I have heard, from leftist, that Russian leadership has a higher tolerance for casualties on their side because THEY see the forced conscripts from easter Europe as disposalable. I have not seen/heard a NATO leader suggesting that they are.
If you're saying authoritarianism can be explained by non-whiteness....
But also saying that anyone opposing NATO become ipso facto non-white because it's "an ever-shifting construct"...
Then the "construct" has no explanatory power.
Why not just say 'authoritarianism' is opposition to the NATO bloc?
You're saying "authoritarianism = non-whiteness = opposition to the NATO bloc"
Why not skip the middle step?
If you’re saying authoritarianism can be explained by non-whiteness…
I’m not saying that. I’m saying that “whiteness” as a construct is a tool of capitalism/imperialism/colonialism. And that the Global North similarly tends to attribute “authoritarianism” to whichever states are acting insufficiently subservient to their imperialist interests at any given moment. And I’m saying that these two constructs have a tendency to be aligned with each other, because they’re both tools of capitalism/imperialism/colonialism.
But also saying that anyone opposing NATO become ipso facto non-white because it’s “an ever-shifting construct”…
Whiteness is as old as European colonialism, and has been baked into capitalism—which began in Europe—from the start. Whiteness has been twisted into all sorts of nonsensical logic pretzels. See for example honorary Aryanshonorary whites. It has no explanatory power because it is simply a tool of power. Even the Irish, Italian, and other Catholic European immigrants have suffered it within our own country. As Josep Borrell has more-or-less said, the imperial core is the “garden”, and the rest of the world is the “jungle.” Imperialism uses race—which again is made-up bullshit—as a tool to justify their imperialism.
You’re saying “authoritarianism = non-whiteness = opposition to the NATO bloc”
I’m not saying that, but the NATO bloc often seems to imply it.
And I’m saying that these two constructs have a tendency to be aligned with each other
It's not empiricaly right tho. Hitler and Stalin are the first type-examples. In the modern era it's normally Putin and Xi who get the label.
I already covered the origins of this propagandistic Western conceptualization of “authoritarianism”/“totalitarianism” in another comment in this post. But I’ll add a 1955 CIA report that was declassified in 2008.
Even in Stalin’s time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist power structure. Stalin, although holding wide powers, was merely the captain of a team and it seems obvious that Khrushchev will be the new captain.
I already covered the origins of this propagandistic Western conceptualization of “authoritarianism”/“totalitarianism” in another comment in this post
This is off topic, but I want to mention for the sake of other hexbears that I'm glad you linked to this other comment you made. It's a good comment but no one on hexbear can see it or anything else in that reply chain. Since you were replying to someone from an instance not federated with us, it's just not visible. A reminder that the exact same thread can look completely different depending on what instance you're reading it from.
Equivocating Stalin and Hitler is some crypto Nazi shit.
Equivocating Stalin and Hitler is some crypto Nazi shit.
It is standard in Westoid discourse, e.g. the Wikipedia page on "authoritarianism" probably does it idk didn't read it.
People who use words like "authoritarianism" equate the two.
Only one of those four is white, and it's a classic reactionary tactic to downplay him compared to the Georgian and the older Han Chinese example
Joe Biden and the US military industrial complex are currently helping Isreal commit a genocide out in the open, and that's your pick for 21st century Hitler? Tell me you don't think Palestinans matter without using the words, jesus.
Why not skip the middle step?
Go ask the NATO bloc and their supporters. The obvious and surface answer is that it has to do with making for an easy "us-vs-them" identifier. "Of course they're bad, they aren't white like us good wholesome folk are, who are inherently good and wholesome because we're white, and being good and wholesome makes us right and correct in what we do and you can tell because we're white. The ones who are bad clearly aren't like us. They're not white!" Yes, it is circular reasoning and garbage logic. But I don't know why you're getting pissy at us for that instead of the dipshits white people who keep moving the goalposts on the meaning of whiteness, as they always have done to suit their agenda. Take it up with them.
Sorry I have no idea what you're talking about.
The thread was asking about authoritarianism. I was slagging the people who said it's about being black, not about Hitler, Stalin, the USSR, Putin, etc.
You were asking about the shifting nature of the meaning of the term whiteness. Go up and read your own comment to see how you related that to authoritarianism. If you can't follow your own train of thought, then I can't help you because it makes it apparent you're not asking in good faith.
You're saying "authoritarianism = non-whiteness = opposition to the NATO bloc"
What I'm trying to explain to you is that "we" are not saying that. The people who use whiteness to justify their actions and otherize their enemies are saying that. This isn't difficult.
Like I said, I'm here to slag Yanks and their know-nothing racist views of the world.
