Nobody but your boss has to give you the pay you deserve
You're not wrong, but anyone who leaves shit like this or the stupid church dollars as a tip is a special kind of asshole.
Who the fuck is downvoting this?
14 people
You're not wrong.
But they also didn't answer the question. They said how many, not who.
Restaurant owners
Servers making bank.
If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to eat out or order delivery. Just because the tip system is a terrible system doesn't mean you have an excuse to fuck over the victims of it.
Until there's a national strike on tipping that could lead thousands of tip reliant workers to quit (like the writers strike), be a decent person and have some sympathy. Instead of eating out and not tipping, don't eat out. The restaurant gets the same amount of money whether you tip or not, I guarantee they don't give a shit.
I have sympathy for underpaid workers. But I don't think I'll change my tipping attitude just because you said such and such. Actually your commands sound a bit condescending.
I wanted to highlight
Instead of eating out and not tipping, don’t eat out. The restaurant gets the same amount of money whether you tip or not, I guarantee they don’t give a shit.
This isn't a "just said", it's a fact. Not tipping isn't a protest, it's a self-imposed discount at the expense of the worker. The business owner makes exactly the same money, the only one who suffers is the underpaid worker.
I disagree.
My business transaction is with the restaurant owner, not the staff. The price I see on the bill is the price I am required to pay. Anything extra is not obligatory, no matter how engrained it is in the US and Canada.
Guilting patrons into subsidizing poor wages only enriches the restaurant owner.
Did you not read what I said? The restaurant owner is equally enriched whether or not you tip. Tipping is factored into the menu price; if tipping was not expected, the menu price would be higher to cover appropriate wages.
If you disagree with the system, limit your patronage to establishments that don't utilize tipping and pay appropriate wages. By not tipping, you are exploiting the system at the expense of the worker; I repeat, the restaurant owner is equally enriched, only the worker suffers when you exploit the expectation of a tip to provide yourself a price lower than would be available if the system was not predicted on tipping.
Are all patrons the Monopoly Man? No.
So stop trying to shame people for having a little enjoyment in their lives.
We both want the same thing: better, thriving wages for people doing an honest day’s work.
Tipping ‘culture’ has gone too far. We all agree.
It doesn’t mean not going out for special occasions because of a flawed system.
If by "enjoyment" you mean having someone wait on you at a restaurant, I'm not shaming people for having enjoyment, just for taking it without paying. Same way I'd shame them for any other form of enjoyment at the expense of others.
There are restaurants that explicitly inform their customers that they pay their staff a higher wage and tipping is not expected. If you don't want to tip and still want your enjoyment, eat at those establishments shame-free.
If you disagree with tipping culture and want to incentivize business owners to pay their workers a thriving wage for their hard work, then stop spending money on establishments that utilize tipping, encourage your friends to do the same, and write the business owners to tell them why. Another shame-free option.
If you go to an establishment where tipping is expected (and menu prices are therefore lower) but choose not to tip, then:
The business owner benefits by making the same money they would have if you had tipped, no incentive to change
You benefit from a lower price
The server works just as hard, but now does not get honesty compensation.
This does not incentive the owner to raise wages. You are exploiting the expectation of a tip that set the low menu prices. If you honestly wanted the server to make a thriving wage, your options are to pay that wage yourself or go to an establishment that does (and consequentially has higher prices to cover this higher wage).
Yes, you should be shamed. There's no excuse for enjoyment via exploitating others.
Candy being enjoyable doesn't entitle you to steal it if you can't afford it. Not agreeing with "candy pricing" culture doesn't excuse it.
I don't care if your doctor or your barber or your banker gives you candy for free, that doesn't entitle you to take it for free from the store. Taking something without paying is theft. Labor is no different. If you can't afford it, go to a restaurant that doesn't use it.
Again, the business transaction is between the patron and the restaurant owner. The employee’s wages are not the responsibility of the patron. They are the responsibility of the owner.
You’re saying “…just for taking it without paying.”
However, I am paying. When the bill comes, it is a full account of what the restaurant charges me. End of story.
Edit:
No amount of mental gymnastics will change the fact that the restaurant owner is solely responsible for employee wages.
