Those of us who grew up without it literally can’t imagine scenarios like this, though I’ve heard disturbing things from people who seem otherwise sane that make me understand what drives some to do these things. When you’ve internalised fables of good vs evil and that’s how you define reality, it’s a small step to think you have to commit atrocities to save the innocent. You don’t have to have a very divergent mentality to convince yourself of this.
We will all be better off when the vast majority of people give up these fables and begin to live in the real world.
friend, just reading the headline - this isn't organized religion at work, this is psychosis. she could have said the Care Bears told her to do it - same thing.
Psychosis PLUS organised religion. That’s my point, friend. Psychosis alone is a tragedy we should work to address as a society. But many of these stories would not end in senseless violence if there weren’t an underlying system of fantastical belief that bolstered people’s delusions and convinced them their delusions were divinely inspired.
if you have been close to or worked with psychotic people, you might recognize they don't necessarily need religion to come to fantastical conclusions and potentially act on them. i mean, maybe the radio told her. or the coffee pot. or the person who lives in the walls. or the cat.
fwiw, i'm not a massive defender of religion (nor especially a hater). i just think it's a mistake to blame religion for what is sometimes organic disease of the brain (among various possible causes).
This bullshit has convinced non-psychotic people to commit atrocities. It’s not a leap to think it convinces actually psychotic people their delusions are true. Especially when they say so themselves.
No, but if you have a person without glaring mental health issues, adding religion can put them in a state of mind very similar to madness.
Ehh I dunno... I'm as atheist as anyone with an IQ above 60, but I think religion is just a convenient scapegoat for mental illness here. I'm pretty sure someone who shoots strangers on the highway would have done it in a world without religion too, and they would say it's a different mystical force that made them do it. I don't think Christianity actually moved this person to do this.
Religion isn’t a scapegoat, and it has nothing to do with IQ. Very smart people are roped into it, and that’s what I mean by it being a social cancer.
Very smart people are raised with stories that they take as reality – that supplant their ability to judge reality for what it is – and it at best colours how they interpret everything for the rest of their lives, and at worst amplifies and gives focus to mental conditions they already have.
Religion is a warped lens through which people are forced to see reality from such a young age, they are incapable of seeing actual reality, and in some cases it just amplifies the otherwise mild mental illness they’d likely have had already.
Without it, some people would already have been disturbed, but with it those people are given a purpose for their delusions.
But in this case this lady is obviously mentally ill why are you ignoring that?
I’m not ignoring that.
My point is that religion is uniquely capable of taking the delusions of the mentally ill and nurturing them into violence.
Even for the mentally stable, it often leads to fantasy. But when mental illness and religion coincide, people who would otherwise be relatively benign in their delusions very easily become convinced their delusions are divine and their violent instincts are justified by scripture. It happens so often, we need to begin acknowledging it.
i think religion is one of many things which can weaponise mental illness. i also think, in a world without religion, some people would still hear voices and feel compelled to do terrible or dangerous things as a result.
Of course there would still be people like that. What I’m saying is there are exponentially more people like that when they’ve been raised from birth to believe in nonsense that warps their sense of right and wrong.
Take the story of Chad and Lori Daybell. She was a normal, successful woman who wasn’t a psychopath. She fell in with a pastor who convinced her of extreme religious ideals, after which they murdered their own children in a misguided belief they’d be safer in heaven than on earth.
I can list examples like that until the cows come home. Normal people who have become convinced to commit atrocities after being drawn into religion to extremes. It’s a psychological virus that can infect anyone. Most large-scale wars have a religious basis. All the biggest genocides have been committed in the name of religion. The best and fastest way to control people and warp their reality is to make them believe in a god.
We’re better than this.
Take the story of Chad and Lori Daybell. She was a normal, successful woman who wasn’t a psychopath. She fell in with a pastor who convinced her of extreme religious ideals, after which they murdered their own children in a misguided belief they’d be safer in heaven than on earth.
Your re-telling of Chad and Lori Daybell sounds too tidy to be true. It's like the first fifteen minutes of a horror movie with a completely happy, care-free life and then she bumps into a pastor and that chance encounter did her in.
