Isn't that the point of the meme? Leftists can share 94% of views, but if they disagree on one thing they are treated as the worst enemy, rather than the people who share 0% of the same views.
Correct, if those differences are irreconcilable. I can ally with lefties that want slightly different things, but "America is evil therefore Stalin wasn't that bad" is not someone grounded in reality.
Don't take this as Stalin defending, but if you are trying to accomplish movements to the Left and both Person A and Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism, is Person B being a Stalin defender worth creating a 3 way battle when people who identify with C far outnumber A and B combined currently? That seems to go against what is strategically necessary in the US, at least.
I think it's more important to build a cohesive worker movement that's as large as possible before we move on to discussing Marxism vs Anarchism vs some other flavor of Leftism, at least in the US.
History shows that allying with authoritarians rarely works out for those who don't want authoritarianism.
Sure. But if you have to pick between a 3 way fight and a 2 way fight, it is easier to convince someone with 94% shared views while allying with them than it is to win a 3 way fight.
A united front is the only way to get Socialism in the US.
Yeah because it's historically been REALLY easy to get rid of authoritarian allies once a semblance of victory is achieved 🙄
Also, for a left libertarian (aka an anti-authoritarian leftist), the authoritarianism itself is a huge part of the problem.
Personally, I'm not a fan of people being murdered for trying to unionize like fascists would, but I'm also not a fan of people being murdered for NOT unionizing like stalinists would.
On the nose! Capitalism always devolves to authoritarian or fascistic systems when left to it's own devices. Broken by anticompetitive behavior. And Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism start there. Going from one to the other is a lateral move. Their benefits and faults are oddly similar. Despite how vehemently they despise each other. The authoritarian nature is the fault. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don't think you'll find many people advocating for either of those positions outside the most fringe of fringe.
Clearly you've not met a lot of tankies.
Not to worry though: since you're on Lemmy you're bound to meet far too many of them sooner rather than later!
The authoritarian nightmare will turn on you the moment they have secured victory. It happens every time.
Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism
Person B being a Stalin defender
They're the same picture /s
But seriously, the only reason Stalin's USSR wasn't "fascist" is because fascism is explicitly a right aligned ideology, but it was essentially fascist in practice. His whole thing was totalitarian rule and blaming enemies of the state for any shortcomings, which is just fascism with a coat of paint.
I'm not disagreeing with you here on whether or not the USSR is good or bad, that's not my point.
My point is that if both person A and person B want worker ownership and person C wants a dictatorship of Capitalism, then person A and B should ally, even if temporarily.
Person B is also a fascist, and should be let nowhere near power because they will purge person A the first second they can.
Even if they want 94% of the same things?
We aren't talking about MAGA Communists or PatSocs.
Let's say you and I align politically 99%. Our only point of contention is that I want to kill or jail you specifically. Are you going to ally with me and hope I change my mind later?
This is exaggerated to make a point, not a direct analogy.
What are the foundations of wanting to kill or jail me? Seems important, no?
You're saying if I have a good reason, you're OK with it?
Not necessarily, I'm saying your hypothetical lacks necessary information.
Presently, you've framed it in an Idealist manner, not a Materialist one. People's views aren't selected by a Random Number Generator in real life, they are the consequence of their Material Conditions. Matter creates thought, ideas do not create matter.
Looking at our hypothetical, you have a Leftist with the currently unexplained ideal that I personally should die for no reason. This doesn't make any practical sense, so we cannot apply this theory to practice.
In the case of this entire meme, there exists a divide, generally, between Marxists and Anarchists. Using your example of a Stalin defender, which situation is more realistic?
A: A Leftist believes everything the US state department has levied against Stalin is true, he killed 200 million people and murdered puppies, and believes that this is good, actually, and we should do more of it?
B: A Leftist believes nothing the US state department has said is true, and believes Stalin to be the second coming of Jesus Christ and Marx himself, and believes this to be a good thing?
Neither are realistic, but A makes far less internal sense, and cannot be reasoned with, as mass cruelty is the point. Person B, however, could be misled and instead worked with. Person B has good intentions with a faulty understanding, person A has bad intentions with a faulty understanding.