It's astonishing how they'll confidently lecture ya on things they demonstrate complete ignorance of.
I think the myopic point you’re making is unintentionally promoting some heinous stuff, or else I have to wonder how you seemed to end up with a Lemmygrad alt account. I’m not seeing any “yanks” here being confused about race.
I was slagging the people who said it's about being black, not about Hitler, Stalin, the USSR, Putin, etc.
This is holocaust denialism.
Saying Hitler is white is holocaust denial?
This thread became gibberish a while back
Equating Hitler and Stalin or Nazi Germany and the USSR is holocaust trivialization, according to Jewish holocaust scholars. Dovid Katz did a popular article on it that you can probably search.
You know that isn't what I was saying piss off.
The shite Americans will make about skin-colour.
This comment doesn't stand up to 3 seconds thought. It's their one answer to every question.
Literal swastika-ass Nazis in Ukraine doing terrorism for a decade: we must arm these precious smol boys who are defending western civilization against the Russian orcs!
Literal fascists in Palestine doing a genocide against brown people: fuck your terrorist baby hospitals, there are no innocents in Gaza, bleed em dry and stack em high
Dipshits: Wow how could anyone think there's a racial component to this
Yanks have this one-size-fits-all thing with no knowledge of the world.
First guy was saying Hitler/Stalin/Milosevic/Putin aren't white, this guy is saying Palestinians are brown
Yanks
Your make-believe country has a hereditary monarch and human shit in the drinking water, you are recused from adult topics.
Really leaning into the "no knowledge of the world" thing
Back when we had kings prior to colonisation, they were elected, could be recalled, and were not hereditary.
Don't know what you're on about with the shit reference.
Your make-believe country
This is an old imperialist chestnut. We've heard it all before. As I said here, it is one reason we sympathise with our Palestinian friends: we both have imperialist fucks like you telling us our country is make-believe.
This is like a new level of playing victim.
Britain's economy is three arms conglomerates in a trench coat and your slapdash schools and hospitals are currently in the process of falling over. The suicide rate is through the roof, people are freezing to death in the winters and the immigration gestapo are snatching people into vans to be deported to concentration camps in Rwanda. Your rivers are full of cocaine runoff and everyone's depressed. You people have been thoroughly immiserated by authoritrian capitalism, and now you're acting like Cybertruck guys, lashing out at anyone pointing out that you've been lied to.
Spare me this sanctimonious "Me and the Palestinians are as brothers against the imperialists" canard, Paul Ma'ud Dipshit. You fuckers caused this whole situation with your dumb shit "British mandate of Palestine", and now you want to extremely caucasianly hop in and claim the good guys. Your country still worships Winston "I am strongly in favor of using poison gas against uncivilized tribes" Churchill, the miserable drunken fuck who created the Bengal Famine, killed a hundred million people, and said of it "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. They will breed like rabbits, famine or no." Toad Hitler is your national icon, you depressed cryptocurrency peddling royalty-sniffers have negative business lecturing anyone about anything.
I believe the person you are speaking to is Irish.
Thanks, that makes it weird as fuck that they're going to bat for Thatcher Island
Wasn't it obvious from the literal start that that person was Irish‽
Literally no, what kind of weird ass non-brit uses Yank every sentence?
ETA: What a stupid, unproductive, corrosive thread this fucking was.
I only just realized that "ETA" in Internet comments stands for "edited to add"
Go easy on them. These people can't point to countries on maps.
Please don't think that I'm necessarily agreeing with your stances and attitudes and so forth, but do think that I find ShimmeringKoi to be kind of embarrassing right now.
Take time out of your day and think about why you come across br*tish
I'm just gonna be honest, you're being cringe right now. "No it's not my fault I mistook this person's nationality, it's their fault for coming across to me as the wrong nationality" — no, just own up to your mistake, for God's sake, it's not hard. Preferably you wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place — you might've even been able to avoid it if you'd just read more carefully, given it even a second longer of thought, and weren't so quick to make assumptions.
You have laid bare how your mind works: "If someone's not from the USA they're from the UK"
Learn a bit about the world before talking about it.
How do youfigure that? It was the Brits and the U.N.
Your country still worships Winston
Again, showing your ignorance. Churchill hated us. He ordered the Black & Tans in here, who murdered three of my own relatives. He is a deeply reviled person here and in India.
The arrogance of Yanks is infinite. They think they can lecture people about Palestine/Ukraine/Tigray, when they can't even find countries on a map.
The one hammer in their thick minds is they black/white hammer, which makes no sense for interpreting 90% of things, e.g. authoritarianism in this case.
Honestly though, like our grappling with racism in the states smears our views of geopolitics so much. Like we struggle to imagine a culture not wrapped up in it.
