Hey wait a minute I thought we were all voting for Republicans because the Democrats didn't immediately get Israel to do all the things we wanted them to do.
Literally who is voting Republican over Gaza? And before you say it, no. Not engaging with a two party election in which both candidates support genocide is not the same as voting for the one you don't like.
Sarcasm.
No some of us just aren't showing up to vote for Biden. Personally I'll be voting for a 3rd party candidate or writing in. We made it clear we didn't support Biden as a choice in the 2020 primaries. Progressives and leftists provided multiple alternatives we would have generally all backed in the general even though we definitely had our favorites.
Moderates responded by claiming "We can push Biden to the left." Many progressive and leftist voters took this to mean we had a seat at the table so we showed up in the 2020 general election. After four years of Biden it's very clear we continue to have no seat at the table despite being desperately needed to win the 2024 general election. Moderates continue to bank on using the fear of Trump to coerce progressives and leftists to show up to vote while having zero influence at all. Then they have a melt down and call us entitled when we say we've had enough and we're walking away from the table we don't have a seat at.
Moderates can either compromise with leftists or progressives or lose to fascists. It's really that simple.
Well, guess what's gonna happen then. If you are in danger of starving, do you refuse a bruised apple or wait for pizza?
Frankly I'm tired of these made up questions. Do you want to compromise with progressives and leftists or lose to fascists? Stop bargaining, make a choice and be confident that the outcome is what you chose.
So your choice is to lose to fascists...? Because if people don't vote for Biden, Democrats will lose to fascists.
No made up analogy there. Straight up go to jail, don't pass go, end of democracy, Trump dictatorship. This honestly is not hyperbole this time around.
Sounds like y’all need our help but aren’t willing to listen to us.
I heard all this same shit last time.
I am done being the only one who has to compromise.
Fix your candidate if you want my votes
Sounds like you better try to work on moderates then.
So even though you don't think it's what you're doing, you're choosing neutrality. And "neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim."
I'd consider myself more a leftist than not, but I'm not blind. Events like this make it quite clear how much worse the other option is. Neither side actually cares, so I'm going with the side that does the least harm, even though I don't think it goes far enough.
You're free to call yourself whatever you want but all you're doing is repeating moderate talking points for them. Whatever your beliefs are, your actions support moderate politics. The same politics which have failed to address Trump.
I'm not beholden to any party or wing thereof. I see a news story like this, though, and I'll do whatever I can to keep that party out of office.
Have you tried telling moderates they need to wise up and start compromising with progressives and leftists?
Of course. Hasn't everyone? But the moderates hold all the power, both in Washington and in the media; which means that if they won't make a compromise with the left, they'll make a compromise with the right. And remember, there currently is no moderate right.
Which deal do you want to see?
Of course. Hasn’t everyone?
Give me some examples.
[moderates will] make a compromise with the right
Yes, moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with leftists and progressives. They're selfish pieces of shit.
Agreed. Doesn't mean that letting their selfishness kill people is the right option.
Give me some examples.
Come on, man. You're on Lemmy. You've seen every third post in /c/politics. You know the score.
Again as someone from a minority wing I'm not "letting" them do anything. If I'm not a part of a large enough wing to warrant compromise then I'm not a part of a large enough wing to have an impact. Moderates can't keep controlling the narrative that people like me are at fault while also being irrelevant. They need to pick one. Until they do, I'm going with I'm irrelevant.
Moderates criticisms of leftists and progressives score much much higher than the other way around. I'd like to see that change. If it changes here it will either mean everyday opinions have shifted or cause everyday opinions to shift.
People need to start telling moderates as the majority voting bloc when Democrat candidates lose it's their fault.
If I'm not a part of a large enough wing to warrant compromise then I'm not a part of a large enough wing to have an impact.
You're binarizing something that is definitely not binary; this is a far, far more complex system than that, and assuming it to be this simple is incredibly naive. Your actions may very well be enough to tip something over in one direction, but not in the other. In fact, that's most likely to be true; adding a few more individuals to a critically endangered population of animals probably won't cause them to suddenly bounce back, but removing them from that population is very likely to cause their extinction.
Moderates criticisms of leftists and progressives score much much higher than the other way around. I'd like to see that change.
Me too. Very much so. But would you listen to someone who said you weren't worth making deals with? A quarter-century of progressives taking this tactic have only pushed Democrats further to the right and moved the Overton Window away from the world we'd like to see. Do you really think continuing on this course is likely to change the outcome?
People need to start telling moderates as the majority voting bloc when Democrat candidates lose it's their fault.
Cool message. Are you cool with millions of people dying and democracy in the US ending entirely in order to send it?
The stakes are too high. Jack Posobiec, on stage at CPAC yesterday, said, "We’re here to overthrow democracy completely. We didn’t get all the way there on January 6th, but we will endeavor to get rid of it & replace it with this right here." The "this" he was talking about was his own clenched fist. And the people present, including Steve Bannon, cheered him loudly. Trump is speaking there tomorrow, and if you think he's going to rationally give a repudiation of what Posobiec said...well, that would explain your viewpoint, honestly.
