Correct, if those differences are irreconcilable. I can ally with lefties that want slightly different things, but "America is evil therefore Stalin wasn't that bad" is not someone grounded in reality.
Don't take this as Stalin defending, but if you are trying to accomplish movements to the Left and both Person A and Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism, is Person B being a Stalin defender worth creating a 3 way battle when people who identify with C far outnumber A and B combined currently? That seems to go against what is strategically necessary in the US, at least.
I think it's more important to build a cohesive worker movement that's as large as possible before we move on to discussing Marxism vs Anarchism vs some other flavor of Leftism, at least in the US.
History shows that allying with authoritarians rarely works out for those who don't want authoritarianism.
Sure. But if you have to pick between a 3 way fight and a 2 way fight, it is easier to convince someone with 94% shared views while allying with them than it is to win a 3 way fight.
A united front is the only way to get Socialism in the US.
Yeah because it's historically been REALLY easy to get rid of authoritarian allies once a semblance of victory is achieved 🙄
Also, for a left libertarian (aka an anti-authoritarian leftist), the authoritarianism itself is a huge part of the problem.
Personally, I'm not a fan of people being murdered for trying to unionize like fascists would, but I'm also not a fan of people being murdered for NOT unionizing like stalinists would.
On the nose! Capitalism always devolves to authoritarian or fascistic systems when left to it's own devices. Broken by anticompetitive behavior. And Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism start there. Going from one to the other is a lateral move. Their benefits and faults are oddly similar. Despite how vehemently they despise each other. The authoritarian nature is the fault. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don't think you'll find many people advocating for either of those positions outside the most fringe of fringe.
Clearly you've not met a lot of tankies.
Not to worry though: since you're on Lemmy you're bound to meet far too many of them sooner rather than later!
The authoritarian nightmare will turn on you the moment they have secured victory. It happens every time.
Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism
Person B being a Stalin defender
They're the same picture /s
But seriously, the only reason Stalin's USSR wasn't "fascist" is because fascism is explicitly a right aligned ideology, but it was essentially fascist in practice. His whole thing was totalitarian rule and blaming enemies of the state for any shortcomings, which is just fascism with a coat of paint.
I'm not disagreeing with you here on whether or not the USSR is good or bad, that's not my point.
My point is that if both person A and person B want worker ownership and person C wants a dictatorship of Capitalism, then person A and B should ally, even if temporarily.
Person B is also a fascist, and should be let nowhere near power because they will purge person A the first second they can.
Even if they want 94% of the same things?
We aren't talking about MAGA Communists or PatSocs.
Let's say you and I align politically 99%. Our only point of contention is that I want to kill or jail you specifically. Are you going to ally with me and hope I change my mind later?
This is exaggerated to make a point, not a direct analogy.
What are the foundations of wanting to kill or jail me? Seems important, no?
You're saying if I have a good reason, you're OK with it?
Not necessarily, I'm saying your hypothetical lacks necessary information.
Presently, you've framed it in an Idealist manner, not a Materialist one. People's views aren't selected by a Random Number Generator in real life, they are the consequence of their Material Conditions. Matter creates thought, ideas do not create matter.
Looking at our hypothetical, you have a Leftist with the currently unexplained ideal that I personally should die for no reason. This doesn't make any practical sense, so we cannot apply this theory to practice.
In the case of this entire meme, there exists a divide, generally, between Marxists and Anarchists. Using your example of a Stalin defender, which situation is more realistic?
A: A Leftist believes everything the US state department has levied against Stalin is true, he killed 200 million people and murdered puppies, and believes that this is good, actually, and we should do more of it?
B: A Leftist believes nothing the US state department has said is true, and believes Stalin to be the second coming of Jesus Christ and Marx himself, and believes this to be a good thing?
Neither are realistic, but A makes far less internal sense, and cannot be reasoned with, as mass cruelty is the point. Person B, however, could be misled and instead worked with. Person B has good intentions with a faulty understanding, person A has bad intentions with a faulty understanding.
