow transition to NATURAL GAS. Democrats do that for all topics. They are feet draggers and excuse makers.
Yes, that's better than the cartoon villains of the Republicans... but if you're happy to be represented by useful idiots... you're not paying attention.
For all your noble ideals, you and much of the left has accomplished so little to achieve them. I share almost all of your convictions, but I value the people who can turn those dreams into a realistic plan and actually achieve it. That's why democrats have won my right to marry others of my gender. Democrats have won my partner healthcare. You want more, but what have you ever actually won for me? I value your ideas, but you should stop hating your allies that spend blood, sweat, and tears getting what is feasible into reality. You can't just ignore that you have obstacles and foes in your way who are going to chip away at what we all can do.
At the end of the day, we could be so much more productive together, focused on being better. Support and encourage to push things in your direction. Say "yes, and let's do more!" instead of "no, you should be doing this". We have complex problems to solve and nothing but imperfect people to fix them.
Rolling over for republicans is in their job description?!
... that explains a few things...
When politics function correctly, that is what they are supposed to do in order to get concessions on other important things. Compromise leaves everyone unsatisfied.
Compromise is supposed to come with consessions from BOTH sides, not just handing one side everything they actually want after they make an unreasonable request...
That's capitulation, not negotiation.
That's what the democrats were trying to do. Republicans tied funding for Ukraine and some other things to tightening border security. The democrats called their bluff. They said "Here's a border security bill that does what you've been asking for now let's get this all done". Republicans' made surprised Pikachu face and said "We didn't want it this way! We want it done by OUR president so he gets credit!" So, even though the Democrats were giving the Republicans what they've been asking for in exchange for things the Democrats wanted, the Republicans said "no".
Republicans never argue in good faith, and they always put power and politics over policy.
"That's what they were doing! Republicans made a dishonest and completely unneccessary move, and Democrats compromised with that unreasonable position!"
Yes... exactly. Democrats GIVE IN TO BAD FAITH DEMANDS. That is NOT negotiating. That is capitulating.
I don't think you really read my comment. Here's my summation of how the back and forth went:
The Dems called the Reps bluff and the Reps backed out. The Dems were getting something they wanted in the deal, too. Plus, Dems seem to be warming to the idea of border security more recently so they're not exactly getting nothing from that part either.
That doesn't sound like giving in to bad faith demands. That sounds like negotiating. It's just that the Reps aren't actually interested in negotiating and flipped the table over even though they were getting a pretty good deal. It shows the Reps as the selfish babies that they are while the Dems show willingness to actually get things done.
No, but Republicans convincing you it is, is the primary requirement in a Republican's job description.
Why do the Democrats let Republicans write their job description? They should negotiate, not capitulate. I know that's a difficult distinction these days given how much of the latter has been going on, but wake up and realize the difference.
They don't. You are letting Republicans write it and dismissing reality. You are their tool. A useful idiot. The poorly educated.
You are beyond pathetic if you think I support Republicans.
I'm pointing out that Democrats CONSTANTLY allow the Overton window to move to the right. They do these "compromises" that only offer legitimacy to the OUTRIGHT LIES of Republicans.
Democrats are the useful idiots, and you morons are here seal-clapping as the Dems give creedence to the Republican version of "border crisis".
There is no border crisis. Not a NEW one, anyways... and now you have Democrats screaming, "give me the power, I'll shut down the border today!"
You all are pathetic for failing to see who the actual useful idios are.
Please explain your grand strategy for passing meaningful legislation while the GOP controls a house of Congress. How exactly do Democrats pass aid to Ukraine?
You know how you move the Overton window back? Remove conservatives from Congress. You do that by winning elections. And you don't do that by SOLEY denigrating the only party we can actually capture and use to our advantage. You aren't helping the cause you supposedly support. You're just doing damage, not offering a single workable alternative solution, and throwing a temper tantrum. Saying "Democrats bad" over and over, while again not offering any real criticism of the GOP or a better solution, is precisely what a Republican would do.
Moderates control the party because they made specific strategic decisions to capture, grow, and maintain that power over many elections. We have to do the EXACT. SAME. THING. If you aren't willing to support that, just admit you'd rather have moderates or conservatives in charge.