I want you to see the privilege you're exercising in order to say this. I know you feel like you are being ignored, and maybe you are, but the fact that you're able to make this statement means that you're not in a cage on the Southern border, or hemmed in on the ground in Gaza, or pinned down by Russian fire in Ukraine. You have the privilege to be this petulant, and I want you to recognize that.
If you do, and you've decided that this is how you want to spend that privilege--rather than helping get progressive or leftist candidates on ballots, rather than holding existing politicians to account, rather than helping people in your community who need food and shelter, rather than being a resource for oppressed people fleeing red states--that's your decision. But again, don't make the mistake of calling us immoral for being willing to tear down the system from the inside rather than standing on the outside complaining that nobody inside will listen.
Or, you can stand up and find your voice and fight with us against it
And how many people will the Republicans kill, disenfranchise, or otherwise dehumanize before somebody starts listening to my voice?
I certainly couldn't have that on my conscience.
Moderates are the majority voting bloc. They must take the lions share of the responsibility.
Cool, just tell that to all the Palestinians that Ogles wants to kill. I'm sure that'll make them feel better that it's not you in particular who bears the responsibility for their deaths.
You realize Palestinians are dying today as a result of bombs being given to Israel by Biden through an executive order right?
Yes. And I also realize that the other side wants to drive our military over there to do it ourselves. Both sides suck. One side sucks way more.
Then get on telling moderates they're selfish pieces of shit.
Let's maybe just do this in the one place, 'k?
But you will if you guys continue to say fuck you to is.
You guys are choosing to run that candidate with all the risk that takes.
Why is it ALWAYS on us to give in to you guys?
If your person is popular enough he will win, if not, we’ll that’s the horse that y’all bet on knowing how so many of us feel.
Why is it ALWAYS on us to give in to you guys?
Again with the "you guys." I really don't know where you get the idea that I'm all-in on Democrats somehow.
Anyway, you don't have to "give in." We just have to recognize that the only party who has a ghost of a chance of (a) getting into office and (b) doing things we want is the one that put Biden on the slate.
If your person is popular enough he will win, if not, we’ll that’s the horse that y’all bet on knowing how so many of us feel.
I don't have any more control over the DNC than you do, so stop acting like this is any more than a tantrum. You don't need to convince me. You just need to find a way to deal with your anger that doesn't result in the deaths of millions.
I really don’t know where you get the idea that I’m all-in on Democrats somehow.
Because you're spending your time and energy lecturing leftists and progressives. Unless you can somehow show me that you're spending more time lecturing moderates then your actions are full support for Democrat politicians regardless of what your actual beliefs are.
show me
Bro, I'm not taking homework from you. I have no need to prove myself to you. You're going to either need to trust me on this, or just shut up about it, because I'm not going to provide you audio recordings of me talking to my current neighbors or people back in my hometown, or my private text conversations with people who I grew up with, or my Facebook comment discussions with people I barely know. I don't harangue people on Lemmy about leftism because most of the people on Lemmy are already predisposed to our side.
Don't mistake online life for the only part of real life.
You said
I really don’t know where you get the idea that I’m all-in on Democrats somehow.
I explained and explained how you could debunk that idea. I never suggested you had to. But until you do your comments say you're "all-in on Democrats".
I don’t harangue people on Lemmy about leftism because most of the people on Lemmy are already predisposed to our side.
And yet you defend moderates at every turn. Buddy, you're a moderate. You're a full blown Democrat establishment supporter. If you really are on the side of leftists and progressives then fucking stop fighting with us.
I'm not defending anyone. I couldn't care less who wins; I just want the GOP to lose, and I know what has to happen for that outcome. I just want to prevent actual, literal carnage by showing you what your petulance is going to lead to.
you're spending your time and energy lecturing leftists and progressives.
I'm really not. I type quickly, and I'm here anyway. My time and energy goes into my family and my community, which is why I actually care about what happens in November in more than just the abstract.
Buddy. You are literally spending time arguing with us. I didn't say you didn't spend time with family or community. Just that you are here and putting time and effort arguing with us.
If you aren't spending a greater amount of time and energy lecturing moderates guess what? That's where we get the idea you're "all-in on Democrats". Because you spend more time and energy defending them than criticizing them.
Show me where I've defended a single democrat.
I'm not defending anyone. I'm trying to show you that your privileged stance has the potential to lead to some pretty dire outcomes.
Stand up in the primaries, we're in the general election now. This is the only strategy that works with FPTP.
The 6 months before the general election is the only period when you don't want to create division. That gives you 3 years and 6 months for critical discussion which is fairly reasonable.
Stand up in the primaries
We did. There were a wide range of leftist and progressive candidates to chose from. Moderates said "none of those we choose this old guy who's gonna block strikes, force federal workers back into the office and supply weapons to Israel."
The Trump Supreme court has intervened to shut down any meaningful progressive initiatives (see student loan forgiveness, for example).
I think Biden fumbled that himself. Along with the BBB, increasing the defense budget, the CHIPS act and the way he treated the UAW. On top of that his appointments Yellen and Powell are in an outright war with American Workers, he pushed to block the rail strike and he's supplying weapons to Israel.
