I see, so doing something about it is the responsibility of consumers, not the companies who do it.
Both. But one you can change right now. At your next meal just choose vegan.
Which means either be rich or live a life eating nothing but beans and rice.
Beans, rice, tofu, lentils, mushrooms, chickpeas, nuts, seeds, many options and they're all cheaper than flesh, and healthier for you and better for the environment.
Choose one of those, and use the extra money to donate towards something that will undermine those capitalist trash.
Extra money. Donate. Must be nice to be rich. By the way, people who aren't rich can often work two jobs. When do you think they have time to cook?
Veganism is a privilege that many people cannot have.
What's your point? Arguments for veganism only apply to those who can eat vegan. They obviously don't apply to those that can't. You concern re. food deserts is a very valid one but that isn't a criticism of veganism, it's benefits or its impact on the environment. Working to eliminate food deserts and improve nutritional options for everyone is a part of tackling climate change. For those Americans that do have access to some vegan options (about 80% of the population) going vegan or at least 'flexitarian' is cheaper, quicker, healthier and better for the environment.
In edition, your point about families having time, whilst valid, is again not a criticism of veganism, it's a criticism of a multitude of wider societal issues.
Great, except I'm not discussing that comment with you, I'm discussing your comments re. the costs and time requirements of veganism.
But OK, I'll bite. The comment you linked has already been addressed multiple times. Your numbers were incorrect and your comment re. mothers buying meat misses the point of the original article, which is extolling the environmental virtues of going vegan for those that can. Ideally everyone should go vegan. This is not the same as saying everyone can.
Okay, but again, I was responding to someone who said the world should go vegan and explaining why a lot of people in the U.S. can't do that.
I don't know why you're so against me explaining that.
Moving the goalpost much? First it is not the consumers fault, then it is too expensive and now you do not even have time to cook?
Yes. All of those things. And it's not about me, it's about the single mother working two jobs trying to keep their kids fed with something and living in a food desert where they can't even get things like tofu. It is not their fault because it is too expensive and they don't have time to cook and also they might not even be able to get it.
Until you fix those problems, it is not the fault of consumers.
It is about you though. I was talking to you.
Not some hypothetical person who you can hide behind.
Okay, but I never said what my diet is. If you're curious, I don't have one.
Eating beans, rice, lentils, peas, etc. is way cheaper than meat. A 4 lbs bag of chickpeas is $6 and provides 6,500 calories of mostly dietary fiber and protein.
Cooking is something you have to do, just like laundry and washing yourself. I’m not sure if this is a western thing or what, but for most people in the world, the less money you have, the more you cook. Eating prepared foods and meat is expensive.
You can complain all you want about how poor you are that you can’t eat beans and lentils, but the entire world outside of US, Canada, and Western Europe is proof of the contrary.
It takes 20 minutes to cook lentils and rice. 30 to cook beans if you have a pressure cooker. These foods are dirt cheap, shelf stable, and sold everywhere. My local gas station sells Goya beans.
I’m sorry about your situation, but cooking and feeding yourself is just part of living whether vegan or not. This widespread idea in the US that being poor means you should be eating expensive unhealthy prepared meals is strange. It will only make your situation worse.
This isn't about my situation. Did you even read those links?
Yes, and I addressed them. And frankly, I’m getting a little tired of people in the wealthiest countries in the world complaining that they don’t have time to cook beans, so instead they’re going to buy a beef cheeseburger cooked and assembled for them for $2.
I have lived in bad neighborhoods. I’ve worked shit jobs. I’ve bought bags of Goya green lentils from a gas station.
If you don’t want to, you don’t have to, but stop with this “poor people can’t afford to eat anything but McDonald’s and frozen dinners” thing.
Ah, right, have you and your kids live off beans and rice you can get at a gas station rather than have anything pleasurable. As usual, blame the poor for not living like animals.
Is there something wrong with rice and beans? I eat both of those daily. If the only thing that gives you pleasure is a fat and salt filled cheeseburger, that’s a separate issue.
And anyway, this argument went from “it’s too expensive” to “it takes too much time” to “it’s not good”. We can just agree to disagree. No one is forcing you to eat something you don’t want.
That's great for you if you want to live on nothing but rice and beans. I hope that's not the only thing you feed your kids if you have any. Because they would be forced to eat something they might not want.
And from the very beginning I suggested that saying poor people should just eat rice and beans all the time is just saying they deserve to suffer a lack of a varied diet because they can't afford one, can't find the food and don't have time to cook. And since they don't, climate change is their fault.