Everything else is social shaming.
You're right, your contract is with the business. If you don't want a separate transaction for your server, then just be honest about it.
I do assume you are being honest, and telling your server at the beginning of the meal that you don't tip, right? Surely you're not waiting until after they've given you the customary service to withhold the customary payment, right? That would certainly be shameful indeed, and undercut your desire for them to receive thriving pay for honest work.
No? Because a tip should never be expected.
It can and is appreciated, but if it’s to be expected then I expect it to be included in the pricing of the meal, not as a separate “worker welfare” line item.
Then there's no harm in revealing that fact ahead of time. Just let them know not to expect a tip and enjoy your meal shame-free.
I can tell you, as I'm sure you know, that tipping is expected, even if it isn't legally enforced. If you truly believe in honest pay for honest work, then be honest about the fact that you will not be subsidizing their pay and relieve them of that conventional expectation. If you're being honest with yourself, you should have no problem with that, right?
Again you’re expecting the patron to contort themselves through the social custom, instead of simply not participating in it.
You seem to have this assumption that patrons expect and deserve a personal slave while dining. Maybe it’s an American and Canadian thing.
I hope you eventually find how freeing it is to not give a shit about what others say or think and just enjoy your meal, pay for it, and be on your merry way.
Seems like you're being deliberately dense, simply to maintain your held opinion. The restaurant owner SHOULD be responsible for employee wages, but they're not... hence the entire issue with the US tipping system. And no amount of mental gymnastics will change the fact that you're incentivizing the owners to never change, by holding fast to your opinion
...but they should feed me while I do nothing to help them, instead I'll be here actively enriching the people exploiting their labor.
"But I don't think I'll change my tipping attitude just because you said such and such."
I'm sure that sounded cool in concept, but basically all this says is that you find the idea of changing your mind due to dialog silly. How sad.
"Actually your commands sound a bit condescending"
Oh wow, I hope my analysis doesn't come across like that. You might stop tipping - oh, wait...
All good points. But since tipping is supporting this broken system, and not tipping seems to be worse, what do you suggest then?
I could just not go out, sure. Just stay out of it. If enough people do that, this wil lead to less customers, more employers closing their business, more employers loosing the job they couldn't afford to quit. I don't see how that helps either.
If you can't afford to live without tips, don't volunteer to become a potential victim of a terrible system.
If it wasn't so depressing I might find it funny you think people work in bad environments because they want to.
Minimum wage is not a livable wage, I shouldn't have to tell you this. Your arrogance is genuinely disgusting.
And I find the arrogance of telling people if they can't afford to tip, they shouldn't eat out disgusting. If they can afford it and are just being cheap, that's one thing, but you don't get to act all morally superior while being arrogant the other direction.
If you can't afford something you shouldn't buy it. Just because you don't agree with the system doesn't mean you get to ignore it and then justify it by taking a moral high ground.
You know the servers wages are dependent on tips and you choose not to pay them. THAT is the social contract. Whether you agree with it or not.
If you cared about changing the system you'd take steps to change it without screwing the workers. You're just being cheap.
I tip. But there's a difference between "I know the system is terrible, but I rely on tips and would really appreciate it if you're able" and "Don't go out if you can't afford to tip." The second is arrogant and condescending. Not being an asshole goes both ways.
No. It's not. Don't go somewhere you can't afford (including the tip) is not arrogant.
I see what you mean, but I'm not the one fucking over the employees.
On the short term you are right, but as long as customers keeps tipping, the system works well enough for nothing to change.
The more people stops tipping, the closer we get to change.
And I'm sorry that the change will hurt the employees, but it's not my battle. And tipping does not support the employees battle, just this days income.
Tell me another way I can support their battle, and I'll listen.
(I tip when the employees seems to rely on it, or if I feel extraordinarily well serviced.)
Right, lemme just go on a hunger strike to should stop the most predatory Capitalists in existence /s
Are you incapable of feeding yourself?
You do know there are many places to get food without table service, right?
Nobody but your boss has to give you the pay you deserve
You're not wrong, but anyone who leaves shit like this or the stupid church dollars as a tip is a special kind of asshole.
