Blatantly anti-competitive practices. We don't have a free market in the US. Shit is expensive so the wealthy can continue to profit at record levels while citizens pay the price. Why try to compete when you can protect the wealthy and make your country suffer?
The CCP can artificially depress the value of their currency and subsidize their industries indefinitely. They are doing this on the backs of their workers, who should earn more for their labor. They are doing this because their own workers are too poor to provide sufficient domestic demand for their consumer goods, however, this strategy just makes their workers poorer, exacerbating the problem. Chinese exports should be used to make their economy self-sustaining, but they just perpetuate economic bubbles and malinvestment that cause economic stagnation. Neither domestic nor international commerce has never been free of interference or fair.
and subsidize their industries indefinitely
People keep saying this that are fully aware the US subsidizes its industries too. Yeah? They subsidize their electric vehicles? Fuckin good!
I don't think whataboutism ever helps anything. American subsidies and bailouts has not resulted in better consumer choice. However, choosing options that are due to dumping isn't going to produce sustainable industry either in China after the subsidies there end. The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Its resulted in lower prices for the industries subsidized.
I have no idea what you mean by dumping and unsustainable. Why would the subsidies end?
The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Do you realize youre arguing against a method to achieve more affordable prices?
I think he is stating that by subsidizing Chinese vehicles way below what could be practical to sell subsided non-Chinese vehicles at China can effectively kill off the non-Chinese automotive manufacturing capacity over enough time. Once this has been achieved China can increase prices drastically as Americans would no longer have domestic car options to buy, and creating a monopoly.
The US has way more money available to compete with those subsidies.
Yes but the alternative is not having to spend tons of money to subsidize private industry and not letting China profit off of American auto sales.
Its a worse alternative for the environment, we should both be investing in electric vehicles. Bullshit mindset when we could be having more affordable green technology and all people are thinking of is the economy. Fuck American auto sales, we dont need more gas guzzling SUVs in the world.
Honestly I'd that the lives saved from transitioning to EVs quicker is worth the trade. Eventually the car manufacturers will have to compete even if it means they stop making huge cars no one needs and start making smaller ones that travel further. I'm not going to pretend us manufacturers don't abuse the fuck out of Mexico, India, and China when it comes to sourcing parts and labor, but the environment is a global win we desperately need.
Considering we're deficit spending with every budget cycle, I'd say no we don't have the money. Furthermore, what about all the other brands sold in the US besides the three American ones of GM, Ford, and Tesla?
"Deficit" spending on the governmental level isn't the same as a family deficit spending.
I didn't say it was. Deficit spending to build a highway that winds up generating a bunch of extra revenue is one thing. Deficit spending to make a singular product cheaper than another country who is doing the same is a losing game.
Considering we’re deficit spending with every budget cycle
So is china, and at a higher rate than we are.
what about all the other brands sold in the US besides the three American ones of GM, Ford, and Tesla?
What about em?
How do they compete if the US subsidizes US companies and China subsidizes Chinese companies? Have you even thought through your proposal here? It certainly doesn't sound like it. Waving your hand around and thinking money appears out of nowhere seems to be the limit of your analysis.
How do they compete if the US subsidizes US companies and China subsidizes Chinese companies?
Why would i care?
Waving your hand around and thinking money appears out of nowhere seems to be the limit of your analysis.
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies? US has been spending hundreds of billions of dollars every year for decades on defense yet somehow we havent run out of money to spend. Learn how countries finance things.
Why would i care?
Yes, why bother gaining some understanding of the topic you're speaking about when you can instead remain ignorant and keep flapping your lips with poorly thought-out ideas?
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies? US has been spending hundreds of billions of dollars every year for decades on defense yet somehow we havent run out of money to spend. Learn how countries finance things.
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies?
When you spend your paycheck on bills does that money still remain in your account? The money doesn't disappear but the person or government who originally had it, no longer has it. Are you proposing the government just start printing money to give hundreds of billions in subsidies to the auto industry? That surely won't have any negative effects, right?
When you spend your paycheck on bills does that money still remain in your account?
And yet the next month i still have money to spend on bills, no money printer required.
Just like how people can no longer afford low end manufactured goods because China massively increased the prices once they took over that market, right?
The military and government contacts alone will keep the big 3 in business. They're in no danger of a mom and pop Walmart situation.
That's true and all but this decision is solely about oil barons and their fat fucking profits.
Its no coincidence that they are going after electric cars and solar panels. Chinese workers have had it rough for 30 years but green tech is where we draw the line and not literally everything else, who believes this?