That's plenty of opportunities I can think of where Biden could have done something different. I'm open to other ideas as well. But if you're just trying to tell me Biden couldn't do anything different than he has that's a terrible sales pitch for someone you want me to vote for in the 2024 general. I'll be there but I'm gonna be voting 3rd party or a write in.
you don't seem to think much of your own and no one is trying to convince you of anything. sounds like you want a president who intervenes beyond the scope of his power. which you'll have under Trump. people get the leaders they deserve
Biden had the power to not get involved with the rail strike. He had the power to veto the legislation which blocked the rail strike. He has the ability to stop sending weapons to Israel.
people get the leaders they deserve
Indeed. That includes moderates who refused to compromise with leftists and progressives.
I don't think anyone was arguing you can push Biden to the left. I guess you had that Bernie commission but nothing was promised beyond that. What happened is more people voted for Biden so he won. That's democracy.
I'm not saying you have to vote for Biden, you're allowed to do whatever, but it's not some fairy tale that by not voting for Biden you're helping Trump. You are, you just don't care. You would rather Trump be president for the next 4 years because you think Moderate Democrats will learn some lesson that they didn't the last time the exact same thing happened in 2016.
What will really happen is moderates will claim the candidate catered to the left so much that it turned off moderates (or pick a group, didnt cater enough to suburban Hispanics or whatever), and the Left will say the candidate didn't cater to the left enough, and in 2028 that won't be resolved and the person who wins the most votes will win again entirely unrelated to the question. So you're not sending the message you think you're sending, you're just hurting the candidate whose interests are the closest to yours. Allowed, but not what I'd recommend as a political strategy.
What will really happen is moderates will claim the candidate catered to the left so much that it turned off moderates (or pick a group, didnt cater enough to suburban Hispanics or whatever), and the Left will say the candidate didn’t cater to the left enough, and in 2028 that won’t be resolved and the person who wins the most votes will win again entirely unrelated to the question.
But, thats what always happens anyways in every election, regardless if Trump is running or not.
So you’re not sending the message you think you’re sending, you’re just hurting the candidate whose interests are the closest to yours. Allowed, but not what I’d recommend as a political strategy.
I guarantee you, when they go back to do a postmortem post-election, and see a whole voting block not showing up, that'll definitely send a message.
They're actually already seeing it today, or do you not wonder why Biden keeps trying to pay off student loans every way he has available to him.
Its the party's responsibility to offer candidates that people can vote for, and not demand people to vote for the party so the other party does not win. Coercing a vote out of someone is not the American thing to do.
But, thats what always happens anyways in every election, regardless if Trump is running or not.
Right, my point is that you aren't "teaching moderate Democrats a lesson" by helping Trump. You're just helping Trump.
I guarantee you, when they go back to do a postmortem post-election, and see a whole voting block not showing up, that'll definitely send a message.
No post mortem has ever decided the candidate needed to be further from the center to gain more votes. I don't see why you think it would happen now. There are more people in the middle, and winning over a vote from Trump is worth twice as much as moving a non-voting Leftist to vote. Those are the tradeoffs of campaigning.
They're actually already seeing it today, or do you not wonder why Biden keeps trying to pay off student loans every way he has available to him.
Magnificent. Biden is doing something you like, this is somehow evidence of why you shouldn't vote for him.
Biden does some left wing stuff too, yes. He's not trying to alienate left wing people, he is doing electorally popular things, and he has to get Republicans on board for any law he wants to pass. This forces moderation. If you are demanding Medicare For All or you won't vote for him, you just aren't living in reality.
Its the party's responsibility to offer candidates that people can vote for, and not demand people to vote for the party so the other party does not win. Coercing a vote out of someone is not the American thing to do.
To be clear, the party isn't saying this, I am. Biden is trying to be popular to the widest swath of people possible, to beat Trump. If you're saying you're going to vote against him to send a message nobody is going to listen to, I think you're making a mistake and helping the guy you hate, way more than you are doing any good.
The way to send an inter-party message is in the primaries. Get your person (or a person significantly closer to you ideologically) to be the candidate and make everyone else choose between them or the guy they hate. If Bernie was the candidate I'd be telling moderates to vote for him just like this.
I honestly disagree with you on many of your assertions, but I have already voted in the primary to someone else besides Biden, to do that signaling you mentioned.
And as far as the student loan thing goes, the Democrats know they're really in trouble with the younger voting block, and the quantity and the insistence of them trying to do something over and over again is the point I was trying to bring to the discussion, to show that not voting party lines send signals (which you disagree with). Its not just about that I disagree with something that I like for him to do as you have asserted. It's a signal that they recognize already the problem and they're trying to course correct on it. The signal was received.
To bottom line this, it's the party's responsibility to save America from Trump, and not the voters. The party has to put up people that the voters will want to vote for. If he's not fit for office today, there's a good chance during the next four years he will become unfit for office.
For the good of the country, Biden should step aside, and let someone healthier run for the party nomination, OR have third party medical personnel confirm his cognitive abilities right now, and how long they will last throughout his whole second term in office, and make that information available publicly, so voters can use it to help decide on who to vote for.
I don’t think anyone was arguing you can push Biden to the left. I guess you had that Bernie commission but nothing was promised beyond that. What happened is more people voted for Biden so he won. That’s democracy.
Ok and I'm not voting for him again. That's democracy.
