That's bullshit. Same argument corporations try to push on us about climate change. Fish rots from the head down. Obviously there will be sacrifices we have to make. But to preach "what will YOU be giving up, huh??" when megacorps and gazillionaires hoard literal mountains of wealth to the detriment of the planet and all others while they purposely stand in the way of any progress or change that might affect their bottom line? Bootlicking at worst, misguided liberal soapbox bullshit at best.
Lol, I love "bootlicking" on Lemmy, as far as I can tell it's used the same way trump uses rigged, that is to say "I don't like it!"
I mean, on climate change, farming is one of the biggest contributors and as fat as the fat cats are, the 333 million non billionaire Americans eat a boatload more beef than the 750ish billionaires. Meanwhile, in terms of say, children losing their limbs mining the cobalt for our phones, the 333 million are way more responsible. Same story for sweatshops. Same for air travel, oil consumption etc.
But man, actual change on our part would be hard. Way easier to rail about billionaires online and feel snugly superior rather than actually doing the work.
Oh wow has Lemmy gotten big enough that now people bring it up in every comeback post the way people do with Reddit? Awesome. That's gonna so fun.
Call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is that you complaining about Americans eating beef will change nothing, while enacting policies punishing the corporations producing the bulk the waste on Earth will. But hey, I'll bite, I don't eat meat, and I don't drive a car, since I work from home. So what else should I do to make you happy? Not have a smartphone, because smartphone bad? I've had the same one since high school, but sure, I'll stop using that too. Now, what? Absolutely jack shit. I'm not feeling "snugly superior". What I'm feeling is tired of randos, probably in my own damn tax bracket, defending the corporations and billionaires literally producing everything being consumed. Good luck convincing those 333 million Americans you googled to stop eating meat and dairy, which they have been convinced is necessary to live due to misinformation campaigns. Good luck convincing them driving the cars that those companies have and continue to lobby infrastructure for. Good luck convincing each and every single individual to basically halt their entire life as it currently is, one by one. Those Americans who have a very rich history of listening to others. That will be much, MUCH easier than targeting the corporations, and DEFINITELY much more effective.
You came to try to shame me and apparently all of America for refusing to do the work, because you interpreted me saying "corporations and billionaires are a bigger problem" (because they are) as "we shouldn't take any individual responsibility". But I'm the one being snugly superior lmao. Dunno why, but this is always argument people with your viewpoint make. Nobody said we shouldn't take individual responsibility. On the contrary, I think we should all stop driving cars, and cut back on the insanely bloated levels of consumption in this country, alone. But I can only do so much. I can't do shit about what you or every other person in this country is doing. And when people call for changes, especially involving policies for the some of the biggest polluters on the planet in a country whose politicians frequently block any such change, sauntering into the room and going "oh wow but you have a phone lol" doesn't amount to anything but bootlicking. Because you're not advocating for anything; nobody is arguing against personal responsibility. But when will it be their responsibility? They didn't ask for your help, and they certainly don't need it. So if it ain't bootlicking, it's just fucking pointless.
Oh wow has Lemmy gotten big enough that now people bring it up in every comeback post the way people do with Reddit? Awesome. That's gonna so fun.
I literally have no idea what you're trying to say.
I figured.
farming is one of the biggest contributors
all of agriculture makes up about 20% of our ghg emissions.
Which is pretty huge and mostly discretionary.
we need to eat. lets dismantle the fucking prisons, banks, and armies first.
We don't need to eat beef.
And banks have been instrumental in one of the largest rises in human living standards in history so dismantling them seems pretty cruel to those who don't yet live as well as we do.
We don’t need to eat beef.
probably not but it's really small potatoes compared to the systems that actively kill people instead of feeding them.
And banks have been instrumental in one of the largest rises in human living standards in history so dismantling them seems pretty cruel to those who don’t yet live as well as we do.
i don't see any reason we can't help people without banks.
Way easier to rail about billionaires online and feel snugly superior rather than actually doing the work.
did you try abstaining from beef? the meat industry grows every year. did you try abstaining from smartphones? sweatshops? air travel? your decisions made no difference.
I do abstain from beef. Which is difficult as hell as I rock weights at the gym and beef is incredibly protein efficient. But it's the least I can do. So I eat a boatload of chickpeas and chicken.
My smartphone is a shitty ancieng refurbished one as that's the most ethical I could find.
I haven't bought sweatshop clothes in years. So yeah, my fashion sucks as it's mostly thrift shop but I dont feel evil. (Though, my boxers are falling apart and it's getting kind of desperate. Sadly, because other people don't give a shit there are very few ethical underwear options.) Similarly, every piece of non electric furniture in my place is second hand, except for my bed frame.
Gave up on cars more than a decade ago. Finally got a second hand one but bike, bus and train almost everywhere.