Ahh yes, the classic, "please present a perfect solution if you want to complain about something."
Pathetic is the correct word for you. Stop making excuses for people that aren't even trying. You talk as if Republicans have all the power... and they do. Because Democrats fundamentally do not know how to use it.
Keep cheering on losers, though. It seems to be what this country loves on both sides of the aisle...
You can't even provide a single solution or explain why mine is flawed. You're acting as though every single elected Democrat is some moderate incapable of correctly welding power. That's nonsense. I'm talking about getting rid of those that aren't working on our behalf and you want to cry like a child to make yourself feel good and get attention.
I'm pointing out that the Dems DO NOT work on our behalf and you constantly cry like a bitch about, "nuhuh they're actually not ALL bad!"
Pathetic. I do not need to bring up a new point because you are defending lunacy. You are a moron defending the party clown that shows up drunk just because there's a party clown that shows up with a gun...
Did you just learn the word capitulate or something?
You’re suffocating all the discussion in this thread by making that “point” to anyone who replies.
Notice how no one is disagreeing with an actual point that means anything against what I said. Including yours. Good job failing to listen or think.
Nobody is disagreeing because nobody wants to interact with the guy who immediately replies to every comment in the thread, especially when it’s a 12 year old that just learned a new word.
Good job yet again bringing zero point or opinion in to the conversation. Pathetic. You get upset and completely lose the topic... At least I'm upset because powerful people are failing at their jobs, not because some rando hurt my feefees.
You’re upset because everyone in this thread is treating you like the feckless child that you are. You’re angry with me personally because I’m the only person willing to tell you why you’re getting downvoted.
But please go off sister.
You are quite seriously the only one calling me a child because you are the only one so pathetic that you only bring literally childish insults.
Please, tell me. How does giving in to an abuser HELP anyone?
You people are so fucking pathetic. Plenty of logic until it's politics, and then WOOP!! Oh no, we cannot help people, we don't have the income! Oh also here are some more tax breaks...
You buffoons who trust politicians are the fucking worst. You are a useful idiot, and your name calling over me pointing out that Republicans aren't the only shyster politicians proves it.
Because nobody else is even replying to you kiddo lol
Glad you turned me into a strawman though. Keep shadowboxing against the things you think I am. It’s a great look.
“You people” huh? 👀
The irony... Your repeated attempts infantilization only proves how inadequate your mind is.
The irony… your repeated attempts to “win” a non-competition proves how fucking idiotic you are.
Do you have any points to make, or are you going to continue being a pathetic hypocrite?
Oh yeah, they should do what the Republicans are doing and use a scorched earth, no compromise strategy! I mean, geez, look at all these huge legislative wins accomplished by this congress using this strategy. Maybe we can even have a cool purity-test driven speaker role, that's been working well for them! Anything else we should imitate that I'm forgetting? A demagogic, unrestrained president would definitely tie things up nicely.
Okay I'll stop being a sarcastic jerk now, but you get the point. This strategy from Republicans works wonders when it comes to obstructing and shutting things down, but you're never going to build anything with it. It's destructive at its core.
Do you think its a bad strategy for taking action that the people actually want?
Sometimes, yep. A small handful of decades ago, "the people" would have wanted gay marriage banned forever. Before that, interracial marriage. Before that, women's suffrage. I want a system that enacts good, just law in a stable manner and while I always think democracy should be a part of any system I would be a part of, pure democracy has no effective way of ensuring minority rights.
That's answering your question in the abstract. For this situation specifically, of course I want democratic, progressive legislation passed. In fact, I want to maximize the amount of democratic progress over the longest period of time, to the point where I'm willing to take losses on smaller items for the bigger picture.
Notice how I am distinctly not asking for Democrats to become as obstructionist. I'm saying they should act like adults dealing with unreasonable people.
If you act as if you have leverage you don't and refuse to engage with those who have power, your only choice is obstruction. This is what the Republicans are learning right this moment. Now, lucky for them, obstruction happens to coincide pretty well with their political objectives. For anything "constructive" though, they fail time and time again because none of them know how to compromise.