Do you see my point? Without knowing the origin of views, how can we hope to address them and how to deal with them?
You left out C.
Ostensible leftist that knows what horrific things Stalin did, but thinks they weren't that bad or even good, somehow. It's even more detached from reality than example A. Spend some time on lemmygrad and you'll see what I'm talking about.
That didn't really answer my question, did it? Do you agree that the why of views matters in many ways more than the views themselves when it comes to seeing if someone can be swayed or not?
Those things people disgree on are entire political axioms, so yes it is much bigger than a meme. Tankies think strong men are a good thing, which should be antithetical to anyone with the faintest hint of actual big boy anarchy in their politics. Worshiping leaders OR positions is literally and directly antithetical to MUCH of the left.
OFC there will be infighting when most people don't even understand what the left stands for. IMO, we shouldn't even dignify tankies and other strong-men liking idiots with a label anywhere close to "left". They're just idiot fascists wearing a different coat to try and fit in.
I don't see many actual Tankies then, I guess. Most Marxists just want a Worker-State and explicitly reject "Great Man Theory." I agree that worshipping strong men is antithetical to the left, but I also see this in a very fringe minority, and at that point the meme no longer applies as there is far more than 6% divergence.
MAGA Communists and PatSocs are clowns, I agree, but I don't think they share a significant percentage of views with anyone on the Left, Marxist or Anarchist alike.
If you haven't met one, you must not have been around long. They're all over. People who will rail against the US, but extoll the virtues of the USSR or the CCP? The ones who aren't just open sycophants for strong men are often completely ignorant to leftist ideals, like a strong state that dictates all sorts of things to the populace is itself in any form antithetical to many leftist axioms.
Any "lefty" that cannot explain how ACAB applies to even good cops is a pretty terrible leftist, as a different example. It's not about reducing specific occurences. It's about designing systems that naturally resist the BS.
It's only "worshiping" in the extreme examples. The "Normie" examples are people that literally cannot imagine society without armed police while claiming worker's rights, as an example. If you're for workers' rights, you shouldn't be for a sanctioned force that constantly fights against both protesters and picketers alike. It's about a gross disconnect in ideals vs what someone pushes for.
Like someone who realizes executives make way too much money, but scoff at worker co-ops. Either for not going far enough to worker ownership, or for being some hippy idea that won't work. There are fake "leftists" of many types.
Yes, there are clowns all over, but you HAVE to realize there are many, many people running around who are only missing the clown makeup...
It's the difference between agreeing on a problem vs agreeing on a solution. It is a WORLD of difference.
Most Marxists just want a Worker-State and explicitly reject "Great Man Theory." I agree that worshipping strong men is antithetical to the left, but I also see this in a very fringe minority
A minimal state. Representative of the people/proletariat. Not a brutal mono party that tries to crush all dissent.
And if strong man worship is so fringe and antithetical to ML. Why has it been a defining feature of every system of governance based on it? Stalin, Mao or Xi today, Castro, Kim Il Sung. Fringe is supposed to imply it's not a core component of every single implementation and yet it is.
I think it's fair to say that Marxists agree with Marx, and so the best representation of Marx is Critique of the Gotha Programme. The state should be as minimal as can be based on the Material Conditions, ie a stronger state is necessary if you are constantly being attacked by Capitalist nations, and a weaker state is necessary if you aren't. I don't think people are advocating for a strong monoparty, but a unified front of Workers. At least, in my experience.
Stalin, Mao, Xi, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, Trotsky, Che, Sankara, Deng, whoever you want to pick, aren't so much worshipped as they are studied, for their mistakes and the good things they did. Some are obviously more mistake than others, some were a net negative, some were a net positive, what's important is to study what happened so we can learn from it.
Is anything I said wrong?
Yes. External factors are one thing entirely. And completely unrelated to crushing dissent. Dissent is an internal thing. And if you automatically classify all the dissent as a product of external factors there by making it something to fight and crush. You may have just perfectly encapsulated the issues with your ideology.