I've taken a 30 - 40% pay cut to work in the non profit sector. Which makes it unlikely I'll ever buy a house but my work helps put kids through school.
My individual decisions don't make a difference but it's like voting. If others lived similarly, the world would be significantly better. We can all do better, it's just harder than whining about billionaires online.
whining about billionaires online
is just as effective. if you want to change things that are wrong, you need to go to where they are and stop them.
Why are Americans eating so much beef?
Advertising, paid for by the rich.
Subsidization, this would have been lobbied for by the rich.
Health advice. Being British, if I told my doctor I ate beef daily they'd strongly advice against my daily beef eating. In America health care is a for profit system, its not profitable to have healthy citizens.
There's probably a bunch more but case and point the issue is out of the hands of most working class American's.
You think that there aren't people who might need a Smartphone for work or medical emergencies? That is a non-zero number, so no. However should we have everyone's base needs met before others get past a certain point before luxury goods? Yes. Should we be able to do that now AND have luxury goods? Also Yes. Is it alright for people to have a Billion Dollars before that? Definitely No.
Weird gotcha. What is this the early 2000s when smartphones were rich people toys?
Late 80s !
Globally, they still are. Almost half the world doesn't have one. And children still lose their limbs mining the cobalt etc.
I guess the question could be better phrased as "and what are you personally giving up to ensure that as many people as possible are fed?"
Yea I assumed that your main point was some kind of sacrifice, not the smartphones themselves. If it weren't for the smartphones you'd be phrasing your gotcha around TVs, or washing machines, or fridges, or indoor plumbing. I've seen this very conservative argument before.
Progressivism and leftism aren't some kind of ascetic christianity and nobody needs a morality preacher. Social progress is not about individual morality. And it's not a zero sum game either.
There is enough food production and wealth in the world to eliminate hunger and extreme poverty already. I could be a selfish asshole not willing to part with my sneaker collection and that would still be the case.
Maybe there is a future where carrying around a smartphone isn't necessary because we've rebuilt human connection in communities. The damn things are addictive misery machines under capitalism anyway. But that's very different from going around wagging the finger at people that say "we could feed the hungry".
Indoor plumbing has actually done wonders in the developing world.
It's weird though, when the argument is billionaires should give up their stuff, that's fine but when it's we who might have to make sacrifices, that's morality preaching? Seems incredibly conveniently selective.
I get that no one likes thinking of themselves as complicit but that seems a pretty poor foundation for ideology.
Nobody is talking about billionaires "giving up their stuff" or making a "sacrifice". This is about wresting ownership of the means of production away from the capitalists. I don't know exactly what you mean by "complicity" in this particular discussion, you'll have to clarify.
However also, for many many people smartphones are their only way to access the internet, and it's the primary device for computing in poorer nations I believe
If there's one "essential" electronic device these days, it's the smartphone.
Yeah not as much in the rich world.
There are some folks sure but for the majority of people wasting time on Lemmy, I doubt that's the case. And yes, we can make up a heartbreaking example and just as easily I could point to a billionaire like Bill Gates who has done more to improve the world than most governments achieve. Or, as much as I dislike him, Elon Musk or more accurately, Statlink, without which Kyiev would have fallen months, maybe years ago.
The point though is that it's super easy to rail about billionaires but in reality serious change comes from the people. We're the ones who make sweatshops a thing, who eat so much beef that it's a huge contributor to global warning, who fly and drive everywhere for vacations etc. But that would take self reflection and maybe cause an ounce od shame so instead, "boooo billionaires."
Or any matter of things on a global scale instead of national.
I'm a citizen of the Earth before I'm the citizen of any Nation, but it's hard to remember that.
This probably does apply to smart phones, TV, consumer computers. Its hard to look at socialism and answer the question of what would it look like but at a guess: planned obsolescence would be out the window. No one is upgrading to an ai powered refrigerator because their old one is broke. No one is buying the newest smart phone because they're older model died(Hyperbole), Yet we live in a system of yearly releases of similar tech that we mindlessly consume. This consumption is a by product of the capitalist system. Purely manufactured to make money.
So in my imagined full communist world. We have phone. Phones that last longer, they are geared to be easily upgraded, dissembleable and actually future proofed unlike what we have now.
Does this also apply to say, smartphones?
There's quite a chasm between a $100 million boat and a $100 device...
Somehow, all these pleas on behalf of the downtrodden never include us actually making any sacrifices or change, just the rich.
Weird how it's easy to agitate for change when it involves zero sacrifice on your part.
Ok... if i give up my phone, i feed a family for a week. If bezo gives up a yacht, he feeds 1,000 familes for life. See the problem here?
Except there are many more non billionaires than billionaires. There are some 750ish billionaires in the US.