Authoritarian is usually code for when white people don't rule a country
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: racism
We really ought to teach critical race theory in schools like conservative politicians and pundits claim.
lmao did someone really report me over getting their precious little white feelings hurt?
Russia tho.
Russians got kicked out of whiteness a couple years back
Oh my god that's real what the fuck lmao
When I was born in China, the spirit of Genghis Khan himself came to me and told me to be authoritarian
That’s why Russians aren’t “white” anymore. They’ve been downgraded to asiatic horde again, which is why NATOpedia has trotted out meat wave theory again. Like authoritarianism, whiteness is also an ever-shifting construct of imperialism/colonialism.
I have heard, from leftist, that Russian leadership has a higher tolerance for casualties on their side because THEY see the forced conscripts from easter Europe as disposalable. I have not seen/heard a NATO leader suggesting that they are.
If you're saying authoritarianism can be explained by non-whiteness....
But also saying that anyone opposing NATO become ipso facto non-white because it's "an ever-shifting construct"...
Then the "construct" has no explanatory power.
Why not just say 'authoritarianism' is opposition to the NATO bloc?
You're saying "authoritarianism = non-whiteness = opposition to the NATO bloc"
Why not skip the middle step?
I’m not saying that. I’m saying that “whiteness” as a construct is a tool of capitalism/imperialism/colonialism. And that the Global North similarly tends to attribute “authoritarianism” to whichever states are acting insufficiently subservient to their imperialist interests at any given moment. And I’m saying that these two constructs have a tendency to be aligned with each other, because they’re both tools of capitalism/imperialism/colonialism.
Whiteness is as old as European colonialism, and has been baked into capitalism—which began in Europe—from the start. Whiteness has been twisted into all sorts of nonsensical logic pretzels. See for example honorary Aryans honorary whites. It has no explanatory power because it is simply a tool of power. Even the Irish, Italian, and other Catholic European immigrants have suffered it within our own country. As Josep Borrell has more-or-less said, the imperial core is the “garden”, and the rest of the world is the “jungle.” Imperialism uses race—which again is made-up bullshit—as a tool to justify their imperialism.
I’m not saying that, but the NATO bloc often seems to imply it.
It's not empiricaly right tho. Hitler and Stalin are the first type-examples. In the modern era it's normally Putin and Xi who get the label.
I already covered the origins of this propagandistic Western conceptualization of “authoritarianism”/“totalitarianism” in another comment in this post. But I’ll add a 1955 CIA report that was declassified in 2008.
This is off topic, but I want to mention for the sake of other hexbears that I'm glad you linked to this other comment you made. It's a good comment but no one on hexbear can see it or anything else in that reply chain. Since you were replying to someone from an instance not federated with us, it's just not visible. A reminder that the exact same thread can look completely different depending on what instance you're reading it from.
Equivocating Stalin and Hitler is some crypto Nazi shit.
It is standard in Westoid discourse, e.g. the Wikipedia page on "authoritarianism" probably does it idk didn't read it.
People who use words like "authoritarianism" equate the two.
Only one of those four is white, and it's a classic reactionary tactic to downplay him compared to the Georgian and the older Han Chinese example
Joe Biden and the US military industrial complex are currently helping Isreal commit a genocide out in the open, and that's your pick for 21st century Hitler? Tell me you don't think Palestinans matter without using the words, jesus.
Go ask the NATO bloc and their supporters. The obvious and surface answer is that it has to do with making for an easy "us-vs-them" identifier. "Of course they're bad, they aren't white like us good wholesome folk are, who are inherently good and wholesome because we're white, and being good and wholesome makes us right and correct in what we do and you can tell because we're white. The ones who are bad clearly aren't like us. They're not white!" Yes, it is circular reasoning and garbage logic. But I don't know why you're getting pissy at us for that instead of the dipshits white people who keep moving the goalposts on the meaning of whiteness, as they always have done to suit their agenda. Take it up with them.
Sorry I have no idea what you're talking about.
The thread was asking about authoritarianism. I was slagging the people who said it's about being black, not about Hitler, Stalin, the USSR, Putin, etc.
You were asking about the shifting nature of the meaning of the term whiteness. Go up and read your own comment to see how you related that to authoritarianism. If you can't follow your own train of thought, then I can't help you because it makes it apparent you're not asking in good faith.
What I'm trying to explain to you is that "we" are not saying that. The people who use whiteness to justify their actions and otherize their enemies are saying that. This isn't difficult.
Like I said, I'm here to slag Yanks and their know-nothing racist views of the world.
It's astonishing how they'll confidently lecture ya on things they demonstrate complete ignorance of.