Like sure, she poison pilled herself on religion partially but the whole "they were a normal couple" dream-scape section of the 48 hours special you're narrating here is the type of thing that constantly has me talking at the TV when those nuance-bereft junk piles are playing at my house.
She was obviously fucked up before she met the guy, just like a lot of cult followers are fucked up before they seek the guidance of their "guy".
Some people are fucked up from birth, some become fucked up later, and some are varying degrees of fucked up...but people are messy and it's not like they all used to be a happy go-lucky adventurer like you until they took one religion to the knee.
I think people get the relationship inverted. Many people become religious to fill whatever gap they had in the first place. Many people become cult-leaders because they were already sick in the head.
I abbreviated their story to keep my comment short, and linked the full thing for people who want to learn more.
In truth, the reason she was so susceptible to his offshoot of their religion was because she’d been raised believing in the mainstream religion, which he warped a bit in order to gain followers to his cult. She was primed for it because she couldn’t imagine a reality outside of the belief system in which she was raised, and his cult was only slightly outside that and built upon it.
Look up the story yourself, if you like. That’s why I linked it. My quick summary wasn’t ‘too tidy to be true’, and I can give you links to many, many more stories exactly like that one. Loads of normal people have committed atrocities – often against their own children – because their Christian faith told them to. A great many of them weren’t mentally ill until they became religious. Many committed those atrocities because they became convinced heaven was a better place for their children, that demons were real and trying to corrupt their kids, etc. Google it yourself; I’m not trying to filter knowledge here. These were normal people until they became religious.
Like I said, we should be talking about the damage these fables are doing. We should be talking about the damage done by indoctrinating children so they can’t discern reality from fantasy and right from wrong. We should be questioning our leaders when they say morality only exists in their stories, when the opposite is true. This shot is causing us irreparable damage as a society.
Look up the story yourself, if you like.
I'm thoroughly aware of the story which is why I find your summary of it lacking.
I don't like religion at all, but it's entirely clear to me that people's emotional and social needs created religion, and then our love of hierarchical structures created organized religion.
You could wipe religion off the Earth tomorrow and it'd be back by next Tuesday as long as you didn't wipe out all the people on the planet with it.
You're firing in a scatter shot manner at a general human sociological phenomenon and are pretty off target in this case especially, where it's pretty obvious the person had a mental illness.
You’re right, and I don’t disagree with you at all. Yes, we’ve had an emotional need for stories – more for connection with one another than for individual understanding, which cultural stories provide.
I’m saying there’s a difference between cultural stories and organised religion. The former is benign and can translate our questions into a semblance of meaning, and the latter which becomes dictatorial dogma that amplifies the worst of us, turning our basest instincts into abhorrent action.
I don’t think we disagree that much, you and I. I used to think organised religion wasn’t something I could get behind, but I thought to each their own.
The more I learned about it and the more I saw the bad influence it did to people I loved, the more I realised it’s nothing but a terrible influence in the world, holding us back as a people, and causing needless suffering and death.
I don’t think we disagree that much, you and I.
Yeah, I don't think we're very far apart in thought either, there's just some specifics in this case that make organized religion especially not really the culprit in these cases and we disagree on the specifics.
I too hate religion and organized religion probably even more so, and I don't think "to each his own" as much as I'm simply resigned to the fact that it's a part of the human experience, and will probably be around as long as we are.
i also think, in a world without religion, some people would still hear voices and feel compelled to do terrible or dangerous things as a result.
Religion is just a creation of man. I would argue that we have the relationship inverted and that we have religion partially because people heard voices and felt compelled to do terrible or dangerous things as a result.
i don't necessarily disagree with you; neither would Julian Jaynes. i'm just not going to blame organized religion for something (hearing compelling voices) that would exist with or without it.
Oh I think we're in complete agreement on that point.
Like yeah organized religion sucks it too (and how!), but I don't think it did this one...sorry fellas.
I think religion is just a convenient scapegoat for mental illness here.
It acts more as a place for mental illness to be hidden, camoflauged, or accepted as devotion or prophecy.
When someone's delusions overlap with what a church accepts as their ancient prophets' experience, that illness doesn't get proper treatment.