Do you see my point? Without knowing the origin of views, how can we hope to address them and how to deal with them?
You left out C.
Ostensible leftist that knows what horrific things Stalin did, but thinks they weren't that bad or even good, somehow. It's even more detached from reality than example A. Spend some time on lemmygrad and you'll see what I'm talking about.
That didn't really answer my question, did it? Do you agree that the why of views matters in many ways more than the views themselves when it comes to seeing if someone can be swayed or not?
So you're saying if you think you can change my mind, you would ally with me? Or would you try to change my mind first?
So you're basically saying that independent thought is a myth. What heinous material conditions forced you to come up with THAT turd? 🤦
I am not. I am saying that people are products of their environment. Someone raised with no concept of "Jupiter" wouldn't think about Jupiter.
^ It's like my best friend from High School who disowned me. We were always on opposite ends of the political spectrum but always met in the middle at "everything is fucked and rigged." Of COURSE he was a capitalist conservative, his Dad owned a successful construction company, but we still saw the same flaws in the system and respected/saw what the other was saying on whatever issue we discussed.
I won't say he didn't work hard or anything, he did go to college (paid for though, of course) and work a real job in his business/bookkeeping field for a while. But sure enough after a few years with his family resources and connections he started a real estate business and now I'm a filthy commie even for just utilizing VA health care (which isn't a "freebie," but a part of the agreement when you join.)
My point is, we were able to find middle ground and agree on certain things, until his privileged position allowed him to "win." Then, all of a sudden, the system is perfect and I'm just a loser who wants winners to pay for losers and if I want healthcare (or whatever) I should just get off my ass and "win." Of course the system seems flawless and superior when you have all the material conditions to just waltz in with no struggle or strife.
((Lesser point, we were friends for like 20 years from age 14-15 and I still miss my friend))
actually, "Jupiter" would not exist as a concept if not for someone raised without it inventing it in the first place.
People are influenced by their environment for sure, but not only is the environment influenced by the people too, there are also myriad other determining factors at play.
Correct, if those differences are irreconcilable. I can ally with lefties that want slightly different things, but "America is evil therefore Stalin wasn't that bad" is not someone grounded in reality.
Don't take this as Stalin defending, but if you are trying to accomplish movements to the Left and both Person A and Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism, is Person B being a Stalin defender worth creating a 3 way battle when people who identify with C far outnumber A and B combined currently? That seems to go against what is strategically necessary in the US, at least.
I think it's more important to build a cohesive worker movement that's as large as possible before we move on to discussing Marxism vs Anarchism vs some other flavor of Leftism, at least in the US.
History shows that allying with authoritarians rarely works out for those who don't want authoritarianism.
Sure. But if you have to pick between a 3 way fight and a 2 way fight, it is easier to convince someone with 94% shared views while allying with them than it is to win a 3 way fight.
A united front is the only way to get Socialism in the US.
Yeah because it's historically been REALLY easy to get rid of authoritarian allies once a semblance of victory is achieved 🙄
Also, for a left libertarian (aka an anti-authoritarian leftist), the authoritarianism itself is a huge part of the problem.
Personally, I'm not a fan of people being murdered for trying to unionize like fascists would, but I'm also not a fan of people being murdered for NOT unionizing like stalinists would.
On the nose! Capitalism always devolves to authoritarian or fascistic systems when left to it's own devices. Broken by anticompetitive behavior. And Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism start there. Going from one to the other is a lateral move. Their benefits and faults are oddly similar. Despite how vehemently they despise each other. The authoritarian nature is the fault. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don't think you'll find many people advocating for either of those positions outside the most fringe of fringe.
Clearly you've not met a lot of tankies.
Not to worry though: since you're on Lemmy you're bound to meet far too many of them sooner rather than later!
The authoritarian nightmare will turn on you the moment they have secured victory. It happens every time.
