Interesting. I am against the death penalty but even if the DNA comes back as not his, he is still eligible for the death penalty. Their debate is that the jury wouldn't have given him the death penalty.
It's Texas; they would have given him the death penalty. It's what they do down there.
Pro-Life™
What is the upside of keeping serial killers alive pray tell? I genuinely don’t get it.
How often people are wrongly convicted is the only reason I need to not want the death penalty to be used.
What is the upside of allowing the government to kill citizens?
I’m actually shocked the “limited small govt” crowd isn’t anti death penalty given it provides a legal avenue for state sanctioned murder.
Feels like they’d be against that sort of thing.
I’m actually shocked the “limited small govt” crowd isn’t anti death penalty
trust me a lot of them are
Idk what’s the upside of killing rabid dogs? Most dogs are better than most humans, so how does the math work out there?
thats a mercy killing. rabies is fatal and the end is horrible.
Rabies and psychopathy are diseases. The prognosis is terminal in both cases, and death would be a mercy. Rabies is also far less harmful than psychopathy, because it results in less collateral damage. After all, psychopathy is responsible for almost every evil you can see in the world today from famine to poverty and war.
Again, there is an argument against the death penalty but protecting psychopaths ain’t it.
No they are not both diseases. psychopathy is not caused by infection or is it communicable. They have no basis for comparison. Also do you know anything at all about rabies progression? Its about the worst disease you can have if you have gone passed the point of no return to treat it.
Not all diseases are communicable or infectious. Psychopathy is a serious neurological pathology that robs humans of anything resembling humanity. That makes it a hell of a lot worse than rabies to my mind, but of course that’s debatable. Regardless, I’m not sure how ranking one horrible affliction against another makes much difference for this analogy.
I can agree with that. Its just not a good analogy because again they are just not really comparable things.
Do you formulate your opinions based on reasons you can articulate or is this just a fleeting thought you’re having?
I already expressed it. rabies is a communicable disease. What most people think about with diseases. Diseases that can spread and cause an epidemic. Not like a genetic fault or from personal trauma. They are just not analogous. Or do you want to know about rabies in general from my earlier comment. Someone had a good writeup but I can't find it but this has it listed pretty well if it remains untreated and one dies from it. https://www.verywellhealth.com/rabies-symptoms-1298793#toc-acute-neurologic-period
After all, psychopathy is responsible for almost every evil you can see in the world today from famine to poverty and war.
I don't know, I think presuming you know the reasons and effects of things has led to some pretty harmful outcomes over the years.
You’re right, none of us know anything. We can presume no facts, nor make even the most salient observations. All social science is false, and nihilists like you are right about everything.
We can presume no facts, nor make even the most salient observations.
Individuals can, "collectives" cannot.
All social science is false
A lot of it
nihilists like you are right about everything.
I am not a nihilist.
I am not a nihilist.
Your words say one thing, but your other words say another.
I would not say there is specifically an upside to keeping a serial killer alive, but there are many downsides to the death penalty both ethically and in practice, not the least of which is the chance that you would execute an innocent person. For those of us who are anti-death penalty, that is usually where we’re coming from.
I’m against the death penalty, and I know the best argument against it, something nobody in this thread has even approximately articulated.
Currently, as far as I know, there is only one strong argument against the death penalty, and it has to do with moral proscriptions against treating the death of a person as a spectacle, which I notice nobody mentioned.
I don’t want someone to kill me; therefore I believe it is also not okay for me to kill someone else. It’s just the golden rule. I am not a student of ethics or philosophy but it seems pretty straightforward to me.
In the event that I were guilty of causing great harm to innocent people, then I should be killed. Not in revenge, but as a matter of course, given that my life would no longer be worth living.
This is the golden rule in action, which is about how you would want to be treated in similar circumstances.
it isn't a deterrent,
It is cheaper to let them rot in prison for life,
nobody wants to make the drugs involved for the 'humane way' so it is really difficult to obtain enough where it is used,
it is fundamentally inhumane to kill someone that knows it's coming (mental torture),
risk of executing an innocent, and as already stated
it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing.
it is fundamentally inhumane to kill someone that knows it's coming (mental torture)
That killing serial killers causes them harm isn’t a particularly compelling point, since we disagree over whether harming them is, in fact, good.
risk of executing an innocent
This is a good point and one I would explore further. However, it leaves open exceptions where the evidence is overwhelming.
it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing
Killing isn’t always bad. Killing innocent creatures is bad. Killing serial killers is tantamount to putting down rabid animals.