Yep it muddies the waters that distinguish what is rational from irrational. Like a dark damp festering basement, it gives mold a place to fester and grow.
Welcome to a place where you don't need logic; you just need this magical thing called "faith." Such mainstream religions were just the most successful cults.
Welcome to a place where you don’t need logic; you just need this magical thing called “faith.” Such mainstream religions were just the most successful cults.
People generally aren't all or even mostly rational or logical. It's difficult even for people with deep science or technical backgrounds to think in a structured way for long periods of time.
Even if you got most people off of organized religion they'd be on some other bullshit.
Evidence for that is actually all around us too. Organized religion is seeing more and more people walk away from it, but people remain just as full of shit as they were in church.
To your last point I don't know if I see that. Most of the religious nutjobs - organized or free of association - seem predominantly concentrated among right-wing circles. See the rising Christian nationalists for instance. Those who are walking away from religious faith tend to be more on the left side of the spectrum and ironically far more adherent to the teachings of Jesus in his best of image.
It's not one side or another of the political spectrum that's full of shit, it's people in general.
I have easily encountered just as many anti vax crackpots for instance coming from the left as from the right.
That is complete and total bullshit and any reputable statistics survey can prove it.
Let's not bOtH sIdeS this with absurd anecdotes.
Lol yeah you're right it's only right wingers that have irrational beliefs. 👍
Yep, now you're getting it. The vast majority are definitely on the right.
Nearly all conspiracy theories are peddled by right-wing mouthpieces; e.g., Alex Jones and adopted by their right-wing audience.
Right-wingers, statistically on average, are less educated and more susceptible to misinformation.
In the case of anti-vaxx, especially post-Covid, the vast majority are right-wing.
These both sides enlightened centrist false equivalence fallacies are cute and easy for the brain to process, but they aren't grounded in reality.
Dude the right wing doesn't have a monopoly on bullshit, but you can go on believing that (bullshit) if you like and continue to be a living counterexample to your own bad argument.
They account for the vast majority and surveys prove it. You've got nothing and are living in this strange delusional state of cognitive dissonance absent of any substantive evidence whatsoever.
Lol your whole post above is a bunch of gobbledygook that you've mistaken for a rational argument because you spend too much of your time posting on dumb online forums.
Agreed. I was raised Catholic but I rebelled every step of the way and GTFO as soon as I could. Yeah angels will get you stuff like this.
Organised religion is a cancer of the mind.
Those of us who grew up without it literally can’t imagine scenarios like this, though I’ve heard disturbing things from people who seem otherwise sane that make me understand what drives some to do these things. When you’ve internalised fables of good vs evil and that’s how you define reality, it’s a small step to think you have to commit atrocities to save the innocent. You don’t have to have a very divergent mentality to convince yourself of this.
We will all be better off when the vast majority of people give up these fables and begin to live in the real world.
friend, just reading the headline - this isn't organized religion at work, this is psychosis. she could have said the Care Bears told her to do it - same thing.
Psychosis PLUS organised religion. That’s my point, friend. Psychosis alone is a tragedy we should work to address as a society. But many of these stories would not end in senseless violence if there weren’t an underlying system of fantastical belief that bolstered people’s delusions and convinced them their delusions were divinely inspired.
if you have been close to or worked with psychotic people, you might recognize they don't necessarily need religion to come to fantastical conclusions and potentially act on them. i mean, maybe the radio told her. or the coffee pot. or the person who lives in the walls. or the cat.
fwiw, i'm not a massive defender of religion (nor especially a hater). i just think it's a mistake to blame religion for what is sometimes organic disease of the brain (among various possible causes).
This bullshit has convinced non-psychotic people to commit atrocities. It’s not a leap to think it convinces actually psychotic people their delusions are true. Especially when they say so themselves.
No, but if you have a person without glaring mental health issues, adding religion can put them in a state of mind very similar to madness.
Ehh I dunno... I'm as atheist as anyone with an IQ above 60, but I think religion is just a convenient scapegoat for mental illness here. I'm pretty sure someone who shoots strangers on the highway would have done it in a world without religion too, and they would say it's a different mystical force that made them do it. I don't think Christianity actually moved this person to do this.