Who the fuck is downvoting this?
14 people
You're not wrong.
But they also didn't answer the question. They said how many, not who.
Restaurant owners
Servers making bank.
If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to eat out or order delivery. Just because the tip system is a terrible system doesn't mean you have an excuse to fuck over the victims of it.
Until there's a national strike on tipping that could lead thousands of tip reliant workers to quit (like the writers strike), be a decent person and have some sympathy. Instead of eating out and not tipping, don't eat out. The restaurant gets the same amount of money whether you tip or not, I guarantee they don't give a shit.
I have sympathy for underpaid workers. But I don't think I'll change my tipping attitude just because you said such and such. Actually your commands sound a bit condescending.
I wanted to highlight
This isn't a "just said", it's a fact. Not tipping isn't a protest, it's a self-imposed discount at the expense of the worker. The business owner makes exactly the same money, the only one who suffers is the underpaid worker.
I disagree. My business transaction is with the restaurant owner, not the staff. The price I see on the bill is the price I am required to pay. Anything extra is not obligatory, no matter how engrained it is in the US and Canada. Guilting patrons into subsidizing poor wages only enriches the restaurant owner.
Did you not read what I said? The restaurant owner is equally enriched whether or not you tip. Tipping is factored into the menu price; if tipping was not expected, the menu price would be higher to cover appropriate wages.
If you disagree with the system, limit your patronage to establishments that don't utilize tipping and pay appropriate wages. By not tipping, you are exploiting the system at the expense of the worker; I repeat, the restaurant owner is equally enriched, only the worker suffers when you exploit the expectation of a tip to provide yourself a price lower than would be available if the system was not predicted on tipping.
Are all patrons the Monopoly Man? No. So stop trying to shame people for having a little enjoyment in their lives.
We both want the same thing: better, thriving wages for people doing an honest day’s work.
Tipping ‘culture’ has gone too far. We all agree. It doesn’t mean not going out for special occasions because of a flawed system.
If by "enjoyment" you mean having someone wait on you at a restaurant, I'm not shaming people for having enjoyment, just for taking it without paying. Same way I'd shame them for any other form of enjoyment at the expense of others.
There are restaurants that explicitly inform their customers that they pay their staff a higher wage and tipping is not expected. If you don't want to tip and still want your enjoyment, eat at those establishments shame-free.
If you disagree with tipping culture and want to incentivize business owners to pay their workers a thriving wage for their hard work, then stop spending money on establishments that utilize tipping, encourage your friends to do the same, and write the business owners to tell them why. Another shame-free option.
If you go to an establishment where tipping is expected (and menu prices are therefore lower) but choose not to tip, then:
This does not incentive the owner to raise wages. You are exploiting the expectation of a tip that set the low menu prices. If you honestly wanted the server to make a thriving wage, your options are to pay that wage yourself or go to an establishment that does (and consequentially has higher prices to cover this higher wage).
Yes, you should be shamed. There's no excuse for enjoyment via exploitating others.
Candy being enjoyable doesn't entitle you to steal it if you can't afford it. Not agreeing with "candy pricing" culture doesn't excuse it.
I don't care if your doctor or your barber or your banker gives you candy for free, that doesn't entitle you to take it for free from the store. Taking something without paying is theft. Labor is no different. If you can't afford it, go to a restaurant that doesn't use it.
Again, the business transaction is between the patron and the restaurant owner. The employee’s wages are not the responsibility of the patron. They are the responsibility of the owner.
You’re saying “…just for taking it without paying.” However, I am paying. When the bill comes, it is a full account of what the restaurant charges me. End of story.
Edit: No amount of mental gymnastics will change the fact that the restaurant owner is solely responsible for employee wages. Everything else is social shaming.
You're right, your contract is with the business. If you don't want a separate transaction for your server, then just be honest about it.
I do assume you are being honest, and telling your server at the beginning of the meal that you don't tip, right? Surely you're not waiting until after they've given you the customary service to withhold the customary payment, right? That would certainly be shameful indeed, and undercut your desire for them to receive thriving pay for honest work.