I’m against the death penalty,
So you're dishonest. Got it.
No, I am genuinely against the death penalty.
It’s important not to conflate moral facts with practical policy. Most of your arguments focus on how people should be treated, whereas the relevant question is how governments should behave and why. These are very different things.
Regardless of what people deserve, no government should go around killing its own citizens. That is because killing as a punishment makes a spectacle of death. It is profoundly unhealthy for any civil society to revel in death. That’s the answer. It has nothing to do with what serial killers deserve. They do not matter.
This is a good point and one I would explore further. However, it leaves open exceptions where the evidence is overwhelming.
And you trust the state to make that decision? Or a jury?
Killing serial killers is tantamount to putting down rabid animals.
A serial killer can be removed from society and prevented from having an opportunity to kill. “Putting him down” is just you stooping to his level out of misguided self-righteousness
A rabid animal is suffering from the final hours of a horrible communicable disease that is 100% fatal. It’s in horrible pain, out of its mind, and you are doing a mercy to end its misery
Listen, if you want to keep a psychopath alive in your basement for some unknown reason, well, as long as he doesn’t get out and maul anyone that’s fine by me. But you’re insane if you think normal people should spend their hard-earned money contributing to that exercise in immiseration.
Currently, as far as I know, there is only one strong argument against the death penalty, and it has to do with moral proscriptions against treating the death of a person as a spectacle, which I notice nobody mentioned.
Nah I think not killing innocent people is a pretty strong argument, death being a spectacle doesn't really matter to me- someone killing someone is much worse than the part where they post it on LiveLeak
If you’re so against killing innocents, I assume you’re vegan. Or… is your morality as twisted and inconsistent as I suspect?
Or I care about human life and not chicken life?
So your morality is arbitrary, and at least we can both agree that the chicken has more reason to live than you do.
So your morality is arbitrary
Yours isn't? Where does it come from?
both agree that the chicken has more reason to live than you do.
You're clearly not trolling
Your morality isn’t arbitrary?
This is literally nihilism.
I’m genuinely happy to discuss metaethics, but I’m getting a sense that you don’t actually care about ethics very much, given your nihilism.
This is literally nihilism.
No, it's not.
Nihilism requires intentionally rejecting morality. Accepting that any belief is inherently arbitrary, but still caring about that, is not nihilism
Why stoop to their level? We’re claiming to be better than a killer
No take backs. One mistake is too many mistakes
It’s actually cheaper to keep them alive
If you hate killing so much, you must be vegan, right? Or do you kill some non-human animals but not other non-human animals?
2, 3
Now that we can agree about your hypocrisy, there’s not much left to discuss.
What? I care about human lives, I don't really care about the lives of other animals
Since human beings are also just animals, I assume you have some non-arbitrary reason for favoring one species over another?
Keep in mind that speciation is technically arbitrary, and that we can just as easily decide that you and I are not the same species. Go ahead, explain to me why I’m entitled to farm and eat you. I can’t wait to hear this.
non-arbitrary reason
Do you have a non-arbitrary reason for opposing murder?
“Murder” is an illegal killing. I don’t oppose murder; I oppose immoral killing. That’s different.
If you simply claimed that you’re against pointless killing I wouldn’t consider that arbitrary, since I share your strong intuition that causing meaningless suffering is deeply wrong. That is, in fact, precisely why I find it confusing that you would violate this intuition.
An arbitrary moral distinction would be like claiming that you are against ending innocent lives, unless they’re a different race, gender, species, nationality, or color than you, given that none of these factors have any moral relevance.
What is the moral significance of a creature’s nationality or species? Moral philosophers consider this question fairly settled, so let me know if you have some novel insights.
If you simply claimed that you’re against pointless killing I wouldn’t consider that arbitrary, since I share your strong intuition that causing meaningless suffering is deeply wrong. That is, in fact, precisely why I find it confusing that you would violate this intuition.
And that is where you will find your answer, I have a personal intuition both about what lives I value- I don't believe all pointless killing is bad, regardless of life form, I don't care if someone pulls up the plants in their yard because they feel like it. And you clearly value some life less than human life given that you eat to exist.