Also while I agree capitalists are not really good friends. They used to be Allied with the Russians during World War II for example. It's almost like something happened post World War II that was actually the problem. And not just that capitalists must be fought everywhere. Do you know what that might have been? It's something China is currently dealing with and failing in their own way. And I'm not going to say that it's not hypocritical for many Western countries to criticize this considering what they've done. But just because a criticism is hypocritical doesn't mean it's not valid.
I never said I was against dissent. I'd be in favor of trying to rehabilitate fascists and Capitalists, sure, but open discussion of ideas is important. You calling it "issues with my ideology" is a bit silly.
I am not sure I understand where you are going with your second paragraph.
When internal dissent was mentioned you automatically jumped to externalizing it and fighting it. Not addressing it. You say that you're not against it. But you just said that you were against it.
You can play ignorant if you like. We aren't obligated to believe such poor acting however. You know exactly what I'm referring to. They forceful annexation of much of Eastern Europe post World War II including the dividing up of germany. And more contemporary. China's failure upon absorbing Hong kong. And saber a rattling regarding Taiwan.
I don't believe fascists or Capitalists should be allowed to violently attack people and attempt to gain power, that's silly.
As for expansionism, I am not sure why you are expecting me to defend that or apologize for it, I am not in control of the 20th century USSR or modern PRC.
I agree. That's not what I was talking about and you know that.
I didn't ask you to apologize. I was simply explaining why a lot of countries are against Russia China Etc. That they much like the capitalist countries have given plenty of reason for people not to like or trust them. Which in many ways does a tie back directly to their mistreatment of their own citizens. Capitalists are no more anyone's friend than ML are.
It's almost like you're engaging in bad faith. Which if I had to go by our history of interactions I would say is the most likely explanation.
So if we both know what I am advocating for, and what most people are advocating for, then why are you trying to pretend I agree with punishing dissent?
I agree that people have reason not to trust China or Russia. As much is valid, of course it is. I disagree that Marxists are somehow more dangerous to people than Capitalists.
I have been engaging exclusively in good-faith, the fact that this entire convo has been you putting words in my mouth means you're more likely to be bad faith. I still engage because I value constructive conversation, but if you aren't interested and are trying to disengage then there's no point.
A few things here. You have consistently, in this conversation even, many times lumped together and conflated all capitalists as a monolithic group. Do you have a right to object when someone does similar back at you?
Second you aren't "Marxist" or representative of all marxists. You are on a domain specifically dedicated to leninism. A specific sub branch of Marxism not representative of the group as a whole. Which also includes other groups like Marxist Libertarians and communists etc. Hi! While defending ML against Marxist and adjacent critiques. What are we supposed to think?
If anyone has put words in your mouth. Consider the fact that you've repeatedly deflected and ignored what was said. Leaving everyone to assumed your answers. Nothing was stopping you from being direct.
If everywhere that's implemented capitalism largely becomes violently exploitative. (And they do) And everywhere that's implemented governments based off ML ideology has always become violently oppressive. (And they have) Then neither is a flaw of their respective ideology, or they both are. And if an ideology is flawed, our allegiance should be to outcomes. Not the ideology. Herein lies the rub. And where the similarities in capitalism and Marxist-Leninism shine. And why the rest of the left dislikes both. Both have been tried and found lacking. We need to move beyond both at this point.
I lump together classes with their class interests. Nuance exists among individuals, but not among the average. If a Capitalist violently attacks others, they should be rehabilitated.
Lemmy.ml is explicitly a FOSS and Privacy instance. I do not have a Lemmygrad.ml account, which is explicitly Marxist-Leninist. I am a Marxist. I defend Marxism.
What did I ignore? What did I deflect?
Either way, I would say without analyzing trajectories and whys behind movements, you're doomed to repeat their failures and cannot be counted on to replicate success. You ought to mechanically and logically explain systemic failures and systemic victories.
If we strictly go off of track record snapshots devoid of any context, then nothing is good, and nothing can be done to improve, as Anarchism, Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, all have failed to exist perfectly. If we can learn, however, then we can move on.