I think the myopic point you’re making is unintentionally promoting some heinous stuff, or else I have to wonder how you seemed to end up with a Lemmygrad alt account. I’m not seeing any “yanks” here being confused about race.
The original thing was they said "authoritarianism is when not white".
After that it got confusing.
This is holocaust denialism.
Saying Hitler is white is holocaust denial?
This thread became gibberish a while back
Equating Hitler and Stalin or Nazi Germany and the USSR is holocaust trivialization, according to Jewish holocaust scholars. Dovid Katz did a popular article on it that you can probably search.
You know that isn't what I was saying piss off.
The shite Americans will make about skin-colour.
This comment doesn't stand up to 3 seconds thought. It's their one answer to every question.
Literal swastika-ass Nazis in Ukraine doing terrorism for a decade: we must arm these precious smol boys who are defending western civilization against the Russian orcs!
Literal fascists in Palestine doing a genocide against brown people: fuck your terrorist baby hospitals, there are no innocents in Gaza, bleed em dry and stack em high
Dipshits: Wow how could anyone think there's a racial component to this
Yanks have this one-size-fits-all thing with no knowledge of the world.
First guy was saying Hitler/Stalin/Milosevic/Putin aren't white, this guy is saying Palestinians are brown
Your make-believe country has a hereditary monarch and human shit in the drinking water, you are recused from adult topics.
Really leaning into the "no knowledge of the world" thing
Back when we had kings prior to colonisation, they were elected, could be recalled, and were not hereditary.
Don't know what you're on about with the shit reference.
This is an old imperialist chestnut. We've heard it all before. As I said here, it is one reason we sympathise with our Palestinian friends: we both have imperialist fucks like you telling us our country is make-believe.
This is like a new level of playing victim. Britain's economy is three arms conglomerates in a trench coat and your slapdash schools and hospitals are currently in the process of falling over. The suicide rate is through the roof, people are freezing to death in the winters and the immigration gestapo are snatching people into vans to be deported to concentration camps in Rwanda. Your rivers are full of cocaine runoff and everyone's depressed. You people have been thoroughly immiserated by authoritrian capitalism, and now you're acting like Cybertruck guys, lashing out at anyone pointing out that you've been lied to.
Spare me this sanctimonious "Me and the Palestinians are as brothers against the imperialists" canard, Paul Ma'ud Dipshit. You fuckers caused this whole situation with your dumb shit "British mandate of Palestine", and now you want to extremely caucasianly hop in and claim the good guys. Your country still worships Winston "I am strongly in favor of using poison gas against uncivilized tribes" Churchill, the miserable drunken fuck who created the Bengal Famine, killed a hundred million people, and said of it "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. They will breed like rabbits, famine or no." Toad Hitler is your national icon, you depressed cryptocurrency peddling royalty-sniffers have negative business lecturing anyone about anything.
I believe the person you are speaking to is Irish.
Thanks, that makes it weird as fuck that they're going to bat for Thatcher Island
Wasn't it obvious from the literal start that that person was Irish‽
Literally no, what kind of weird ass non-brit uses Yank every sentence?
I think because they mod !noyank@lemmy.ml.
ETA: What a stupid, unproductive, corrosive thread this fucking was.
I only just realized that "ETA" in Internet comments stands for "edited to add"
Go easy on them. These people can't point to countries on maps.
Please don't think that I'm necessarily agreeing with your stances and attitudes and so forth, but do think that I find ShimmeringKoi to be kind of embarrassing right now.
Take time out of your day and think about why you come across br*tish
I'm just gonna be honest, you're being cringe right now. "No it's not my fault I mistook this person's nationality, it's their fault for coming across to me as the wrong nationality" — no, just own up to your mistake, for God's sake, it's not hard. Preferably you wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place — you might've even been able to avoid it if you'd just read more carefully, given it even a second longer of thought, and weren't so quick to make assumptions.
You have laid bare how your mind works: "If someone's not from the USA they're from the UK"
Learn a bit about the world before talking about it.
When did I say anything like that? 🤣🤣🤣
Nobody mentioned Britain, like?
The reading comprehension on ye, honestly. Imagine being this thick and still trying to lecture foreign countries on their poltics and history.
How do youfigure that? It was the Brits and the U.N.
Again, showing your ignorance. Churchill hated us. He ordered the Black & Tans in here, who murdered three of my own relatives. He is a deeply reviled person here and in India.
The arrogance of Yanks is infinite. They think they can lecture people about Palestine/Ukraine/Tigray, when they can't even find countries on a map.
The one hammer in their thick minds is they black/white hammer, which makes no sense for interpreting 90% of things, e.g. authoritarianism in this case.
Honestly though, like our grappling with racism in the states smears our views of geopolitics so much. Like we struggle to imagine a culture not wrapped up in it.