Politics is compromising with factions to achieve your goals. I loathe some of the things we have to compromise on, but these people exist and they will have representation in our government for as long as they do.
They do not deserve representatives that cannot uphold their oath of office just because they also think that way
We do not let murderers write the laws on murder, yet people CONSTANTLY excuse Congress for being illegally vile...
What the fuck is wrong with everyone? Neither party's behavior is acceptable REGARDLESS of how large the gulf between them is.
Note how I have never once said to not vote for dems over repubs. I just want people to realize you are not working with quality. You CANNOT expect dems to do the right thing on their own. Ever. They require constant pressure to the left, or they DO get dragged to the right.
This played out in real time and people EXCUSE the risk. The risk vs reward is pathetically small for gheir gamble. This was NOT a smart move even IF it worked out, and it's literal insanity to sit here and listen to buffoons defend a terrible decision that moves the Overton window to rhe right.
Yet again, people are cheering the Dems allowing the Overton window to slip to the right... Pathetic. Beyond pathetic. It will be the death of this country.
You talk about "acceptable" and "deserving" but you have to realize that power is the only thing that matters in the end. They get power, they enact their whims. They don't, they can't. Right now, they have it, so you have to negotiate. That's it, that's just how it works.
People who complain about the Overton window are wasting their time. You don't get to control that. Focus on winning what is possible with the window you have to work in. Expand that window if and when you can. Refusing to participate until the window looks like what you want it to is just ineffective.
And I just don't agree with your characterization of the dems. I have my problems with their direction or actions at times, but they've fought and won for my rights and for the rights of various others in my lifetime. I do consider the more leftist parts of the party to be allies, but I'm not willing to give complete credit for those victories to only that wing of the party. I think it's really disingenuous to look at the victories won for LGBT rights, climate change, and healthcare in the last 20 years (incomplete as they may be), and just write off the work done by democrats to achieve those.
No, that's the thing... we DO control the Overton window. Demovrats could easily stand their ground and keep it somewhere. They choose not to.
How much leftist progress came about because of Bernie and AOC simply being a voice of the left??
This shit matters, and Democrats CONSTANTLY shirk responsibility.
Listen, spend your time shaking your fist at the democrats and ignoring the realities of politics all you like, but it's not pragmatic. Again, I have my complaints, but overall I'm pleased with the way that democrats have operated recently. AOC is even a Democrat! It's a big party with a lot of viewpoints, but has a throughline of empathy, minority rights, and democracy. There have been wins that have personally affected me in massive ways, almost entirely won by democrats.
"Ignoring the reality of politics"
Ahh yes, you enlightened centrist, please tell me how CONSTANTLY letting dishonest actors be treated as if they are not dishonest helps anything?
The people denying reality are those like you. We NEED better than Democrats.
Stop creating excuses for them.
I'm not much of a centrist really. I guess maybe on the global scale, but I'm a pretty average socdem. I'm not creating excuses for them at all. I'm mostly happy with what Democrats have accomplished and warded off for me and the country in my lifetime, so there's nothing for me to excuse. There's always room to grow and improve, for sure, but expecting perfection and my entire wishlist is ignoring those pesky real world obstacles again.
If you're happy with the Dems, you're not paying attention. While global warming ramps up, they ask for a slow transition to NATURAL GAS. Democrats do that for all topics. They are feet draggers and excuse makers.
Yes, that's better than the cartoon villains of the Republicans... but if you're happy to be represented by useful idiots... you're not paying attention.
For all your noble ideals, you and much of the left has accomplished so little to achieve them. I share almost all of your convictions, but I value the people who can turn those dreams into a realistic plan and actually achieve it. That's why democrats have won my right to marry others of my gender. Democrats have won my partner healthcare. You want more, but what have you ever actually won for me? I value your ideas, but you should stop hating your allies that spend blood, sweat, and tears getting what is feasible into reality. You can't just ignore that you have obstacles and foes in your way who are going to chip away at what we all can do.
At the end of the day, we could be so much more productive together, focused on being better. Support and encourage to push things in your direction. Say "yes, and let's do more!" instead of "no, you should be doing this". We have complex problems to solve and nothing but imperfect people to fix them.