Isn't that the point of the meme? Leftists can share 94% of views, but if they disagree on one thing they are treated as the worst enemy, rather than the people who share 0% of the same views.
Correct, if those differences are irreconcilable. I can ally with lefties that want slightly different things, but "America is evil therefore Stalin wasn't that bad" is not someone grounded in reality.
Don't take this as Stalin defending, but if you are trying to accomplish movements to the Left and both Person A and Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism, is Person B being a Stalin defender worth creating a 3 way battle when people who identify with C far outnumber A and B combined currently? That seems to go against what is strategically necessary in the US, at least.
I think it's more important to build a cohesive worker movement that's as large as possible before we move on to discussing Marxism vs Anarchism vs some other flavor of Leftism, at least in the US.
History shows that allying with authoritarians rarely works out for those who don't want authoritarianism.
Sure. But if you have to pick between a 3 way fight and a 2 way fight, it is easier to convince someone with 94% shared views while allying with them than it is to win a 3 way fight.
A united front is the only way to get Socialism in the US.
Yeah because it's historically been REALLY easy to get rid of authoritarian allies once a semblance of victory is achieved 🙄
Also, for a left libertarian (aka an anti-authoritarian leftist), the authoritarianism itself is a huge part of the problem.
Personally, I'm not a fan of people being murdered for trying to unionize like fascists would, but I'm also not a fan of people being murdered for NOT unionizing like stalinists would.
On the nose! Capitalism always devolves to authoritarian or fascistic systems when left to it's own devices. Broken by anticompetitive behavior. And Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism start there. Going from one to the other is a lateral move. Their benefits and faults are oddly similar. Despite how vehemently they despise each other. The authoritarian nature is the fault. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don't think you'll find many people advocating for either of those positions outside the most fringe of fringe.
Clearly you've not met a lot of tankies.
Not to worry though: since you're on Lemmy you're bound to meet far too many of them sooner rather than later!
The authoritarian nightmare will turn on you the moment they have secured victory. It happens every time.
They're the same picture /s
But seriously, the only reason Stalin's USSR wasn't "fascist" is because fascism is explicitly a right aligned ideology, but it was essentially fascist in practice. His whole thing was totalitarian rule and blaming enemies of the state for any shortcomings, which is just fascism with a coat of paint.
I'm not disagreeing with you here on whether or not the USSR is good or bad, that's not my point.
My point is that if both person A and person B want worker ownership and person C wants a dictatorship of Capitalism, then person A and B should ally, even if temporarily.
Person B is also a fascist, and should be let nowhere near power because they will purge person A the first second they can.
Even if they want 94% of the same things?
We aren't talking about MAGA Communists or PatSocs.
Let's say you and I align politically 99%. Our only point of contention is that I want to kill or jail you specifically. Are you going to ally with me and hope I change my mind later?
This is exaggerated to make a point, not a direct analogy.
What are the foundations of wanting to kill or jail me? Seems important, no?
You're saying if I have a good reason, you're OK with it?
Not necessarily, I'm saying your hypothetical lacks necessary information.
Presently, you've framed it in an Idealist manner, not a Materialist one. People's views aren't selected by a Random Number Generator in real life, they are the consequence of their Material Conditions. Matter creates thought, ideas do not create matter.
Looking at our hypothetical, you have a Leftist with the currently unexplained ideal that I personally should die for no reason. This doesn't make any practical sense, so we cannot apply this theory to practice.
In the case of this entire meme, there exists a divide, generally, between Marxists and Anarchists. Using your example of a Stalin defender, which situation is more realistic?
A: A Leftist believes everything the US state department has levied against Stalin is true, he killed 200 million people and murdered puppies, and believes that this is good, actually, and we should do more of it?
B: A Leftist believes nothing the US state department has said is true, and believes Stalin to be the second coming of Jesus Christ and Marx himself, and believes this to be a good thing?
Neither are realistic, but A makes far less internal sense, and cannot be reasoned with, as mass cruelty is the point. Person B, however, could be misled and instead worked with. Person B has good intentions with a faulty understanding, person A has bad intentions with a faulty understanding.