Median American has a net worth of about 200k. So, 5,000 median Americans gets you about a billion.
Divide the American population (~333 million) and lo and behold, worth about 66,666 billionaires.
So, in other words, blaming billionaires is easy but really...
Yes, which is why step taxation was implemented... the richer you are the more you're expected to return back to society.
Yes and the billionaires, while still having loopholes, still give back way more to society than we do.
Unsure what point you're trying to make.
What they give back is miniscule in what they take.
What is the point you're trying to make?
There are many more non billionaires than billionaires. There are some 750ish billionaires in the US.
Median American has a net worth of about 200k. So, 5,000 median Americans gets you about a billion.
Divide the American population (~333 million) and lo and behold, worth about 66,666 billionaires.
So, in other words, blaming billionaires is easy but really...
Did you just repeat your comment? Maybe you should get your handler to spend more money on your LLM model.
That's bullshit. Same argument corporations try to push on us about climate change. Fish rots from the head down. Obviously there will be sacrifices we have to make. But to preach "what will YOU be giving up, huh??" when megacorps and gazillionaires hoard literal mountains of wealth to the detriment of the planet and all others while they purposely stand in the way of any progress or change that might affect their bottom line? Bootlicking at worst, misguided liberal soapbox bullshit at best.
Lol, I love "bootlicking" on Lemmy, as far as I can tell it's used the same way trump uses rigged, that is to say "I don't like it!"
I mean, on climate change, farming is one of the biggest contributors and as fat as the fat cats are, the 333 million non billionaire Americans eat a boatload more beef than the 750ish billionaires. Meanwhile, in terms of say, children losing their limbs mining the cobalt for our phones, the 333 million are way more responsible. Same story for sweatshops. Same for air travel, oil consumption etc.
But man, actual change on our part would be hard. Way easier to rail about billionaires online and feel snugly superior rather than actually doing the work.
Oh wow has Lemmy gotten big enough that now people bring it up in every comeback post the way people do with Reddit? Awesome. That's gonna so fun.
Call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is that you complaining about Americans eating beef will change nothing, while enacting policies punishing the corporations producing the bulk the waste on Earth will. But hey, I'll bite, I don't eat meat, and I don't drive a car, since I work from home. So what else should I do to make you happy? Not have a smartphone, because smartphone bad? I've had the same one since high school, but sure, I'll stop using that too. Now, what? Absolutely jack shit. I'm not feeling "snugly superior". What I'm feeling is tired of randos, probably in my own damn tax bracket, defending the corporations and billionaires literally producing everything being consumed. Good luck convincing those 333 million Americans you googled to stop eating meat and dairy, which they have been convinced is necessary to live due to misinformation campaigns. Good luck convincing them driving the cars that those companies have and continue to lobby infrastructure for. Good luck convincing each and every single individual to basically halt their entire life as it currently is, one by one. Those Americans who have a very rich history of listening to others. That will be much, MUCH easier than targeting the corporations, and DEFINITELY much more effective.
You came to try to shame me and apparently all of America for refusing to do the work, because you interpreted me saying "corporations and billionaires are a bigger problem" (because they are) as "we shouldn't take any individual responsibility". But I'm the one being snugly superior lmao. Dunno why, but this is always argument people with your viewpoint make. Nobody said we shouldn't take individual responsibility. On the contrary, I think we should all stop driving cars, and cut back on the insanely bloated levels of consumption in this country, alone. But I can only do so much. I can't do shit about what you or every other person in this country is doing. And when people call for changes, especially involving policies for the some of the biggest polluters on the planet in a country whose politicians frequently block any such change, sauntering into the room and going "oh wow but you have a phone lol" doesn't amount to anything but bootlicking. Because you're not advocating for anything; nobody is arguing against personal responsibility. But when will it be their responsibility? They didn't ask for your help, and they certainly don't need it. So if it ain't bootlicking, it's just fucking pointless.
I literally have no idea what you're trying to say.
I figured.
all of agriculture makes up about 20% of our ghg emissions.
Which is pretty huge and mostly discretionary.
we need to eat. lets dismantle the fucking prisons, banks, and armies first.
We don't need to eat beef.
And banks have been instrumental in one of the largest rises in human living standards in history so dismantling them seems pretty cruel to those who don't yet live as well as we do.
probably not but it's really small potatoes compared to the systems that actively kill people instead of feeding them.
i don't see any reason we can't help people without banks.
did you try abstaining from beef? the meat industry grows every year. did you try abstaining from smartphones? sweatshops? air travel? your decisions made no difference.
I do abstain from beef. Which is difficult as hell as I rock weights at the gym and beef is incredibly protein efficient. But it's the least I can do. So I eat a boatload of chickpeas and chicken.