Blaming poor people for having a diet consisting of more than two things or else they're being unethical or whatever is just a cruel outlook.
I think it's important to make an honest assessment of what is, and what isn't, under control of consumers. Reducing meat consumption is something that consumers actually can control, unlike say the massive environmental destruction caused by military.
Corporations and other entities doing bad stuff does not absolve us of our own responsibility.
Yeah, apart from transportation it is really the easiest way to have a personal impact on carbon dioxide emissions. If you rent, you can't exchange your heating system, if you use electricity you have no impact on where it comes from and so on.
Capitalism means companies aren't gonna do shit, but you've got a choice to not participate in a flawed system.
I'm not one to tell people what to do, but pretending that someone else doing a bad thing justifies another bad thing...
Go ahead and refuse to participate. There's nothing wrong with that. Just don't expect it to have a significant climate impact.
"I alone can't change anything" is a hastily spoken excuse to shift responsibility onto others. But you are responsible for your life and your actions.
Nothing I personally do will have an effect on climate change. If you want to argue for people to not eat meat, fine. But blaming them for the climate worsening because they eat meat is placing the blame on the wrong party and is not going to convince people. There are other and better arguments.
I can blame more than one party, no problem! Politics must change, the economy must change, and society as well. Since you and me are part of the population, let's please change too! Politics will follow suit if we are serious.
Politics will follow suit if we are serious.
Like how abortion is legal in the U.S. because the majority is in favor of it, right?
Throwing one piece of trash out the window also won't have a significant impact.
When it comes to climate change, throwing things away is not a major issue, so that's not really a good comparison.
I see, so doing something about it is the responsibility of consumers, not the companies who do it.
Both. But one you can change right now. At your next meal just choose vegan.
Which means either be rich or live a life eating nothing but beans and rice.
Beans, rice, tofu, lentils, mushrooms, chickpeas, nuts, seeds, many options and they're all cheaper than flesh, and healthier for you and better for the environment.
Choose one of those, and use the extra money to donate towards something that will undermine those capitalist trash.
Extra money. Donate. Must be nice to be rich. By the way, people who aren't rich can often work two jobs. When do you think they have time to cook?
I don't know where you live, but in the UK at least going vegan is cheaper than eating meat: https://www.kantar.com/uki/inspiration/consumer/how-popular-is-veganism-in-the-uk so if saving money is your (understandable) concern then swapping to 'beans and rice' as you put it is worth it.
Same for the USA as well: https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/eating-vegan-diet-reduces-grocery-bill-16-savings-more-500-year-finds-new.
In fact it's almost a global solution: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
They're also quicker to prepare as well: https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2020/12/18/Vegan-meals-cheaper-and-quicker-than-meat-or-fish
It might be cheaper if you don't live in a food desert and have time to cook.
Neither of these are reasonable for many Americans.
https://theconversation.com/time-to-cook-is-a-luxury-many-families-dont-have-117158
https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts
Veganism is a privilege that many people cannot have.
What's your point? Arguments for veganism only apply to those who can eat vegan. They obviously don't apply to those that can't. You concern re. food deserts is a very valid one but that isn't a criticism of veganism, it's benefits or its impact on the environment. Working to eliminate food deserts and improve nutritional options for everyone is a part of tackling climate change. For those Americans that do have access to some vegan options (about 80% of the population) going vegan or at least 'flexitarian' is cheaper, quicker, healthier and better for the environment.
In edition, your point about families having time, whilst valid, is again not a criticism of veganism, it's a criticism of a multitude of wider societal issues.
Also, please bear in mind that the US is not the be-all-and-end-all when it comes to familial trends. In the UK for example, people are actually cooking at home more: https://brandclock.co.uk/scratch-cooking-in-the-uk-increasing/
Even in the US approx 64% of the population home cook: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/survey-reveals-81-of-consumers-now-cook-more-than-half-of-their-meals-at-home-302007657.html
Didn't this start with someone saying everyone should go vegan?
This particular thread started with your comment here: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/10351315
I'm pretty sure it started with my comment here- https://sh.itjust.works/comment/10349694
Great, except I'm not discussing that comment with you, I'm discussing your comments re. the costs and time requirements of veganism.
But OK, I'll bite. The comment you linked has already been addressed multiple times. Your numbers were incorrect and your comment re. mothers buying meat misses the point of the original article, which is extolling the environmental virtues of going vegan for those that can. Ideally everyone should go vegan. This is not the same as saying everyone can.
Okay, but again, I was responding to someone who said the world should go vegan and explaining why a lot of people in the U.S. can't do that.
I don't know why you're so against me explaining that.