I said several times you're allowed to help Donald Trump win if you want to, millions of Republicans are doing it too.
That's a two way street. By refusing to compromise with leftists moderates are allowing Trump to win.
It isn't because the only question to be asked is whether a choice is helping Biden beat Trump, or not.
Biden is trying to be as electable as possible, to get himself elected over Donald Trump. If he doesn't go Leftist enough on your preferred policy, it's because he thinks being that far left will lose him votes. So "refusing to compromise with leftists" is the choice that helps beat Trump. And voting for Biden is the choice that helps beat Trump. One can be the consequence of the other, but that doesn't change the fact that not voting for Biden is helping Trump.
It isn’t because the only question to be asked is whether a choice is helping Biden beat Trump, or not.
That's your interpretation. You're free to have your own and I'm free to have mine. Buddy, the only reason you're continuing to engage is because you believe you can affect the outcome. You can't.
By refusing to compromise with leftists moderates are allowing Trump to win.
No, the party is allowing Trump to win, by not putting up candidates that people can vote for.
No, we are voting against democrats because they continue to supply weaponry, ammunition, and a fucking carrier strike group to protect Israel from its own decisions.
If they want to massacre thousands of innocent children, let them do it on their own and take whatever fucking backlash they get.
They have no problems doing any of this as long as we are protecting them, let the chickens come home to roost on them
There's a third alternative for those who won't vote for Biden, but don't support Republicans. Primary. Essentially, picking democratic candidates that aren't endorsed by AIPAC on the downballot. We do have people like AOC, and Sanders whom that are against Israel, and Hamas.
That's more reasonable than voting against Democrats.
As far as consequences goes, Israel has been facing the prospect of decreased international support, but that will take a decade at best for it to be significant. Gen Z and Millennials don't really have good feelings toward Israel after their actions within war, and Israelis know it. It's on Israel to change policy along with a trial toward settlers and people that supports Netanyahu, and if they want them back, that's the only way to do it, otherwise, I don't see Israel having the longevity to avoid that.
I went independent already.
The democrats are supporting too many conservative views for me.
The republicans are too far right.
The commies are too far left.
Although typing this out just now made non-binary people finally click in my head.
Questions.
Which democrats are conservative? Is Bernie/AOC a conservative? Are they a commie? There's a portion of the democratic party that aren't centrists.
Republicans are definitely too far-right.
Sanders is only a democrats because they forced him to be to run for president.
But right about there
He's a Independent that caucus with the Democratic Party. But, my point is that there's two wings of the Democratic Party. It's the Bernie wing of the Democratic Party that is to be supported mainly. That wing won't be a relevant party if it was a third party, the GOP needs to die before that can happen.
If the party is shoving us to the side and only paying lip service to us and carting us out when it is time to vote, then are we really part of the party at all?
The thing is even intraparty feuds are resolved via compromises to minority wing. So yes, AOC wing of the Democratic Party do have some level of influences toward the Democratic Party.
>There’s a third alternative for those who won’t vote for Biden, but don’t support Republicans. Primary.
nah. i'm just going to vote for someone i want to win in the general like cornel west or jill stein.
Primary election is not the same thing as the general election. And the downballot is what I'm talking about, which is why Cornel West or Jill Stein isn't even part of it. So, people who can't be willing to vote for Biden, can vote for people in the downballot.
can you read? i said what i said.
Can you explain how is Jill Stein or Cornell West relevant to the downballot choice?
You don't think that the alternative is worse? You don't think that Republicans will supply double the aid to Israel and half the aid to Ukraine?
It's a privileged position to be able to say "I want to wash my hands of the whole thing." People executing that privilege in 2016 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2004 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2000 got us to where we are today. How well do you think it's going to work out for you this year?
So I should bend the knee and just let you people ignore me and what I want and stand for?
I have compromised over and over and you people never, EVER, hold up your part of the deal.
I am DONE!
Run a candidate worth a damn or let the country get another bitch slap to the face like 2016.
Maybe everyone will wise up after that, until then enjoy your fucking president with a hardon for killing brown people
lol. "You people," as if there's less in common between you and me than there is between me and Democratic party leadership. What a joke.
Run a candidate worth a damn or let the country get another bitch slap to the face like 2016.
That's a weird way to say literal murder gangs and secret police. And that's not theoretical or fearmongering, Trump has actually said he would do that. There are MAGA groups drawing up plans right now.
Not to mention the article you're commenting on right this very moment, where a Republican is openly advocating for killing brown people. Yes, Biden's response to Gaza has been tepid at best. But the other option is currently saying, out loud and to the news, "turn Gaza into glass, baby! Let it burn!"
This isn't a situation where we come out of the other side embarrassed. This is life and death for millions, and the fact that you can petulantly fold your arms and say "no!" is choosing neutrality.
So I should bend the knee
No! You should fight for what you want to see in the world, which includes allowing for the reality that slowing down the speeding train is still helpful for the people on the tracks, even if the better option would be to get them off of the tracks. Then primary someone who won't leave the people tied to the tracks.
As long as we don't have ranked choice voting, this is the option we have: at each ballot box, we vote to do the least harm, and then we hold the people we voted for to account, with the threat that otherwise we'll primary them next time.
