Ukraine using publicly available camera Drones to drop grenades on russian invaders?
Bravo Ukraine! Very creative self-defending!!
Mossad putting explosives in items terrorists ordered to specifically to coordinate their terrorrism?
Booh! Not allowed, bad Israel!!
I don't think they're talking about buying something normal and turning it into a weapon. But buying something normal and getting a weapon instead.
And also, the drone allows you to pick your target.
You don’t know who’s holding or near the walkie talkie.
I’m not for or against it, I don’t feel qualified to make a judgement, but I can see the differences.
Exactly. If your drone shows children and you still Boom, you've chosen to commit a war crime. But with this plus the indiscriminate bombing of humanitarian centers in Gaza, it's all war crimes all day every day. The numbers of dead children are exponentially higher than the numbers of dead Hamas, and once the critically injured innocents in Lebanon die the same may be true for Hezbollah.
You do know that Israel is not fighting against an invading force, right? That might be a slight difference when it comes to morality.
Men with tactical coordination, trained and armed with automatic weapons, crossed an internationally recognized border by land, sea, and air. They launched thousands of ballistic missiles, killed, captured and held territory, and have repeatedly given assurances that they will do the same again and again.
If that's not an invasion then we are just arguing semantics.
I think you missed an important qualifier in the statement you're responding to. I feel if you reread the statement you'd find you're probably both on the same page of this book.
I can't tell if you're talking about Israel...
Hamas invaded Israel last October 7 by land, sea, and air. They captured territory, however briefly. Hezbollah has been a part of the military campaign against Israel since Oct 8, weeks before Israeli troops entered Gaza (Oct 27). 60,000 Israelis have been displaced by Hezbollah attacks, and dozens killed or injured.
You do realize Hezbollah even having possession of those rockets was in violation of UN resolutions. The fact they've been launching them for nearly a year now is also a violation. Israel's actions here are far more justifiable than Gaza.
That is in no way relevant to my point. Let me know when Hezbollah invades Israel.
Hezbollah has invaded Israel's space with their rockets
That is not an invasion and you know it.
They've been bombing Israel for nearly a year - since Oct 8, well before Israel went into Gaza. Actually, even before Israel completely recaptured the areas captured by Hamas in southern Israel.
What choice does Israel have other than to give up on 60,000 of their own citizens permanently displaced by Hezbollah?
I think they have a choice to not use exploding pagers regardless of any bombing.
Also, their citizens are almost never even at risk of being injured by those bombs, unlike what happened in Lebanon.
You've only described an inaction as Israel's choice. Do you believe Israel should do nothing? Or do you believe that this attack was particularly egregious? The question stands. What choice of action does Israel have?
By all accounts, this was an incredibly precise attack, harming thousands of terrorists and very few civilians who likely chose knowingly to be in the immediate vicinity of terrorists. It has caused a major interruption in their ability to coordinate future terror attacks.
I believe this attack is particularly egregious.
By all accounts, this was an incredibly precise attack, harming thousands of terrorists and very few civilians who likely chose knowingly to be in the immediate vicinity of terrorists.
That is absolutely not what I read. Furthermore, it is not a crime to live near bad people and expecting people to just leave their homes, which may have been in their family for generations, because of who their neighbors are is unreasonable. On top of that, how could they have possibly guaranteed every person with an exploding pager would be away from innocent people?
It also normalizes this sort of attack. That is not a good thing for the world.
The explosives were small enough to - by design - harm the bearer of the terrorist network communication device without having a large scale area effect. I understand that this is a civilian device in the strictest sense. However, they were purchased by a terror organization actively conducting international terror attacks. They were distributed for the exclusive use by members of the terrorist group to conduct official communications.
I don't live in Lebanon so I don't know what civilian life is like there. I do live in an area with significant cartel presence. People know when they are in a cartel area, where they are safe, and when they are at greater risk. No, it is not a crime to live and operate near cartel members. It is a calculated risk that some people are willing to take, while others are not. It is certainly a tragedy that any civilians would be harmed. It is also naive to assume that it was not a known risk for many of them.
I haven't been able to find any reporting on precise numbers, but please share. I may well be mistaken. My understanding is that the civilian casualties in this attack were one per hundreds or even a thousand. If there were more civilians harmed than terrorists, that would certainly change my perspective.
Amnesty says:
injured more than 2,931 people and killed at least 37, including at least four civilians
Also:
Amnesty International’s Evidence Lab analyzed 12 videos showing the pagers exploding in crowded civilian areas, such as residential streets and grocery stores, as well as in people’s homes. A verified video of the skyline of Beirut show large smoke plums over at least 10 locations in residential areas.
There is simply no excuse for executing this operation while those pagers are in places like grocery stores.
I appreciate you sharing this. It looks like it doesn't really answer the question, unfortunately. As I've said, any civilian casualties are a tragedy. They're also an inevitability of war. Amnesty has identified four deaths, and about a dozen out of several thousand detonations that endangered civilians. If that is the extent of civilian endangerment, it seems remarkably precise for this type of war. I'm pretty sure if they tried to do the same with ground troops or air strikes, the civilian casualties would have been much higher.