Do you see my point? Without knowing the origin of views, how can we hope to address them and how to deal with them?
You left out C.
Ostensible leftist that knows what horrific things Stalin did, but thinks they weren't that bad or even good, somehow. It's even more detached from reality than example A. Spend some time on lemmygrad and you'll see what I'm talking about.
That didn't really answer my question, did it? Do you agree that the why of views matters in many ways more than the views themselves when it comes to seeing if someone can be swayed or not?
So you're basically saying that independent thought is a myth. What heinous material conditions forced you to come up with THAT turd? 🤦
I am not. I am saying that people are products of their environment. Someone raised with no concept of "Jupiter" wouldn't think about Jupiter.
Those things people disgree on are entire political axioms, so yes it is much bigger than a meme. Tankies think strong men are a good thing, which should be antithetical to anyone with the faintest hint of actual big boy anarchy in their politics. Worshiping leaders OR positions is literally and directly antithetical to MUCH of the left.
OFC there will be infighting when most people don't even understand what the left stands for. IMO, we shouldn't even dignify tankies and other strong-men liking idiots with a label anywhere close to "left". They're just idiot fascists wearing a different coat to try and fit in.
I don't see many actual Tankies then, I guess. Most Marxists just want a Worker-State and explicitly reject "Great Man Theory." I agree that worshipping strong men is antithetical to the left, but I also see this in a very fringe minority, and at that point the meme no longer applies as there is far more than 6% divergence.
MAGA Communists and PatSocs are clowns, I agree, but I don't think they share a significant percentage of views with anyone on the Left, Marxist or Anarchist alike.
If you haven't met one, you must not have been around long. They're all over. People who will rail against the US, but extoll the virtues of the USSR or the CCP? The ones who aren't just open sycophants for strong men are often completely ignorant to leftist ideals, like a strong state that dictates all sorts of things to the populace is itself in any form antithetical to many leftist axioms.
Any "lefty" that cannot explain how ACAB applies to even good cops is a pretty terrible leftist, as a different example. It's not about reducing specific occurences. It's about designing systems that naturally resist the BS.
It's only "worshiping" in the extreme examples. The "Normie" examples are people that literally cannot imagine society without armed police while claiming worker's rights, as an example. If you're for workers' rights, you shouldn't be for a sanctioned force that constantly fights against both protesters and picketers alike. It's about a gross disconnect in ideals vs what someone pushes for.
Like someone who realizes executives make way too much money, but scoff at worker co-ops. Either for not going far enough to worker ownership, or for being some hippy idea that won't work. There are fake "leftists" of many types.
Yes, there are clowns all over, but you HAVE to realize there are many, many people running around who are only missing the clown makeup...
It's the difference between agreeing on a problem vs agreeing on a solution. It is a WORLD of difference.
A minimal state. Representative of the people/proletariat. Not a brutal mono party that tries to crush all dissent.
And if strong man worship is so fringe and antithetical to ML. Why has it been a defining feature of every system of governance based on it? Stalin, Mao or Xi today, Castro, Kim Il Sung. Fringe is supposed to imply it's not a core component of every single implementation and yet it is.
I think it's fair to say that Marxists agree with Marx, and so the best representation of Marx is Critique of the Gotha Programme. The state should be as minimal as can be based on the Material Conditions, ie a stronger state is necessary if you are constantly being attacked by Capitalist nations, and a weaker state is necessary if you aren't. I don't think people are advocating for a strong monoparty, but a unified front of Workers. At least, in my experience.
Stalin, Mao, Xi, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, Trotsky, Che, Sankara, Deng, whoever you want to pick, aren't so much worshipped as they are studied, for their mistakes and the good things they did. Some are obviously more mistake than others, some were a net negative, some were a net positive, what's important is to study what happened so we can learn from it.
Is anything I said wrong?
Yes. External factors are one thing entirely. And completely unrelated to crushing dissent. Dissent is an internal thing. And if you automatically classify all the dissent as a product of external factors there by making it something to fight and crush. You may have just perfectly encapsulated the issues with your ideology.