Yes it sucks. But every person in Gaza, every person in Ukraine, every woman and immigrant and homeless person and person without medical insurance and trans person and gay person and child in a classroom across this country--every single one of them, if they know the stakes, is terrified of the Republican regime that would make their lives living hells at best and eternal fascist rule at second best.
And they (and I) are terrified that there is no "next time" or "wise up" after a Trump win because they've banned any news that doesn't kiss the ring, or they've canceled elections, or they've forcibly disbanded any party that isn't the GOP.
You want me to believe that the principled decision, the moral decision, the ethical decision is to allow those millions of people to see their worst nightmare come true, just because 262 Democrats in Washington aren't listening to your voice enough?
If you've made your peace with that, fine. But don't try to tell me that allowing that carnage is more righteous.
Yet knowing all of that, you guys are still choosing to support Biden.
You do you homie, maybe eventually the left will actually move left if you keep voting for them no matter how right wing they go.
Yet knowing all of that, you guys are still choosing to support Biden.
Where have I said a single word of support for Biden? I'm in this solely to defeat Trump.
Hey wait a minute I thought we were all voting for Republicans because the Democrats didn't immediately get Israel to do all the things we wanted them to do.
Literally who is voting Republican over Gaza? And before you say it, no. Not engaging with a two party election in which both candidates support genocide is not the same as voting for the one you don't like.
Sarcasm.
No some of us just aren't showing up to vote for Biden. Personally I'll be voting for a 3rd party candidate or writing in. We made it clear we didn't support Biden as a choice in the 2020 primaries. Progressives and leftists provided multiple alternatives we would have generally all backed in the general even though we definitely had our favorites.
Moderates responded by claiming "We can push Biden to the left." Many progressive and leftist voters took this to mean we had a seat at the table so we showed up in the 2020 general election. After four years of Biden it's very clear we continue to have no seat at the table despite being desperately needed to win the 2024 general election. Moderates continue to bank on using the fear of Trump to coerce progressives and leftists to show up to vote while having zero influence at all. Then they have a melt down and call us entitled when we say we've had enough and we're walking away from the table we don't have a seat at.
Moderates can either compromise with leftists or progressives or lose to fascists. It's really that simple.
Well, guess what's gonna happen then. If you are in danger of starving, do you refuse a bruised apple or wait for pizza?
Frankly I'm tired of these made up questions. Do you want to compromise with progressives and leftists or lose to fascists? Stop bargaining, make a choice and be confident that the outcome is what you chose.
So your choice is to lose to fascists...? Because if people don't vote for Biden, Democrats will lose to fascists.
No made up analogy there. Straight up go to jail, don't pass go, end of democracy, Trump dictatorship. This honestly is not hyperbole this time around.
Sounds like y’all need our help but aren’t willing to listen to us.
I heard all this same shit last time.
I am done being the only one who has to compromise.
Fix your candidate if you want my votes
Sounds like you better try to work on moderates then.
So even though you don't think it's what you're doing, you're choosing neutrality. And "neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim."
I'd consider myself more a leftist than not, but I'm not blind. Events like this make it quite clear how much worse the other option is. Neither side actually cares, so I'm going with the side that does the least harm, even though I don't think it goes far enough.
You're free to call yourself whatever you want but all you're doing is repeating moderate talking points for them. Whatever your beliefs are, your actions support moderate politics. The same politics which have failed to address Trump.
I'm not beholden to any party or wing thereof. I see a news story like this, though, and I'll do whatever I can to keep that party out of office.
Have you tried telling moderates they need to wise up and start compromising with progressives and leftists?
Of course. Hasn't everyone? But the moderates hold all the power, both in Washington and in the media; which means that if they won't make a compromise with the left, they'll make a compromise with the right. And remember, there currently is no moderate right.
Which deal do you want to see?
Give me some examples.
Yes, moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with leftists and progressives. They're selfish pieces of shit.
Agreed. Doesn't mean that letting their selfishness kill people is the right option.
Come on, man. You're on Lemmy. You've seen every third post in /c/politics. You know the score.
Again as someone from a minority wing I'm not "letting" them do anything. If I'm not a part of a large enough wing to warrant compromise then I'm not a part of a large enough wing to have an impact. Moderates can't keep controlling the narrative that people like me are at fault while also being irrelevant. They need to pick one. Until they do, I'm going with I'm irrelevant.
Moderates criticisms of leftists and progressives score much much higher than the other way around. I'd like to see that change. If it changes here it will either mean everyday opinions have shifted or cause everyday opinions to shift.
People need to start telling moderates as the majority voting bloc when Democrat candidates lose it's their fault.
You're binarizing something that is definitely not binary; this is a far, far more complex system than that, and assuming it to be this simple is incredibly naive. Your actions may very well be enough to tip something over in one direction, but not in the other. In fact, that's most likely to be true; adding a few more individuals to a critically endangered population of animals probably won't cause them to suddenly bounce back, but removing them from that population is very likely to cause their extinction.
Me too. Very much so. But would you listen to someone who said you weren't worth making deals with? A quarter-century of progressives taking this tactic have only pushed Democrats further to the right and moved the Overton Window away from the world we'd like to see. Do you really think continuing on this course is likely to change the outcome?