Its not to protect the economy, it's not to protect the Chinese workers.
This is only about oil profits.
China did the same thing with solar panels a decade ago. It's the reason why my wife's employer shut down and hundreds of people lost their job. Having endless money to subsidize your product and sell it well below cost doesn't lead to more competition or better options. It puts everyone out of business and creates a monopoly for the country doing the subsidies who then has no reason to keep the price low.
It’s not the 80s any more. China has the largest middle class in the world, bigger than the population of most countries. 40% of the vehicles in service there are already electric. In the cities I visited it’s closer to 80%. Chinese shopping malls are filled with name brand western products and always busy. You’re either ignorant of the modern reality of China, or just a liar.
China doesn't have the worker protections that the US has, the same level of gov't support, nor the environmental rules that the US has. It's only anti-competitive if there is a level playing field.
And the government just realized this now and are going to make it clear it isn't okay by fucking up any export out of China that has the word green in it.
Nothing to do with oil money folks, just China got caught red handed and we just weren't looking before. Yes, you can still keep your iPhone but fuck your solar panels and any car that doesn't crave gasoline.
China doesn’t have the worker protections that the US has
Yeah weve got protections, like minimum off time for sleep...wait no. Maternity leave? Nah. Well our child workers get protected meal breaks at least. But not the adults. Water breaks or temperature limits? Still no. US doesnt have damn worker protections.
You got 3 downvotes and no replies, so I'm replying to let you know you're speaking the truth. People are butthurt that the US isn't as good as it could be.
Naw, it's just both sides whatism bullshit. If anyone thinks as bad as things are in the US (and they are shitty), that workers are treated better in China, well they are higher than I am and don't deserve a response.
Its a combination of being unaware of how bad things are in the US, and having nothing but stereotypes to inform how you think Chinese labor is. Guess who has mandated maternity leave and who doesnt. Or paid sick leave. Or laws tying minimum wage to cost of living.
Unpaid wages are a chronic problem in China. Migrant workers are rarely given formal employment contracts. China’s state-run labour unions (independent ones are banned) often side with management in disputes. So companies are under little pressure to pay workers in a timely manner. Sometimes, when business is bad, they refuse to pay them at all. Tensions typically come to a head in the period before the Spring Festival, when migrant workers scramble to get months of back pay before going home. source
Now talk about environmental issues and state market manipulation.
Shitty migrant worker treatment, which country are you talking about again?
Jesus Christ. I feel like I'm back on reddit with a bunch of assholes. The original person was posting about tariffs being anti-free market. I made a post saying it's not a fair comparison due to several issues. I never said the US was fantastic or some utopian paradise. Your reply is also an insincere comparison. Migrant workers in the US are often undocumented workers from a different country (Don't try to say I'm excusing their treatment). The article I posted was about Chinese citizens being migrant workers in China. Even then, this dumb ass argument is a strawman to my original point. But for some reason, people on here have a weird hard on for China or the US. It's fucking ridiculous.
I made a post saying it’s not a fair comparison due to several issues. I never said the US was fantastic or some utopian paradise. Your reply is also an insincere comparison.
Right, you're arguing US and China labor protections arent comparable and Ive been making the case theyre very comparable.
Guess who also has to put suicide nets in their factories due to the working conditions of employees who are forced to live on-site and spend their earnings in company stores.
Apple, an American business.
It's Foxconn, which is a Chinese manufacturing company.
Where the fuck did anyone say workers are treated better in China? Do you enjoy making shit up?
Where the fuck did anyone say the US had fantastic worker protections? Do you enjoy making shit up?
What. Are you high. It was your comment that started the topic. Jesus Christ what is wrong with people
Please show me where I said US was fantastic. Please. I would never say that. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with people, but it has something to do with basic comprehension.
No idea why I'm replying, maybe I'm just bored.
You said US workers have better working protections, someone disagreed with that, which you replied with a twisted interpretation that they said China is fantastic, which was replied with "wtf" and now this. It's like some drug invested conversation where both sides make their own interpretation of what is said and continue to escalate.
I have no arguments on the topic itself, I'm just sick of the constant confrontational discussion with little or no meaning.
My wife lives and works in China. She can afford to rent a place in a city on minimum wage with no issues, healthcare, even emergency healthcare is cheap and without lines, she has more sick time benefits than I do, workers democracy literally just got mandated for all private and public companies. Tell me how much better I have it making $60k a year and being unable to afford to rent an apartment or go to the doctor even with insurance?
