The CCP can artificially depress the value of their currency and subsidize their industries indefinitely. They are doing this on the backs of their workers, who should earn more for their labor. They are doing this because their own workers are too poor to provide sufficient domestic demand for their consumer goods, however, this strategy just makes their workers poorer, exacerbating the problem. Chinese exports should be used to make their economy self-sustaining, but they just perpetuate economic bubbles and malinvestment that cause economic stagnation. Neither domestic nor international commerce has never been free of interference or fair.
and subsidize their industries indefinitely
People keep saying this that are fully aware the US subsidizes its industries too. Yeah? They subsidize their electric vehicles? Fuckin good!
I don't think whataboutism ever helps anything. American subsidies and bailouts has not resulted in better consumer choice. However, choosing options that are due to dumping isn't going to produce sustainable industry either in China after the subsidies there end. The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Its resulted in lower prices for the industries subsidized.
I have no idea what you mean by dumping and unsustainable. Why would the subsidies end?
The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Do you realize youre arguing against a method to achieve more affordable prices?
I think he is stating that by subsidizing Chinese vehicles way below what could be practical to sell subsided non-Chinese vehicles at China can effectively kill off the non-Chinese automotive manufacturing capacity over enough time. Once this has been achieved China can increase prices drastically as Americans would no longer have domestic car options to buy, and creating a monopoly.
The US has way more money available to compete with those subsidies.
Yes but the alternative is not having to spend tons of money to subsidize private industry and not letting China profit off of American auto sales.
Its a worse alternative for the environment, we should both be investing in electric vehicles. Bullshit mindset when we could be having more affordable green technology and all people are thinking of is the economy. Fuck American auto sales, we dont need more gas guzzling SUVs in the world.
Honestly I'd that the lives saved from transitioning to EVs quicker is worth the trade. Eventually the car manufacturers will have to compete even if it means they stop making huge cars no one needs and start making smaller ones that travel further. I'm not going to pretend us manufacturers don't abuse the fuck out of Mexico, India, and China when it comes to sourcing parts and labor, but the environment is a global win we desperately need.
Considering we're deficit spending with every budget cycle, I'd say no we don't have the money. Furthermore, what about all the other brands sold in the US besides the three American ones of GM, Ford, and Tesla?
"Deficit" spending on the governmental level isn't the same as a family deficit spending.
I didn't say it was. Deficit spending to build a highway that winds up generating a bunch of extra revenue is one thing. Deficit spending to make a singular product cheaper than another country who is doing the same is a losing game.
Considering we’re deficit spending with every budget cycle
So is china, and at a higher rate than we are.
what about all the other brands sold in the US besides the three American ones of GM, Ford, and Tesla?
What about em?
How do they compete if the US subsidizes US companies and China subsidizes Chinese companies? Have you even thought through your proposal here? It certainly doesn't sound like it. Waving your hand around and thinking money appears out of nowhere seems to be the limit of your analysis.
How do they compete if the US subsidizes US companies and China subsidizes Chinese companies?
Why would i care?
Waving your hand around and thinking money appears out of nowhere seems to be the limit of your analysis.
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies? US has been spending hundreds of billions of dollars every year for decades on defense yet somehow we havent run out of money to spend. Learn how countries finance things.
Why would i care?
Yes, why bother gaining some understanding of the topic you're speaking about when you can instead remain ignorant and keep flapping your lips with poorly thought-out ideas?
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies? US has been spending hundreds of billions of dollars every year for decades on defense yet somehow we havent run out of money to spend. Learn how countries finance things.
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies?
When you spend your paycheck on bills does that money still remain in your account? The money doesn't disappear but the person or government who originally had it, no longer has it. Are you proposing the government just start printing money to give hundreds of billions in subsidies to the auto industry? That surely won't have any negative effects, right?
When you spend your paycheck on bills does that money still remain in your account?
And yet the next month i still have money to spend on bills, no money printer required.
Great, that means you have unlimited funds to spend on new things, right? In fact, why are you even complaining about the cost of a new car? You can easily afford to buy a whole fleet since you'll just get paid again in a month.
Just like how people can no longer afford low end manufactured goods because China massively increased the prices once they took over that market, right?
So, the Amazon & Walmart strategy?
The military and government contacts alone will keep the big 3 in business. They're in no danger of a mom and pop Walmart situation.
That's true and all but this decision is solely about oil barons and their fat fucking profits.
Its no coincidence that they are going after electric cars and solar panels. Chinese workers have had it rough for 30 years but green tech is where we draw the line and not literally everything else, who believes this?
Its not to protect the economy, it's not to protect the Chinese workers.
This is only about oil profits.
China did the same thing with solar panels a decade ago. It's the reason why my wife's employer shut down and hundreds of people lost their job. Having endless money to subsidize your product and sell it well below cost doesn't lead to more competition or better options. It puts everyone out of business and creates a monopoly for the country doing the subsidies who then has no reason to keep the price low.