Cool message. Are you cool with millions of people dying and democracy in the US ending entirely in order to send it?
The stakes are too high. Jack Posobiec, on stage at CPAC yesterday, said, "We’re here to overthrow democracy completely. We didn’t get all the way there on January 6th, but we will endeavor to get rid of it & replace it with this right here." The "this" he was talking about was his own clenched fist. And the people present, including Steve Bannon, cheered him loudly. Trump is speaking there tomorrow, and if you think he's going to rationally give a repudiation of what Posobiec said...well, that would explain your viewpoint, honestly.
I want you to see the privilege you're exercising in order to say this. I know you feel like you are being ignored, and maybe you are, but the fact that you're able to make this statement means that you're not in a cage on the Southern border, or hemmed in on the ground in Gaza, or pinned down by Russian fire in Ukraine. You have the privilege to be this petulant, and I want you to recognize that.
If you do, and you've decided that this is how you want to spend that privilege--rather than helping get progressive or leftist candidates on ballots, rather than holding existing politicians to account, rather than helping people in your community who need food and shelter, rather than being a resource for oppressed people fleeing red states--that's your decision. But again, don't make the mistake of calling us immoral for being willing to tear down the system from the inside rather than standing on the outside complaining that nobody inside will listen.
Then you will continue to lap at their heels.
Or, you can stand up and find your voice and fight with us against it
And how many people will the Republicans kill, disenfranchise, or otherwise dehumanize before somebody starts listening to my voice?
I certainly couldn't have that on my conscience.
Moderates are the majority voting bloc. They must take the lions share of the responsibility.
Cool, just tell that to all the Palestinians that Ogles wants to kill. I'm sure that'll make them feel better that it's not you in particular who bears the responsibility for their deaths.
You realize Palestinians are dying today as a result of bombs being given to Israel by Biden through an executive order right?
Yes. And I also realize that the other side wants to drive our military over there to do it ourselves. Both sides suck. One side sucks way more.
Then get on telling moderates they're selfish pieces of shit.
Let's maybe just do this in the one place, 'k?
But you will if you guys continue to say fuck you to is.
You guys are choosing to run that candidate with all the risk that takes.
Why is it ALWAYS on us to give in to you guys?
If your person is popular enough he will win, if not, we’ll that’s the horse that y’all bet on knowing how so many of us feel.
Again with the "you guys." I really don't know where you get the idea that I'm all-in on Democrats somehow.
Anyway, you don't have to "give in." We just have to recognize that the only party who has a ghost of a chance of (a) getting into office and (b) doing things we want is the one that put Biden on the slate.
I don't have any more control over the DNC than you do, so stop acting like this is any more than a tantrum. You don't need to convince me. You just need to find a way to deal with your anger that doesn't result in the deaths of millions.
Because you're spending your time and energy lecturing leftists and progressives. Unless you can somehow show me that you're spending more time lecturing moderates then your actions are full support for Democrat politicians regardless of what your actual beliefs are.
Bro, I'm not taking homework from you. I have no need to prove myself to you. You're going to either need to trust me on this, or just shut up about it, because I'm not going to provide you audio recordings of me talking to my current neighbors or people back in my hometown, or my private text conversations with people who I grew up with, or my Facebook comment discussions with people I barely know. I don't harangue people on Lemmy about leftism because most of the people on Lemmy are already predisposed to our side.
Don't mistake online life for the only part of real life.
You said
I explained and explained how you could debunk that idea. I never suggested you had to. But until you do your comments say you're "all-in on Democrats".
And yet you defend moderates at every turn. Buddy, you're a moderate. You're a full blown Democrat establishment supporter. If you really are on the side of leftists and progressives then fucking stop fighting with us.
I'm not defending anyone. I couldn't care less who wins; I just want the GOP to lose, and I know what has to happen for that outcome. I just want to prevent actual, literal carnage by showing you what your petulance is going to lead to.
Also,
I'm really not. I type quickly, and I'm here anyway. My time and energy goes into my family and my community, which is why I actually care about what happens in November in more than just the abstract.
Buddy. You are literally spending time arguing with us. I didn't say you didn't spend time with family or community. Just that you are here and putting time and effort arguing with us.
If you aren't spending a greater amount of time and energy lecturing moderates guess what? That's where we get the idea you're "all-in on Democrats". Because you spend more time and energy defending them than criticizing them.
Show me where I've defended a single democrat.
I'm not defending anyone. I'm trying to show you that your privileged stance has the potential to lead to some pretty dire outcomes.
Stand up in the primaries, we're in the general election now. This is the only strategy that works with FPTP.
The 6 months before the general election is the only period when you don't want to create division. That gives you 3 years and 6 months for critical discussion which is fairly reasonable.
We did. There were a wide range of leftist and progressive candidates to chose from. Moderates said "none of those we choose this old guy who's gonna block strikes, force federal workers back into the office and supply weapons to Israel."
The Trump Supreme court has intervened to shut down any meaningful progressive initiatives (see student loan forgiveness, for example).
I think Biden fumbled that himself. Along with the BBB, increasing the defense budget, the CHIPS act and the way he treated the UAW. On top of that his appointments Yellen and Powell are in an outright war with American Workers, he pushed to block the rail strike and he's supplying weapons to Israel.