Yeah right...
Ukraine using publicly available camera Drones to drop grenades on russian invaders?
Bravo Ukraine! Very creative self-defending!!
Mossad putting explosives in items terrorists ordered to specifically to coordinate their terrorrism?
Booh! Not allowed, bad Israel!!
I don't think they're talking about buying something normal and turning it into a weapon. But buying something normal and getting a weapon instead.
And also, the drone allows you to pick your target.
You don’t know who’s holding or near the walkie talkie.
I’m not for or against it, I don’t feel qualified to make a judgement, but I can see the differences.
Exactly. If your drone shows children and you still Boom, you've chosen to commit a war crime. But with this plus the indiscriminate bombing of humanitarian centers in Gaza, it's all war crimes all day every day. The numbers of dead children are exponentially higher than the numbers of dead Hamas, and once the critically injured innocents in Lebanon die the same may be true for Hezbollah.
You do know that Israel is not fighting against an invading force, right? That might be a slight difference when it comes to morality.
Men with tactical coordination, trained and armed with automatic weapons, crossed an internationally recognized border by land, sea, and air. They launched thousands of ballistic missiles, killed, captured and held territory, and have repeatedly given assurances that they will do the same again and again.
If that's not an invasion then we are just arguing semantics.
I think you missed an important qualifier in the statement you're responding to. I feel if you reread the statement you'd find you're probably both on the same page of this book.
I can't tell if you're talking about Israel...
Hamas invaded Israel last October 7 by land, sea, and air. They captured territory, however briefly. Hezbollah has been a part of the military campaign against Israel since Oct 8, weeks before Israeli troops entered Gaza (Oct 27). 60,000 Israelis have been displaced by Hezbollah attacks, and dozens killed or injured.
You do realize Hezbollah even having possession of those rockets was in violation of UN resolutions. The fact they've been launching them for nearly a year now is also a violation. Israel's actions here are far more justifiable than Gaza.
That is in no way relevant to my point. Let me know when Hezbollah invades Israel.
Hezbollah has invaded Israel's space with their rockets
That is not an invasion and you know it.
They've been bombing Israel for nearly a year - since Oct 8, well before Israel went into Gaza. Actually, even before Israel completely recaptured the areas captured by Hamas in southern Israel.
What choice does Israel have other than to give up on 60,000 of their own citizens permanently displaced by Hezbollah?
I think they have a choice to not use exploding pagers regardless of any bombing.
Also, their citizens are almost never even at risk of being injured by those bombs, unlike what happened in Lebanon.
You've only described an inaction as Israel's choice. Do you believe Israel should do nothing? Or do you believe that this attack was particularly egregious? The question stands. What choice of action does Israel have?
By all accounts, this was an incredibly precise attack, harming thousands of terrorists and very few civilians who likely chose knowingly to be in the immediate vicinity of terrorists. It has caused a major interruption in their ability to coordinate future terror attacks.
I believe this attack is particularly egregious.
That is absolutely not what I read. Furthermore, it is not a crime to live near bad people and expecting people to just leave their homes, which may have been in their family for generations, because of who their neighbors are is unreasonable. On top of that, how could they have possibly guaranteed every person with an exploding pager would be away from innocent people?
It also normalizes this sort of attack. That is not a good thing for the world.
The explosives were small enough to - by design - harm the bearer of the terrorist network communication device without having a large scale area effect. I understand that this is a civilian device in the strictest sense. However, they were purchased by a terror organization actively conducting international terror attacks. They were distributed for the exclusive use by members of the terrorist group to conduct official communications.
I don't live in Lebanon so I don't know what civilian life is like there. I do live in an area with significant cartel presence. People know when they are in a cartel area, where they are safe, and when they are at greater risk. No, it is not a crime to live and operate near cartel members. It is a calculated risk that some people are willing to take, while others are not. It is certainly a tragedy that any civilians would be harmed. It is also naive to assume that it was not a known risk for many of them.
I haven't been able to find any reporting on precise numbers, but please share. I may well be mistaken. My understanding is that the civilian casualties in this attack were one per hundreds or even a thousand. If there were more civilians harmed than terrorists, that would certainly change my perspective.
Amnesty says:
Also:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/09/lebanon-establish-international-investigation-into-deadly-attacks-using-exploding-portable-devices/
There is simply no excuse for executing this operation while those pagers are in places like grocery stores.
I appreciate you sharing this. It looks like it doesn't really answer the question, unfortunately. As I've said, any civilian casualties are a tragedy. They're also an inevitability of war. Amnesty has identified four deaths, and about a dozen out of several thousand detonations that endangered civilians. If that is the extent of civilian endangerment, it seems remarkably precise for this type of war. I'm pretty sure if they tried to do the same with ground troops or air strikes, the civilian casualties would have been much higher.
Oh goody, more genocide apologist scum to block!
Israelis are the terrorists.