An arbitrary moral distinction would be like claiming that you are against ending innocent lives, unless they’re a different race, gender, species, nationality, or color than you, given that none of these factors have any moral relevance.
What? You understand an intuitive belief can exist for all of those things right?
What is the moral significance of a creature’s nationality or species?
Pretty obvious, I care about the lives of some species and not others. (Do you take antibiotics?). It is based on some framework, that is ultimately based on intuition as well.
Interesting. I am against the death penalty but even if the DNA comes back as not his, he is still eligible for the death penalty. Their debate is that the jury wouldn't have given him the death penalty.
It's Texas; they would have given him the death penalty. It's what they do down there.
Pro-Life™
What is the upside of keeping serial killers alive pray tell? I genuinely don’t get it.
How often people are wrongly convicted is the only reason I need to not want the death penalty to be used.
What is the upside of allowing the government to kill citizens?
I’m actually shocked the “limited small govt” crowd isn’t anti death penalty given it provides a legal avenue for state sanctioned murder.
Feels like they’d be against that sort of thing.
trust me a lot of them are
Idk what’s the upside of killing rabid dogs? Most dogs are better than most humans, so how does the math work out there?
thats a mercy killing. rabies is fatal and the end is horrible.
Rabies and psychopathy are diseases. The prognosis is terminal in both cases, and death would be a mercy. Rabies is also far less harmful than psychopathy, because it results in less collateral damage. After all, psychopathy is responsible for almost every evil you can see in the world today from famine to poverty and war.
Again, there is an argument against the death penalty but protecting psychopaths ain’t it.
No they are not both diseases. psychopathy is not caused by infection or is it communicable. They have no basis for comparison. Also do you know anything at all about rabies progression? Its about the worst disease you can have if you have gone passed the point of no return to treat it.
Not all diseases are communicable or infectious. Psychopathy is a serious neurological pathology that robs humans of anything resembling humanity. That makes it a hell of a lot worse than rabies to my mind, but of course that’s debatable. Regardless, I’m not sure how ranking one horrible affliction against another makes much difference for this analogy.
I can agree with that. Its just not a good analogy because again they are just not really comparable things.
Do you formulate your opinions based on reasons you can articulate or is this just a fleeting thought you’re having?
I already expressed it. rabies is a communicable disease. What most people think about with diseases. Diseases that can spread and cause an epidemic. Not like a genetic fault or from personal trauma. They are just not analogous. Or do you want to know about rabies in general from my earlier comment. Someone had a good writeup but I can't find it but this has it listed pretty well if it remains untreated and one dies from it. https://www.verywellhealth.com/rabies-symptoms-1298793#toc-acute-neurologic-period
I don't know, I think presuming you know the reasons and effects of things has led to some pretty harmful outcomes over the years.
You’re right, none of us know anything. We can presume no facts, nor make even the most salient observations. All social science is false, and nihilists like you are right about everything.
Individuals can, "collectives" cannot.
A lot of it
I am not a nihilist.
Your words say one thing, but your other words say another.
Where did I say another?
I would not say there is specifically an upside to keeping a serial killer alive, but there are many downsides to the death penalty both ethically and in practice, not the least of which is the chance that you would execute an innocent person. For those of us who are anti-death penalty, that is usually where we’re coming from.
I’m against the death penalty, and I know the best argument against it, something nobody in this thread has even approximately articulated.
Currently, as far as I know, there is only one strong argument against the death penalty, and it has to do with moral proscriptions against treating the death of a person as a spectacle, which I notice nobody mentioned.
I don’t want someone to kill me; therefore I believe it is also not okay for me to kill someone else. It’s just the golden rule. I am not a student of ethics or philosophy but it seems pretty straightforward to me.
In the event that I were guilty of causing great harm to innocent people, then I should be killed. Not in revenge, but as a matter of course, given that my life would no longer be worth living.
This is the golden rule in action, which is about how you would want to be treated in similar circumstances.
it isn't a deterrent,
It is cheaper to let them rot in prison for life,
nobody wants to make the drugs involved for the 'humane way' so it is really difficult to obtain enough where it is used,
it is fundamentally inhumane to kill someone that knows it's coming (mental torture),
risk of executing an innocent, and as already stated
it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing.