They're the same picture /s
But seriously, the only reason Stalin's USSR wasn't "fascist" is because fascism is explicitly a right aligned ideology, but it was essentially fascist in practice. His whole thing was totalitarian rule and blaming enemies of the state for any shortcomings, which is just fascism with a coat of paint.
I'm not disagreeing with you here on whether or not the USSR is good or bad, that's not my point.
My point is that if both person A and person B want worker ownership and person C wants a dictatorship of Capitalism, then person A and B should ally, even if temporarily.
Person B is also a fascist, and should be let nowhere near power because they will purge person A the first second they can.
Even if they want 94% of the same things?
We aren't talking about MAGA Communists or PatSocs.
Let's say you and I align politically 99%. Our only point of contention is that I want to kill or jail you specifically. Are you going to ally with me and hope I change my mind later?
This is exaggerated to make a point, not a direct analogy.
What are the foundations of wanting to kill or jail me? Seems important, no?
You're saying if I have a good reason, you're OK with it?
Not necessarily, I'm saying your hypothetical lacks necessary information.
Presently, you've framed it in an Idealist manner, not a Materialist one. People's views aren't selected by a Random Number Generator in real life, they are the consequence of their Material Conditions. Matter creates thought, ideas do not create matter.
Looking at our hypothetical, you have a Leftist with the currently unexplained ideal that I personally should die for no reason. This doesn't make any practical sense, so we cannot apply this theory to practice.
In the case of this entire meme, there exists a divide, generally, between Marxists and Anarchists. Using your example of a Stalin defender, which situation is more realistic?
A: A Leftist believes everything the US state department has levied against Stalin is true, he killed 200 million people and murdered puppies, and believes that this is good, actually, and we should do more of it?
B: A Leftist believes nothing the US state department has said is true, and believes Stalin to be the second coming of Jesus Christ and Marx himself, and believes this to be a good thing?
Neither are realistic, but A makes far less internal sense, and cannot be reasoned with, as mass cruelty is the point. Person B, however, could be misled and instead worked with. Person B has good intentions with a faulty understanding, person A has bad intentions with a faulty understanding.
Do you see my point? Without knowing the origin of views, how can we hope to address them and how to deal with them?
You left out C.
Ostensible leftist that knows what horrific things Stalin did, but thinks they weren't that bad or even good, somehow. It's even more detached from reality than example A. Spend some time on lemmygrad and you'll see what I'm talking about.
That didn't really answer my question, did it? Do you agree that the why of views matters in many ways more than the views themselves when it comes to seeing if someone can be swayed or not?
So you're saying if you think you can change my mind, you would ally with me? Or would you try to change my mind first?
So you're basically saying that independent thought is a myth. What heinous material conditions forced you to come up with THAT turd? 🤦
I am not. I am saying that people are products of their environment. Someone raised with no concept of "Jupiter" wouldn't think about Jupiter.
^ It's like my best friend from High School who disowned me. We were always on opposite ends of the political spectrum but always met in the middle at "everything is fucked and rigged." Of COURSE he was a capitalist conservative, his Dad owned a successful construction company, but we still saw the same flaws in the system and respected/saw what the other was saying on whatever issue we discussed.
I won't say he didn't work hard or anything, he did go to college (paid for though, of course) and work a real job in his business/bookkeeping field for a while. But sure enough after a few years with his family resources and connections he started a real estate business and now I'm a filthy commie even for just utilizing VA health care (which isn't a "freebie," but a part of the agreement when you join.)
My point is, we were able to find middle ground and agree on certain things, until his privileged position allowed him to "win." Then, all of a sudden, the system is perfect and I'm just a loser who wants winners to pay for losers and if I want healthcare (or whatever) I should just get off my ass and "win." Of course the system seems flawless and superior when you have all the material conditions to just waltz in with no struggle or strife.
((Lesser point, we were friends for like 20 years from age 14-15 and I still miss my friend))
actually, "Jupiter" would not exist as a concept if not for someone raised without it inventing it in the first place.
People are influenced by their environment for sure, but not only is the environment influenced by the people too, there are also myriad other determining factors at play.