Also while I agree capitalists are not really good friends. They used to be Allied with the Russians during World War II for example. It's almost like something happened post World War II that was actually the problem. And not just that capitalists must be fought everywhere. Do you know what that might have been? It's something China is currently dealing with and failing in their own way. And I'm not going to say that it's not hypocritical for many Western countries to criticize this considering what they've done. But just because a criticism is hypocritical doesn't mean it's not valid.
I never said I was against dissent. I'd be in favor of trying to rehabilitate fascists and Capitalists, sure, but open discussion of ideas is important. You calling it "issues with my ideology" is a bit silly.
I am not sure I understand where you are going with your second paragraph.
When internal dissent was mentioned you automatically jumped to externalizing it and fighting it. Not addressing it. You say that you're not against it. But you just said that you were against it.
You can play ignorant if you like. We aren't obligated to believe such poor acting however. You know exactly what I'm referring to. They forceful annexation of much of Eastern Europe post World War II including the dividing up of germany. And more contemporary. China's failure upon absorbing Hong kong. And saber a rattling regarding Taiwan.
I don't believe fascists or Capitalists should be allowed to violently attack people and attempt to gain power, that's silly.
As for expansionism, I am not sure why you are expecting me to defend that or apologize for it, I am not in control of the 20th century USSR or modern PRC.
I agree. That's not what I was talking about and you know that.
I didn't ask you to apologize. I was simply explaining why a lot of countries are against Russia China Etc. That they much like the capitalist countries have given plenty of reason for people not to like or trust them. Which in many ways does a tie back directly to their mistreatment of their own citizens. Capitalists are no more anyone's friend than ML are.
It's almost like you're engaging in bad faith. Which if I had to go by our history of interactions I would say is the most likely explanation.
So if we both know what I am advocating for, and what most people are advocating for, then why are you trying to pretend I agree with punishing dissent?
I agree that people have reason not to trust China or Russia. As much is valid, of course it is. I disagree that Marxists are somehow more dangerous to people than Capitalists.
I have been engaging exclusively in good-faith, the fact that this entire convo has been you putting words in my mouth means you're more likely to be bad faith. I still engage because I value constructive conversation, but if you aren't interested and are trying to disengage then there's no point.
A few things here. You have consistently, in this conversation even, many times lumped together and conflated all capitalists as a monolithic group. Do you have a right to object when someone does similar back at you?
Second you aren't "Marxist" or representative of all marxists. You are on a domain specifically dedicated to leninism. A specific sub branch of Marxism not representative of the group as a whole. Which also includes other groups like Marxist Libertarians and communists etc. Hi! While defending ML against Marxist and adjacent critiques. What are we supposed to think?
If anyone has put words in your mouth. Consider the fact that you've repeatedly deflected and ignored what was said. Leaving everyone to assumed your answers. Nothing was stopping you from being direct.
If everywhere that's implemented capitalism largely becomes violently exploitative. (And they do) And everywhere that's implemented governments based off ML ideology has always become violently oppressive. (And they have) Then neither is a flaw of their respective ideology, or they both are. And if an ideology is flawed, our allegiance should be to outcomes. Not the ideology. Herein lies the rub. And where the similarities in capitalism and Marxist-Leninism shine. And why the rest of the left dislikes both. Both have been tried and found lacking. We need to move beyond both at this point.
I lump together classes with their class interests. Nuance exists among individuals, but not among the average. If a Capitalist violently attacks others, they should be rehabilitated.
Lemmy.ml is explicitly a FOSS and Privacy instance. I do not have a Lemmygrad.ml account, which is explicitly Marxist-Leninist. I am a Marxist. I defend Marxism.
What did I ignore? What did I deflect?
Either way, I would say without analyzing trajectories and whys behind movements, you're doomed to repeat their failures and cannot be counted on to replicate success. You ought to mechanically and logically explain systemic failures and systemic victories.
If we strictly go off of track record snapshots devoid of any context, then nothing is good, and nothing can be done to improve, as Anarchism, Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, all have failed to exist perfectly. If we can learn, however, then we can move on.