That's plenty of opportunities I can think of where Biden could have done something different. I'm open to other ideas as well. But if you're just trying to tell me Biden couldn't do anything different than he has that's a terrible sales pitch for someone you want me to vote for in the 2024 general. I'll be there but I'm gonna be voting 3rd party or a write in.
you don't seem to think much of your own and no one is trying to convince you of anything. sounds like you want a president who intervenes beyond the scope of his power. which you'll have under Trump. people get the leaders they deserve
Biden had the power to not get involved with the rail strike. He had the power to veto the legislation which blocked the rail strike. He has the ability to stop sending weapons to Israel.
Indeed. That includes moderates who refused to compromise with leftists and progressives.
I don't think anyone was arguing you can push Biden to the left. I guess you had that Bernie commission but nothing was promised beyond that. What happened is more people voted for Biden so he won. That's democracy.
I'm not saying you have to vote for Biden, you're allowed to do whatever, but it's not some fairy tale that by not voting for Biden you're helping Trump. You are, you just don't care. You would rather Trump be president for the next 4 years because you think Moderate Democrats will learn some lesson that they didn't the last time the exact same thing happened in 2016.
What will really happen is moderates will claim the candidate catered to the left so much that it turned off moderates (or pick a group, didnt cater enough to suburban Hispanics or whatever), and the Left will say the candidate didn't cater to the left enough, and in 2028 that won't be resolved and the person who wins the most votes will win again entirely unrelated to the question. So you're not sending the message you think you're sending, you're just hurting the candidate whose interests are the closest to yours. Allowed, but not what I'd recommend as a political strategy.
But, thats what always happens anyways in every election, regardless if Trump is running or not.
I guarantee you, when they go back to do a postmortem post-election, and see a whole voting block not showing up, that'll definitely send a message.
They're actually already seeing it today, or do you not wonder why Biden keeps trying to pay off student loans every way he has available to him.
Its the party's responsibility to offer candidates that people can vote for, and not demand people to vote for the party so the other party does not win. Coercing a vote out of someone is not the American thing to do.
Right, my point is that you aren't "teaching moderate Democrats a lesson" by helping Trump. You're just helping Trump.
No post mortem has ever decided the candidate needed to be further from the center to gain more votes. I don't see why you think it would happen now. There are more people in the middle, and winning over a vote from Trump is worth twice as much as moving a non-voting Leftist to vote. Those are the tradeoffs of campaigning.
Magnificent. Biden is doing something you like, this is somehow evidence of why you shouldn't vote for him.
Biden does some left wing stuff too, yes. He's not trying to alienate left wing people, he is doing electorally popular things, and he has to get Republicans on board for any law he wants to pass. This forces moderation. If you are demanding Medicare For All or you won't vote for him, you just aren't living in reality.
To be clear, the party isn't saying this, I am. Biden is trying to be popular to the widest swath of people possible, to beat Trump. If you're saying you're going to vote against him to send a message nobody is going to listen to, I think you're making a mistake and helping the guy you hate, way more than you are doing any good.
The way to send an inter-party message is in the primaries. Get your person (or a person significantly closer to you ideologically) to be the candidate and make everyone else choose between them or the guy they hate. If Bernie was the candidate I'd be telling moderates to vote for him just like this.
I honestly disagree with you on many of your assertions, but I have already voted in the primary to someone else besides Biden, to do that signaling you mentioned.
And as far as the student loan thing goes, the Democrats know they're really in trouble with the younger voting block, and the quantity and the insistence of them trying to do something over and over again is the point I was trying to bring to the discussion, to show that not voting party lines send signals (which you disagree with). Its not just about that I disagree with something that I like for him to do as you have asserted. It's a signal that they recognize already the problem and they're trying to course correct on it. The signal was received.
To bottom line this, it's the party's responsibility to save America from Trump, and not the voters. The party has to put up people that the voters will want to vote for. If he's not fit for office today, there's a good chance during the next four years he will become unfit for office.
For the good of the country, Biden should step aside, and let someone healthier run for the party nomination, OR have third party medical personnel confirm his cognitive abilities right now, and how long they will last throughout his whole second term in office, and make that information available publicly, so voters can use it to help decide on who to vote for.
Ok and I'm not voting for him again. That's democracy.
I said several times you're allowed to help Donald Trump win if you want to, millions of Republicans are doing it too.
That's a two way street. By refusing to compromise with leftists moderates are allowing Trump to win.
It isn't because the only question to be asked is whether a choice is helping Biden beat Trump, or not.
Biden is trying to be as electable as possible, to get himself elected over Donald Trump. If he doesn't go Leftist enough on your preferred policy, it's because he thinks being that far left will lose him votes. So "refusing to compromise with leftists" is the choice that helps beat Trump. And voting for Biden is the choice that helps beat Trump. One can be the consequence of the other, but that doesn't change the fact that not voting for Biden is helping Trump.
That's your interpretation. You're free to have your own and I'm free to have mine. Buddy, the only reason you're continuing to engage is because you believe you can affect the outcome. You can't.
No, the party is allowing Trump to win, by not putting up candidates that people can vote for.