China literally has 40 hour workweeks, triple overtime, mandated workers democracy, mandated sick leave, mandated vacation time… this isn’t the 80s man. In a lot of ways they’re ahead of my country as far as labor protections go. My wife works at IKEA and gets better sick leave time than I do at a multi billion dollar company in the west.
Because China would be wise to subsidize their auto industry to sell at a loss just long enough to kill the American & European auto industry forcing us to buy Chinese vehicles.
Blatantly anti-competitive practices. We don't have a free market in the US. Shit is expensive so the wealthy can continue to profit at record levels while citizens pay the price. Why try to compete when you can protect the wealthy and make your country suffer?
The CCP can artificially depress the value of their currency and subsidize their industries indefinitely. They are doing this on the backs of their workers, who should earn more for their labor. They are doing this because their own workers are too poor to provide sufficient domestic demand for their consumer goods, however, this strategy just makes their workers poorer, exacerbating the problem. Chinese exports should be used to make their economy self-sustaining, but they just perpetuate economic bubbles and malinvestment that cause economic stagnation. Neither domestic nor international commerce has never been free of interference or fair.
People keep saying this that are fully aware the US subsidizes its industries too. Yeah? They subsidize their electric vehicles? Fuckin good!
I don't think whataboutism ever helps anything. American subsidies and bailouts has not resulted in better consumer choice. However, choosing options that are due to dumping isn't going to produce sustainable industry either in China after the subsidies there end. The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Its resulted in lower prices for the industries subsidized.
I have no idea what you mean by dumping and unsustainable. Why would the subsidies end?
Do you realize youre arguing against a method to achieve more affordable prices?
I think he is stating that by subsidizing Chinese vehicles way below what could be practical to sell subsided non-Chinese vehicles at China can effectively kill off the non-Chinese automotive manufacturing capacity over enough time. Once this has been achieved China can increase prices drastically as Americans would no longer have domestic car options to buy, and creating a monopoly.
The US has way more money available to compete with those subsidies.
Yes but the alternative is not having to spend tons of money to subsidize private industry and not letting China profit off of American auto sales.
Its a worse alternative for the environment, we should both be investing in electric vehicles. Bullshit mindset when we could be having more affordable green technology and all people are thinking of is the economy. Fuck American auto sales, we dont need more gas guzzling SUVs in the world.
Honestly I'd that the lives saved from transitioning to EVs quicker is worth the trade. Eventually the car manufacturers will have to compete even if it means they stop making huge cars no one needs and start making smaller ones that travel further. I'm not going to pretend us manufacturers don't abuse the fuck out of Mexico, India, and China when it comes to sourcing parts and labor, but the environment is a global win we desperately need.
Considering we're deficit spending with every budget cycle, I'd say no we don't have the money. Furthermore, what about all the other brands sold in the US besides the three American ones of GM, Ford, and Tesla?
https://youtu.be/kFhKVCaadzE
"Deficit" spending on the governmental level isn't the same as a family deficit spending.
I didn't say it was. Deficit spending to build a highway that winds up generating a bunch of extra revenue is one thing. Deficit spending to make a singular product cheaper than another country who is doing the same is a losing game.
So is china, and at a higher rate than we are.
What about em?
How do they compete if the US subsidizes US companies and China subsidizes Chinese companies? Have you even thought through your proposal here? It certainly doesn't sound like it. Waving your hand around and thinking money appears out of nowhere seems to be the limit of your analysis.
Why would i care?
Are you imagining money just disappearing once its spent on subsidies? US has been spending hundreds of billions of dollars every year for decades on defense yet somehow we havent run out of money to spend. Learn how countries finance things.
Yes, why bother gaining some understanding of the topic you're speaking about when you can instead remain ignorant and keep flapping your lips with poorly thought-out ideas?
When you spend your paycheck on bills does that money still remain in your account? The money doesn't disappear but the person or government who originally had it, no longer has it. Are you proposing the government just start printing money to give hundreds of billions in subsidies to the auto industry? That surely won't have any negative effects, right?
And yet the next month i still have money to spend on bills, no money printer required.
Just like how people can no longer afford low end manufactured goods because China massively increased the prices once they took over that market, right?
The military and government contacts alone will keep the big 3 in business. They're in no danger of a mom and pop Walmart situation.
So, the Amazon & Walmart strategy?
That's true and all but this decision is solely about oil barons and their fat fucking profits.