Religion isn’t a scapegoat, and it has nothing to do with IQ. Very smart people are roped into it, and that’s what I mean by it being a social cancer.
Very smart people are raised with stories that they take as reality – that supplant their ability to judge reality for what it is – and it at best colours how they interpret everything for the rest of their lives, and at worst amplifies and gives focus to mental conditions they already have.
Religion is a warped lens through which people are forced to see reality from such a young age, they are incapable of seeing actual reality, and in some cases it just amplifies the otherwise mild mental illness they’d likely have had already.
Without it, some people would already have been disturbed, but with it those people are given a purpose for their delusions.
But in this case this lady is obviously mentally ill why are you ignoring that?
I’m not ignoring that.
My point is that religion is uniquely capable of taking the delusions of the mentally ill and nurturing them into violence.
Even for the mentally stable, it often leads to fantasy. But when mental illness and religion coincide, people who would otherwise be relatively benign in their delusions very easily become convinced their delusions are divine and their violent instincts are justified by scripture. It happens so often, we need to begin acknowledging it.
i think religion is one of many things which can weaponise mental illness. i also think, in a world without religion, some people would still hear voices and feel compelled to do terrible or dangerous things as a result.
Of course there would still be people like that. What I’m saying is there are exponentially more people like that when they’ve been raised from birth to believe in nonsense that warps their sense of right and wrong.
Take the story of Chad and Lori Daybell. She was a normal, successful woman who wasn’t a psychopath. She fell in with a pastor who convinced her of extreme religious ideals, after which they murdered their own children in a misguided belief they’d be safer in heaven than on earth.
I can list examples like that until the cows come home. Normal people who have become convinced to commit atrocities after being drawn into religion to extremes. It’s a psychological virus that can infect anyone. Most large-scale wars have a religious basis. All the biggest genocides have been committed in the name of religion. The best and fastest way to control people and warp their reality is to make them believe in a god.
We’re better than this.
Your re-telling of Chad and Lori Daybell sounds too tidy to be true. It's like the first fifteen minutes of a horror movie with a completely happy, care-free life and then she bumps into a pastor and that chance encounter did her in.
Like sure, she poison pilled herself on religion partially but the whole "they were a normal couple" dream-scape section of the 48 hours special you're narrating here is the type of thing that constantly has me talking at the TV when those nuance-bereft junk piles are playing at my house.
She was obviously fucked up before she met the guy, just like a lot of cult followers are fucked up before they seek the guidance of their "guy".
Some people are fucked up from birth, some become fucked up later, and some are varying degrees of fucked up...but people are messy and it's not like they all used to be a happy go-lucky adventurer like you until they took one religion to the knee.
I think people get the relationship inverted. Many people become religious to fill whatever gap they had in the first place. Many people become cult-leaders because they were already sick in the head.
I abbreviated their story to keep my comment short, and linked the full thing for people who want to learn more.
In truth, the reason she was so susceptible to his offshoot of their religion was because she’d been raised believing in the mainstream religion, which he warped a bit in order to gain followers to his cult. She was primed for it because she couldn’t imagine a reality outside of the belief system in which she was raised, and his cult was only slightly outside that and built upon it.
Look up the story yourself, if you like. That’s why I linked it. My quick summary wasn’t ‘too tidy to be true’, and I can give you links to many, many more stories exactly like that one. Loads of normal people have committed atrocities – often against their own children – because their Christian faith told them to. A great many of them weren’t mentally ill until they became religious. Many committed those atrocities because they became convinced heaven was a better place for their children, that demons were real and trying to corrupt their kids, etc. Google it yourself; I’m not trying to filter knowledge here. These were normal people until they became religious.
Like I said, we should be talking about the damage these fables are doing. We should be talking about the damage done by indoctrinating children so they can’t discern reality from fantasy and right from wrong. We should be questioning our leaders when they say morality only exists in their stories, when the opposite is true. This shot is causing us irreparable damage as a society.
I'm thoroughly aware of the story which is why I find your summary of it lacking.
I don't like religion at all, but it's entirely clear to me that people's emotional and social needs created religion, and then our love of hierarchical structures created organized religion.