My smartphone is a shitty ancieng refurbished one as that's the most ethical I could find.
I haven't bought sweatshop clothes in years. So yeah, my fashion sucks as it's mostly thrift shop but I dont feel evil. (Though, my boxers are falling apart and it's getting kind of desperate. Sadly, because other people don't give a shit there are very few ethical underwear options.) Similarly, every piece of non electric furniture in my place is second hand, except for my bed frame.
Gave up on cars more than a decade ago. Finally got a second hand one but bike, bus and train almost everywhere.
I've taken a 30 - 40% pay cut to work in the non profit sector. Which makes it unlikely I'll ever buy a house but my work helps put kids through school.
My individual decisions don't make a difference but it's like voting. If others lived similarly, the world would be significantly better. We can all do better, it's just harder than whining about billionaires online.
is just as effective. if you want to change things that are wrong, you need to go to where they are and stop them.
Why are Americans eating so much beef?
Advertising, paid for by the rich.
Subsidization, this would have been lobbied for by the rich.
Health advice. Being British, if I told my doctor I ate beef daily they'd strongly advice against my daily beef eating. In America health care is a for profit system, its not profitable to have healthy citizens.
There's probably a bunch more but case and point the issue is out of the hands of most working class American's.
You think that there aren't people who might need a Smartphone for work or medical emergencies? That is a non-zero number, so no. However should we have everyone's base needs met before others get past a certain point before luxury goods? Yes. Should we be able to do that now AND have luxury goods? Also Yes. Is it alright for people to have a Billion Dollars before that? Definitely No.
Weird gotcha. What is this the early 2000s when smartphones were rich people toys?
Late 80s !
Globally, they still are. Almost half the world doesn't have one. And children still lose their limbs mining the cobalt etc.
I guess the question could be better phrased as "and what are you personally giving up to ensure that as many people as possible are fed?"
Yea I assumed that your main point was some kind of sacrifice, not the smartphones themselves. If it weren't for the smartphones you'd be phrasing your gotcha around TVs, or washing machines, or fridges, or indoor plumbing. I've seen this very conservative argument before.
Progressivism and leftism aren't some kind of ascetic christianity and nobody needs a morality preacher. Social progress is not about individual morality. And it's not a zero sum game either.
There is enough food production and wealth in the world to eliminate hunger and extreme poverty already. I could be a selfish asshole not willing to part with my sneaker collection and that would still be the case.
Maybe there is a future where carrying around a smartphone isn't necessary because we've rebuilt human connection in communities. The damn things are addictive misery machines under capitalism anyway. But that's very different from going around wagging the finger at people that say "we could feed the hungry".
Indoor plumbing has actually done wonders in the developing world.
It's weird though, when the argument is billionaires should give up their stuff, that's fine but when it's we who might have to make sacrifices, that's morality preaching? Seems incredibly conveniently selective.
I get that no one likes thinking of themselves as complicit but that seems a pretty poor foundation for ideology.
Nobody is talking about billionaires "giving up their stuff" or making a "sacrifice". This is about wresting ownership of the means of production away from the capitalists. I don't know exactly what you mean by "complicity" in this particular discussion, you'll have to clarify.
However also, for many many people smartphones are their only way to access the internet, and it's the primary device for computing in poorer nations I believe
If there's one "essential" electronic device these days, it's the smartphone.
Yeah not as much in the rich world.
There are some folks sure but for the majority of people wasting time on Lemmy, I doubt that's the case. And yes, we can make up a heartbreaking example and just as easily I could point to a billionaire like Bill Gates who has done more to improve the world than most governments achieve. Or, as much as I dislike him, Elon Musk or more accurately, Statlink, without which Kyiev would have fallen months, maybe years ago.
The point though is that it's super easy to rail about billionaires but in reality serious change comes from the people. We're the ones who make sweatshops a thing, who eat so much beef that it's a huge contributor to global warning, who fly and drive everywhere for vacations etc. But that would take self reflection and maybe cause an ounce od shame so instead, "boooo billionaires."
Or any matter of things on a global scale instead of national.
I'm a citizen of the Earth before I'm the citizen of any Nation, but it's hard to remember that.
This probably does apply to smart phones, TV, consumer computers. Its hard to look at socialism and answer the question of what would it look like but at a guess: planned obsolescence would be out the window. No one is upgrading to an ai powered refrigerator because their old one is broke. No one is buying the newest smart phone because they're older model died(Hyperbole), Yet we live in a system of yearly releases of similar tech that we mindlessly consume. This consumption is a by product of the capitalist system. Purely manufactured to make money.
So in my imagined full communist world. We have phone. Phones that last longer, they are geared to be easily upgraded, dissembleable and actually future proofed unlike what we have now.