It's ultimately the party's responsibility.
Sure. I can accept that as a possibility as well.
No, we are voting against democrats because they continue to supply weaponry, ammunition, and a fucking carrier strike group to protect Israel from its own decisions.
If they want to massacre thousands of innocent children, let them do it on their own and take whatever fucking backlash they get.
They have no problems doing any of this as long as we are protecting them, let the chickens come home to roost on them
There's a third alternative for those who won't vote for Biden, but don't support Republicans. Primary. Essentially, picking democratic candidates that aren't endorsed by AIPAC on the downballot. We do have people like AOC, and Sanders whom that are against Israel, and Hamas.
That's more reasonable than voting against Democrats.
As far as consequences goes, Israel has been facing the prospect of decreased international support, but that will take a decade at best for it to be significant. Gen Z and Millennials don't really have good feelings toward Israel after their actions within war, and Israelis know it. It's on Israel to change policy along with a trial toward settlers and people that supports Netanyahu, and if they want them back, that's the only way to do it, otherwise, I don't see Israel having the longevity to avoid that.
I went independent already.
The democrats are supporting too many conservative views for me.
The republicans are too far right.
The commies are too far left.
Although typing this out just now made non-binary people finally click in my head.
Questions.
Which democrats are conservative? Is Bernie/AOC a conservative? Are they a commie? There's a portion of the democratic party that aren't centrists.
Republicans are definitely too far-right.
Sanders is only a democrats because they forced him to be to run for president.
But right about there
He's a Independent that caucus with the Democratic Party. But, my point is that there's two wings of the Democratic Party. It's the Bernie wing of the Democratic Party that is to be supported mainly. That wing won't be a relevant party if it was a third party, the GOP needs to die before that can happen.
If the party is shoving us to the side and only paying lip service to us and carting us out when it is time to vote, then are we really part of the party at all?
The thing is even intraparty feuds are resolved via compromises to minority wing. So yes, AOC wing of the Democratic Party do have some level of influences toward the Democratic Party.
>There’s a third alternative for those who won’t vote for Biden, but don’t support Republicans. Primary.
nah. i'm just going to vote for someone i want to win in the general like cornel west or jill stein.
Primary election is not the same thing as the general election. And the downballot is what I'm talking about, which is why Cornel West or Jill Stein isn't even part of it. So, people who can't be willing to vote for Biden, can vote for people in the downballot.
can you read? i said what i said.
Can you explain how is Jill Stein or Cornell West relevant to the downballot choice?
You don't think that the alternative is worse? You don't think that Republicans will supply double the aid to Israel and half the aid to Ukraine?
It's a privileged position to be able to say "I want to wash my hands of the whole thing." People executing that privilege in 2016 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2004 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2000 got us to where we are today. How well do you think it's going to work out for you this year?
So I should bend the knee and just let you people ignore me and what I want and stand for?
I have compromised over and over and you people never, EVER, hold up your part of the deal.
I am DONE!
Run a candidate worth a damn or let the country get another bitch slap to the face like 2016.
Maybe everyone will wise up after that, until then enjoy your fucking president with a hardon for killing brown people
lol. "You people," as if there's less in common between you and me than there is between me and Democratic party leadership. What a joke.
That's a weird way to say literal murder gangs and secret police. And that's not theoretical or fearmongering, Trump has actually said he would do that. There are MAGA groups drawing up plans right now.
Not to mention the article you're commenting on right this very moment, where a Republican is openly advocating for killing brown people. Yes, Biden's response to Gaza has been tepid at best. But the other option is currently saying, out loud and to the news, "turn Gaza into glass, baby! Let it burn!"
This isn't a situation where we come out of the other side embarrassed. This is life and death for millions, and the fact that you can petulantly fold your arms and say "no!" is choosing neutrality.
No! You should fight for what you want to see in the world, which includes allowing for the reality that slowing down the speeding train is still helpful for the people on the tracks, even if the better option would be to get them off of the tracks. Then primary someone who won't leave the people tied to the tracks.
As long as we don't have ranked choice voting, this is the option we have: at each ballot box, we vote to do the least harm, and then we hold the people we voted for to account, with the threat that otherwise we'll primary them next time.
Yes it sucks. But every person in Gaza, every person in Ukraine, every woman and immigrant and homeless person and person without medical insurance and trans person and gay person and child in a classroom across this country--every single one of them, if they know the stakes, is terrified of the Republican regime that would make their lives living hells at best and eternal fascist rule at second best.
And they (and I) are terrified that there is no "next time" or "wise up" after a Trump win because they've banned any news that doesn't kiss the ring, or they've canceled elections, or they've forcibly disbanded any party that isn't the GOP.
You want me to believe that the principled decision, the moral decision, the ethical decision is to allow those millions of people to see their worst nightmare come true, just because 262 Democrats in Washington aren't listening to your voice enough?
If you've made your peace with that, fine. But don't try to tell me that allowing that carnage is more righteous.
Yet knowing all of that, you guys are still choosing to support Biden.
You do you homie, maybe eventually the left will actually move left if you keep voting for them no matter how right wing they go.
Where have I said a single word of support for Biden? I'm in this solely to defeat Trump.