You could wipe religion off the Earth tomorrow and it'd be back by next Tuesday as long as you didn't wipe out all the people on the planet with it.
You're firing in a scatter shot manner at a general human sociological phenomenon and are pretty off target in this case especially, where it's pretty obvious the person had a mental illness.
You’re right, and I don’t disagree with you at all. Yes, we’ve had an emotional need for stories – more for connection with one another than for individual understanding, which cultural stories provide.
I’m saying there’s a difference between cultural stories and organised religion. The former is benign and can translate our questions into a semblance of meaning, and the latter which becomes dictatorial dogma that amplifies the worst of us, turning our basest instincts into abhorrent action.
I don’t think we disagree that much, you and I. I used to think organised religion wasn’t something I could get behind, but I thought to each their own.
The more I learned about it and the more I saw the bad influence it did to people I loved, the more I realised it’s nothing but a terrible influence in the world, holding us back as a people, and causing needless suffering and death.
Yeah, I don't think we're very far apart in thought either, there's just some specifics in this case that make organized religion especially not really the culprit in these cases and we disagree on the specifics.
I too hate religion and organized religion probably even more so, and I don't think "to each his own" as much as I'm simply resigned to the fact that it's a part of the human experience, and will probably be around as long as we are.
Religion is just a creation of man. I would argue that we have the relationship inverted and that we have religion partially because people heard voices and felt compelled to do terrible or dangerous things as a result.
i don't necessarily disagree with you; neither would Julian Jaynes. i'm just not going to blame organized religion for something (hearing compelling voices) that would exist with or without it.
Oh I think we're in complete agreement on that point.
Like yeah organized religion sucks it too (and how!), but I don't think it did this one...sorry fellas.
It acts more as a place for mental illness to be hidden, camoflauged, or accepted as devotion or prophecy.
When someone's delusions overlap with what a church accepts as their ancient prophets' experience, that illness doesn't get proper treatment.
Yep it muddies the waters that distinguish what is rational from irrational. Like a dark damp festering basement, it gives mold a place to fester and grow.
Welcome to a place where you don't need logic; you just need this magical thing called "faith." Such mainstream religions were just the most successful cults.
People generally aren't all or even mostly rational or logical. It's difficult even for people with deep science or technical backgrounds to think in a structured way for long periods of time.
Even if you got most people off of organized religion they'd be on some other bullshit.
Evidence for that is actually all around us too. Organized religion is seeing more and more people walk away from it, but people remain just as full of shit as they were in church.
To your last point I don't know if I see that. Most of the religious nutjobs - organized or free of association - seem predominantly concentrated among right-wing circles. See the rising Christian nationalists for instance. Those who are walking away from religious faith tend to be more on the left side of the spectrum and ironically far more adherent to the teachings of Jesus in his best of image.
It's not one side or another of the political spectrum that's full of shit, it's people in general.
I have easily encountered just as many anti vax crackpots for instance coming from the left as from the right.
That is complete and total bullshit and any reputable statistics survey can prove it.
Let's not bOtH sIdeS this with absurd anecdotes.
Lol yeah you're right it's only right wingers that have irrational beliefs. 👍
Yep, now you're getting it. The vast majority are definitely on the right.
Nearly all conspiracy theories are peddled by right-wing mouthpieces; e.g., Alex Jones and adopted by their right-wing audience.
Right-wingers, statistically on average, are less educated and more susceptible to misinformation.
In the case of anti-vaxx, especially post-Covid, the vast majority are right-wing.
These both sides enlightened centrist false equivalence fallacies are cute and easy for the brain to process, but they aren't grounded in reality.
Dude the right wing doesn't have a monopoly on bullshit, but you can go on believing that (bullshit) if you like and continue to be a living counterexample to your own bad argument.
They account for the vast majority and surveys prove it. You've got nothing and are living in this strange delusional state of cognitive dissonance absent of any substantive evidence whatsoever.
Lol your whole post above is a bunch of gobbledygook that you've mistaken for a rational argument because you spend too much of your time posting on dumb online forums.
Agreed. I was raised Catholic but I rebelled every step of the way and GTFO as soon as I could. Yeah angels will get you stuff like this.