Moving the goalpost much? First it is not the consumers fault, then it is too expensive and now you do not even have time to cook?
Yes. All of those things. And it's not about me, it's about the single mother working two jobs trying to keep their kids fed with something and living in a food desert where they can't even get things like tofu. It is not their fault because it is too expensive and they don't have time to cook and also they might not even be able to get it.
https://theconversation.com/time-to-cook-is-a-luxury-many-families-dont-have-117158
https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts
Until you fix those problems, it is not the fault of consumers.
It is about you though. I was talking to you.
Not some hypothetical person who you can hide behind.
Okay, but I never said what my diet is. If you're curious, I don't have one.
Eating beans, rice, lentils, peas, etc. is way cheaper than meat. A 4 lbs bag of chickpeas is $6 and provides 6,500 calories of mostly dietary fiber and protein.
Cooking is something you have to do, just like laundry and washing yourself. I’m not sure if this is a western thing or what, but for most people in the world, the less money you have, the more you cook. Eating prepared foods and meat is expensive.
https://theconversation.com/time-to-cook-is-a-luxury-many-families-dont-have-117158
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
You can complain all you want about how poor you are that you can’t eat beans and lentils, but the entire world outside of US, Canada, and Western Europe is proof of the contrary.
It takes 20 minutes to cook lentils and rice. 30 to cook beans if you have a pressure cooker. These foods are dirt cheap, shelf stable, and sold everywhere. My local gas station sells Goya beans.
I’m sorry about your situation, but cooking and feeding yourself is just part of living whether vegan or not. This widespread idea in the US that being poor means you should be eating expensive unhealthy prepared meals is strange. It will only make your situation worse.
This isn't about my situation. Did you even read those links?
Yes, and I addressed them. And frankly, I’m getting a little tired of people in the wealthiest countries in the world complaining that they don’t have time to cook beans, so instead they’re going to buy a beef cheeseburger cooked and assembled for them for $2.
I have lived in bad neighborhoods. I’ve worked shit jobs. I’ve bought bags of Goya green lentils from a gas station.
If you don’t want to, you don’t have to, but stop with this “poor people can’t afford to eat anything but McDonald’s and frozen dinners” thing.
Ah, right, have you and your kids live off beans and rice you can get at a gas station rather than have anything pleasurable. As usual, blame the poor for not living like animals.
Is there something wrong with rice and beans? I eat both of those daily. If the only thing that gives you pleasure is a fat and salt filled cheeseburger, that’s a separate issue.
And anyway, this argument went from “it’s too expensive” to “it takes too much time” to “it’s not good”. We can just agree to disagree. No one is forcing you to eat something you don’t want.
That's great for you if you want to live on nothing but rice and beans. I hope that's not the only thing you feed your kids if you have any. Because they would be forced to eat something they might not want.
And from the very beginning I suggested that saying poor people should just eat rice and beans all the time is just saying they deserve to suffer a lack of a varied diet because they can't afford one, can't find the food and don't have time to cook. And since they don't, climate change is their fault.
Blaming poor people for having a diet consisting of more than two things or else they're being unethical or whatever is just a cruel outlook.
I think it's important to make an honest assessment of what is, and what isn't, under control of consumers. Reducing meat consumption is something that consumers actually can control, unlike say the massive environmental destruction caused by military.
Corporations and other entities doing bad stuff does not absolve us of our own responsibility.
Yeah, apart from transportation it is really the easiest way to have a personal impact on carbon dioxide emissions. If you rent, you can't exchange your heating system, if you use electricity you have no impact on where it comes from and so on.
Capitalism means companies aren't gonna do shit, but you've got a choice to not participate in a flawed system.
I'm not one to tell people what to do, but pretending that someone else doing a bad thing justifies another bad thing...
Go ahead and refuse to participate. There's nothing wrong with that. Just don't expect it to have a significant climate impact.
"I alone can't change anything" is a hastily spoken excuse to shift responsibility onto others. But you are responsible for your life and your actions.
Nothing I personally do will have an effect on climate change. If you want to argue for people to not eat meat, fine. But blaming them for the climate worsening because they eat meat is placing the blame on the wrong party and is not going to convince people. There are other and better arguments.
I can blame more than one party, no problem! Politics must change, the economy must change, and society as well. Since you and me are part of the population, let's please change too! Politics will follow suit if we are serious.
Like how abortion is legal in the U.S. because the majority is in favor of it, right?
Throwing one piece of trash out the window also won't have a significant impact.
When it comes to climate change, throwing things away is not a major issue, so that's not really a good comparison.
por que no los dos