No? Because a tip should never be expected. It can and is appreciated, but if it’s to be expected then I expect it to be included in the pricing of the meal, not as a separate “worker welfare” line item.
Then there's no harm in revealing that fact ahead of time. Just let them know not to expect a tip and enjoy your meal shame-free.
I can tell you, as I'm sure you know, that tipping is expected, even if it isn't legally enforced. If you truly believe in honest pay for honest work, then be honest about the fact that you will not be subsidizing their pay and relieve them of that conventional expectation. If you're being honest with yourself, you should have no problem with that, right?
Again you’re expecting the patron to contort themselves through the social custom, instead of simply not participating in it. You seem to have this assumption that patrons expect and deserve a personal slave while dining. Maybe it’s an American and Canadian thing.
I hope you eventually find how freeing it is to not give a shit about what others say or think and just enjoy your meal, pay for it, and be on your merry way.
Seems like you're being deliberately dense, simply to maintain your held opinion. The restaurant owner SHOULD be responsible for employee wages, but they're not... hence the entire issue with the US tipping system. And no amount of mental gymnastics will change the fact that you're incentivizing the owners to never change, by holding fast to your opinion
"I have sympathy for underpaid workers."
...but they should feed me while I do nothing to help them, instead I'll be here actively enriching the people exploiting their labor.
"But I don't think I'll change my tipping attitude just because you said such and such."
I'm sure that sounded cool in concept, but basically all this says is that you find the idea of changing your mind due to dialog silly. How sad.
"Actually your commands sound a bit condescending"
Oh wow, I hope my analysis doesn't come across like that. You might stop tipping - oh, wait...
All good points. But since tipping is supporting this broken system, and not tipping seems to be worse, what do you suggest then?
I could just not go out, sure. Just stay out of it. If enough people do that, this wil lead to less customers, more employers closing their business, more employers loosing the job they couldn't afford to quit. I don't see how that helps either.
So I'm listening. What do you suggest?
If you can't afford to live without tips, don't volunteer to become a potential victim of a terrible system.
If it wasn't so depressing I might find it funny you think people work in bad environments because they want to.
Minimum wage is not a livable wage, I shouldn't have to tell you this. Your arrogance is genuinely disgusting.
And I find the arrogance of telling people if they can't afford to tip, they shouldn't eat out disgusting. If they can afford it and are just being cheap, that's one thing, but you don't get to act all morally superior while being arrogant the other direction.
If you can't afford something you shouldn't buy it. Just because you don't agree with the system doesn't mean you get to ignore it and then justify it by taking a moral high ground.
You know the servers wages are dependent on tips and you choose not to pay them. THAT is the social contract. Whether you agree with it or not.
If you cared about changing the system you'd take steps to change it without screwing the workers. You're just being cheap.
I tip. But there's a difference between "I know the system is terrible, but I rely on tips and would really appreciate it if you're able" and "Don't go out if you can't afford to tip." The second is arrogant and condescending. Not being an asshole goes both ways.
No. It's not. Don't go somewhere you can't afford (including the tip) is not arrogant.
I see what you mean, but I'm not the one fucking over the employees.
On the short term you are right, but as long as customers keeps tipping, the system works well enough for nothing to change.
The more people stops tipping, the closer we get to change.
And I'm sorry that the change will hurt the employees, but it's not my battle. And tipping does not support the employees battle, just this days income.
Tell me another way I can support their battle, and I'll listen.
(I tip when the employees seems to rely on it, or if I feel extraordinarily well serviced.)
Right, lemme just go on a hunger strike to should stop the most predatory Capitalists in existence /s
Are you incapable of feeding yourself?
You do know there are many places to get food without table service, right?
That's actually inaccurate.
You can be charged for theft of service for refusing to tip someone. It's happened.
I’ll take Things That Never Happened for 100, Alex
And you would be, again, factually incorrect.
You’re welcome to provide a source. A cursory internet search for “theft of services tipping” yielded no results other than social shaming.
Narrator: They did not have a source.
Go ahead then, back it up. Share an article or something about it. Hell, share three of the same event.
Then it's not a tip, it's wages the customer is expected to pay.