It’s not the 80s any more. China has the largest middle class in the world, bigger than the population of most countries. 40% of the vehicles in service there are already electric. In the cities I visited it’s closer to 80%. Chinese shopping malls are filled with name brand western products and always busy. You’re either ignorant of the modern reality of China, or just a liar.
The CCP can artificially depress the value of their currency and subsidize their industries indefinitely. They are doing this on the backs of their workers, who should earn more for their labor. They are doing this because their own workers are too poor to provide sufficient domestic demand for their consumer goods, however, this strategy just makes their workers poorer, exacerbating the problem. Chinese exports should be used to make their economy self-sustaining, but they just perpetuate economic bubbles and malinvestment that cause economic stagnation. Neither domestic nor international commerce has never been free of interference or fair.
People keep saying this that are fully aware the US subsidizes its industries too. Yeah? They subsidize their electric vehicles? Fuckin good!
I don't think whataboutism ever helps anything. American subsidies and bailouts has not resulted in better consumer choice. However, choosing options that are due to dumping isn't going to produce sustainable industry either in China after the subsidies there end. The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Its resulted in lower prices for the industries subsidized.
I have no idea what you mean by dumping and unsustainable. Why would the subsidies end?
Do you realize youre arguing against a method to achieve more affordable prices?
I think he is stating that by subsidizing Chinese vehicles way below what could be practical to sell subsided non-Chinese vehicles at China can effectively kill off the non-Chinese automotive manufacturing capacity over enough time. Once this has been achieved China can increase prices drastically as Americans would no longer have domestic car options to buy, and creating a monopoly.
The US has way more money available to compete with those subsidies.
Yes but the alternative is not having to spend tons of money to subsidize private industry and not letting China profit off of American auto sales.
Its a worse alternative for the environment, we should both be investing in electric vehicles. Bullshit mindset when we could be having more affordable green technology and all people are thinking of is the economy. Fuck American auto sales, we dont need more gas guzzling SUVs in the world.
Honestly I'd that the lives saved from transitioning to EVs quicker is worth the trade. Eventually the car manufacturers will have to compete even if it means they stop making huge cars no one needs and start making smaller ones that travel further. I'm not going to pretend us manufacturers don't abuse the fuck out of Mexico, India, and China when it comes to sourcing parts and labor, but the environment is a global win we desperately need.
Considering we're deficit spending with every budget cycle, I'd say no we don't have the money. Furthermore, what about all the other brands sold in the US besides the three American ones of GM, Ford, and Tesla?
https://youtu.be/kFhKVCaadzE
"Deficit" spending on the governmental level isn't the same as a family deficit spending.
I didn't say it was. Deficit spending to build a highway that winds up generating a bunch of extra revenue is one thing. Deficit spending to make a singular product cheaper than another country who is doing the same is a losing game.
So is china, and at a higher rate than we are.
What about em?
How do they compete if the US subsidizes US companies and China subsidizes Chinese companies? Have you even thought through your proposal here? It certainly doesn't sound like it. Waving your hand around and thinking money appears out of nowhere seems to be the limit of your analysis.
Why would i care?
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies? US has been spending hundreds of billions of dollars every year for decades on defense yet somehow we havent run out of money to spend. Learn how countries finance things.
Yes, why bother gaining some understanding of the topic you're speaking about when you can instead remain ignorant and keep flapping your lips with poorly thought-out ideas?
When you spend your paycheck on bills does that money still remain in your account? The money doesn't disappear but the person or government who originally had it, no longer has it. Are you proposing the government just start printing money to give hundreds of billions in subsidies to the auto industry? That surely won't have any negative effects, right?
And yet the next month i still have money to spend on bills, no money printer required.
Great, that means you have unlimited funds to spend on new things, right? In fact, why are you even complaining about the cost of a new car? You can easily afford to buy a whole fleet since you'll just get paid again in a month.
Just like how people can no longer afford low end manufactured goods because China massively increased the prices once they took over that market, right?
So, the Amazon & Walmart strategy?
The military and government contacts alone will keep the big 3 in business. They're in no danger of a mom and pop Walmart situation.
That's true and all but this decision is solely about oil barons and their fat fucking profits.
Its no coincidence that they are going after electric cars and solar panels. Chinese workers have had it rough for 30 years but green tech is where we draw the line and not literally everything else, who believes this?
Its not to protect the economy, it's not to protect the Chinese workers.
This is only about oil profits.
China did the same thing with solar panels a decade ago. It's the reason why my wife's employer shut down and hundreds of people lost their job. Having endless money to subsidize your product and sell it well below cost doesn't lead to more competition or better options. It puts everyone out of business and creates a monopoly for the country doing the subsidies who then has no reason to keep the price low.
It’s not the 80s any more. China has the largest middle class in the world, bigger than the population of most countries. 40% of the vehicles in service there are already electric. In the cities I visited it’s closer to 80%. Chinese shopping malls are filled with name brand western products and always busy. You’re either ignorant of the modern reality of China, or just a liar.