Its no coincidence that they are going after electric cars and solar panels. Chinese workers have had it rough for 30 years but green tech is where we draw the line and not literally everything else, who believes this?
Its not to protect the economy, it's not to protect the Chinese workers.
This is only about oil profits.
China did the same thing with solar panels a decade ago. It's the reason why my wife's employer shut down and hundreds of people lost their job. Having endless money to subsidize your product and sell it well below cost doesn't lead to more competition or better options. It puts everyone out of business and creates a monopoly for the country doing the subsidies who then has no reason to keep the price low.
It’s not the 80s any more. China has the largest middle class in the world, bigger than the population of most countries. 40% of the vehicles in service there are already electric. In the cities I visited it’s closer to 80%. Chinese shopping malls are filled with name brand western products and always busy. You’re either ignorant of the modern reality of China, or just a liar.
China doesn't have the worker protections that the US has, the same level of gov't support, nor the environmental rules that the US has. It's only anti-competitive if there is a level playing field.
And the government just realized this now and are going to make it clear it isn't okay by fucking up any export out of China that has the word green in it.
Nothing to do with oil money folks, just China got caught red handed and we just weren't looking before. Yes, you can still keep your iPhone but fuck your solar panels and any car that doesn't crave gasoline.
Yeah weve got protections, like minimum off time for sleep...wait no. Maternity leave? Nah. Well our child workers get protected meal breaks at least. But not the adults. Water breaks or temperature limits? Still no. US doesnt have damn worker protections.
You got 3 downvotes and no replies, so I'm replying to let you know you're speaking the truth. People are butthurt that the US isn't as good as it could be.
Naw, it's just both sides whatism bullshit. If anyone thinks as bad as things are in the US (and they are shitty), that workers are treated better in China, well they are higher than I am and don't deserve a response.
Its a combination of being unaware of how bad things are in the US, and having nothing but stereotypes to inform how you think Chinese labor is. Guess who has mandated maternity leave and who doesnt. Or paid sick leave. Or laws tying minimum wage to cost of living.
Now talk about environmental issues and state market manipulation.
Shitty migrant worker treatment, which country are you talking about again?
Jesus Christ. I feel like I'm back on reddit with a bunch of assholes. The original person was posting about tariffs being anti-free market. I made a post saying it's not a fair comparison due to several issues. I never said the US was fantastic or some utopian paradise. Your reply is also an insincere comparison. Migrant workers in the US are often undocumented workers from a different country (Don't try to say I'm excusing their treatment). The article I posted was about Chinese citizens being migrant workers in China. Even then, this dumb ass argument is a strawman to my original point. But for some reason, people on here have a weird hard on for China or the US. It's fucking ridiculous.
Right, you're arguing US and China labor protections arent comparable and Ive been making the case theyre very comparable.
Guess who also has to put suicide nets in their factories due to the working conditions of employees who are forced to live on-site and spend their earnings in company stores.
Apple, an American business.
It's Foxconn, which is a Chinese manufacturing company.
Where the fuck did anyone say workers are treated better in China? Do you enjoy making shit up?
Where the fuck did anyone say the US had fantastic worker protections? Do you enjoy making shit up?
What. Are you high. It was your comment that started the topic. Jesus Christ what is wrong with people
Please show me where I said US was fantastic. Please. I would never say that. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with people, but it has something to do with basic comprehension.
No idea why I'm replying, maybe I'm just bored.
You said US workers have better working protections, someone disagreed with that, which you replied with a twisted interpretation that they said China is fantastic, which was replied with "wtf" and now this. It's like some drug invested conversation where both sides make their own interpretation of what is said and continue to escalate.
I have no arguments on the topic itself, I'm just sick of the constant confrontational discussion with little or no meaning.
My wife lives and works in China. She can afford to rent a place in a city on minimum wage with no issues, healthcare, even emergency healthcare is cheap and without lines, she has more sick time benefits than I do, workers democracy literally just got mandated for all private and public companies. Tell me how much better I have it making $60k a year and being unable to afford to rent an apartment or go to the doctor even with insurance?
China literally has 40 hour workweeks, triple overtime, mandated workers democracy, mandated sick leave, mandated vacation time… this isn’t the 80s man. In a lot of ways they’re ahead of my country as far as labor protections go. My wife works at IKEA and gets better sick leave time than I do at a multi billion dollar company in the west.
Because China would be wise to subsidize their auto industry to sell at a loss just long enough to kill the American & European auto industry forcing us to buy Chinese vehicles.
this is the japanese scare all over again