That killing serial killers causes them harm isn’t a particularly compelling point, since we disagree over whether harming them is, in fact, good.
This is a good point and one I would explore further. However, it leaves open exceptions where the evidence is overwhelming.
Killing isn’t always bad. Killing innocent creatures is bad. Killing serial killers is tantamount to putting down rabid animals.
So you're dishonest. Got it.
No, I am genuinely against the death penalty.
It’s important not to conflate moral facts with practical policy. Most of your arguments focus on how people should be treated, whereas the relevant question is how governments should behave and why. These are very different things.
Regardless of what people deserve, no government should go around killing its own citizens. That is because killing as a punishment makes a spectacle of death. It is profoundly unhealthy for any civil society to revel in death. That’s the answer. It has nothing to do with what serial killers deserve. They do not matter.
And you trust the state to make that decision? Or a jury?
A serial killer can be removed from society and prevented from having an opportunity to kill. “Putting him down” is just you stooping to his level out of misguided self-righteousness
A rabid animal is suffering from the final hours of a horrible communicable disease that is 100% fatal. It’s in horrible pain, out of its mind, and you are doing a mercy to end its misery
Listen, if you want to keep a psychopath alive in your basement for some unknown reason, well, as long as he doesn’t get out and maul anyone that’s fine by me. But you’re insane if you think normal people should spend their hard-earned money contributing to that exercise in immiseration.
Nah I think not killing innocent people is a pretty strong argument, death being a spectacle doesn't really matter to me- someone killing someone is much worse than the part where they post it on LiveLeak
If you’re so against killing innocents, I assume you’re vegan. Or… is your morality as twisted and inconsistent as I suspect?
Or I care about human life and not chicken life?
So your morality is arbitrary, and at least we can both agree that the chicken has more reason to live than you do.
Yours isn't? Where does it come from?
You're clearly not trolling
This is literally nihilism.
I’m genuinely happy to discuss metaethics, but I’m getting a sense that you don’t actually care about ethics very much, given your nihilism.
No, it's not.
Nihilism requires intentionally rejecting morality. Accepting that any belief is inherently arbitrary, but still caring about that, is not nihilism
Because that makes the state a serial killer. In fact, the state has murdered far more people than even the most prolific serial killer.
Whether or not they are innocent is often an afterthought. A way too late afterthought.
Yet being suspicious of the state makes you a radical or a narcissist
It’s cheaper
killing people is bad
killing innocent people is bad*
who gets to decided who is innocent?
Are you serious with this question?
it's a rhetorical question.
If you hate killing so much, you must be vegan, right? Or do you kill some non-human animals but not other non-human animals?
2, 3
Now that we can agree about your hypocrisy, there’s not much left to discuss.
What? I care about human lives, I don't really care about the lives of other animals
Since human beings are also just animals, I assume you have some non-arbitrary reason for favoring one species over another?
Keep in mind that speciation is technically arbitrary, and that we can just as easily decide that you and I are not the same species. Go ahead, explain to me why I’m entitled to farm and eat you. I can’t wait to hear this.
Do you have a non-arbitrary reason for opposing murder?
“Murder” is an illegal killing. I don’t oppose murder; I oppose immoral killing. That’s different.
If you simply claimed that you’re against pointless killing I wouldn’t consider that arbitrary, since I share your strong intuition that causing meaningless suffering is deeply wrong. That is, in fact, precisely why I find it confusing that you would violate this intuition.
An arbitrary moral distinction would be like claiming that you are against ending innocent lives, unless they’re a different race, gender, species, nationality, or color than you, given that none of these factors have any moral relevance.
What is the moral significance of a creature’s nationality or species? Moral philosophers consider this question fairly settled, so let me know if you have some novel insights.
And that is where you will find your answer, I have a personal intuition both about what lives I value- I don't believe all pointless killing is bad, regardless of life form, I don't care if someone pulls up the plants in their yard because they feel like it. And you clearly value some life less than human life given that you eat to exist.
What? You understand an intuitive belief can exist for all of those things right?
Pretty obvious, I care about the lives of some species and not others. (Do you take antibiotics?). It is based on some framework, that is ultimately based on intuition as well.
Incredibly, even this atrocious court has the ability to hand down a reasonable ruling once in a great while.