How would you feel about Lemmy being able to pull in hashtags from the Fediverse?
So you could subscribe communities to hashtags and have it displays toots and pictures from that hashtag in the Lemmy UI
So you could subscribe communities to hashtags and have it displays toots and pictures from that hashtag in the Lemmy UI
If you want to follow Mastodon hashtags, you should just use Mastodon. It has the UX to support this, and all you'd end up by shoving this into lemmy is a lot of noise in a UI that's designed for replies to a single thread and not just hundreds and hundreds of threads.
The idea isn't to firehose mastodon into Lemmy. But to tighten the integration across the Fediverse. Yes, if a community subscribed to #Harris, it would be flooded, but if a community subscribes to #CityFarm it wouldn't grab many posts and would essentially enrich the community. It would be up to the moderators to decide what hashtag they're subscribing to.
You can create a tab : one where you see users you follow, another one where you see community. And in your setting, you can deactivate it, even block being followed by users.
So there won't be any noise. And when you click on hashtag, you can switch beetween : local, lemmyverse, fediverse user...and also limit the hashtag to the 10th most recent message.
So you won't have any noise. That something you can limit.
So basically, Mbin?
Well, you know that we can't migrate that easily given the community we built together. But i do think that's the way and the futur of fediverse software. :)
From a user perspective, Jlailu is perfectly accessible from Mbin
I know. It was a kbin fork, so if it didn't work well i would be very very sad. š
However, where it won't work it's when we try to mix individual and group. That's why i do think fediverse software should support both.
For now i have enough account, mainly on iceshrimp where i crosspost to lemmy so i can connect both side and allow people from mastodon to reach us and write to us. š
What are the issues with Mbin and microblogging? Some toots are not accessible?
As i recall the problem with mastodon and lemmy was tied to activitypub technical side : group and individual.
i talked about kbin, i had an account there one year ago. Last time when i tried kbin, i couldn't find my way, it wasn't pleasant. Mbin probably improved that. so with mbin It is probably a thing of the past but i have to try once.
As long as it's something you can turn off and remove, that seems like a weird 'I want everything in one place' thing but not utterly destructive of the Lemmy experience.
It sounded more like stuffing a firehose into your Lemmy UI, at which point all you've really done is just make Lemmy a mastodon client, and I've already got several better options for that anyway.
It's not i want "everything at one place" but "i want to break free" :
https://invidious.fdn.fr/watch?v=NkAm0u3lqH8
Let's forget mastodon, lemmy, those aren't the essence of my ideas. Before we had people on twitter, people on facebook, people on youtube. Those were walled garden.
I'm striving for nomadic account (concept taken from hubzilla) and fediverse.
I should have one social account where i can talk to people whatever are their software.
Thatās the main reason, i was attracted by fediverse concept and word. Its selling point was freedom and bit of privacy :
I should be able to post, comment, like on mastodon, lemmy, pixelfed, peertube...without any restriction. And follow any account, community without any restriction except user, community and server choice.
I should be able to migrate on any software, with my contacts, communities and blocklist. And it should self-update and tell my contact, if i allow it that my adress has changed.
That's what i would call the fediverse. Otherwise, i call it lemmyverse, mastoverse, peertubeverse, pixelverse. So it don't confuse anyone. We can do that just a little due to technical limitation of activitypub.
However, if that's our aim, then the software will slowly drift toward those two tabs and come up with different UI flavour.
I think we should just stop using "fediverse" word as we perpetuate the same walled garden as proprietary software. That's misleading.
The very essence of freedom is that no user shall be tied to a software.
But, please, that's my personal view on the fediverse. I'm curious, how do you imagine the fediverse ? Do you just want the same thing as Reddit with tags ? :)
It's more about the quality of the content: you posted more than a couple hundred characters and thus were able to clearly outline what you wanted, why, and how you thought that would improve things.
Mastodon has the twitter problem where it's short-form hot-takes and basically no good long-form content, other than like, to link to somewhere else for the good content.
I don't have a lot of use for that kind of content especially in a format where it's hard to respond to and have an actual conversation. Most twitter-clone UIs don't do a good job of threading and nesting comments in a way that you can easily follow along and have conversations with the people engaged in discussion.
I'm old and like the forum-style interface where people can write out a complete thought, engage in a formatted discussion that's easy to follow along with, and does so in a way that lets other people easily hop in at any point.
So I'd say it's less about the idea of unifying platforms on a single identity (which I think is a great idea and firmly agree that having some sort of Fediverse SSO would make this a lot easier of a sell for less technical users) but more that dumping a pile of low-quality content into a place with reasonably good content isn't actually improving anything.
(I would also qualify this with a comment that I'm old enough that my first "fediverse service" was FidoNet, so I'm reasonably sure I have a different opinion on the value of a well-designed platform for a single specific task vs making one that can do everything for everyone.)
jlai.lu
1 BoƮte de rƩception
@schizo@forum.uncomfortable.business pour Lemmy@lemmy.ml ā¢ How would you feel about Lemmy being able to pull in hashtags from the Fediverse? 1ā¢
Itās more about the quality of the content: you posted more than a couple hundred characters and thus were able to clearly outline what you wanted, why, and how you thought that would improve things.
Mastodon has the twitter problem where itās short-form hot-takes and basically no good long-form content, other than like, to link to somewhere else for the good content.
I donāt have a lot of use for that kind of content especially in a format where itās hard to respond to and have an actual conversation. Most twitter-clone UIs donāt do a good job of threading and nesting comments in a way that you can easily follow along and have conversations with the people engaged in discussion.
Iām old and like the forum-style interface where people can write out a complete thought, engage in a formatted discussion thatās easy to follow along with, and does so in a way that lets other people easily hop in at any point.
So Iād say itās less about the idea of unifying platforms on a single identity (which I think is a great idea and firmly agree that having some sort of Fediverse SSO would make this a lot easier of a sell for less technical users) but more that dumping a pile of low-quality content into a place with reasonably good content isnāt actually improving anything.
(I would also qualify this with a comment that Iām old enough that my first āfediverse serviceā was FidoNet, so Iām reasonably sure I have a different opinion on the value of a well-designed platform for a single specific task vs making one that can do everything for everyone.)
Interesting, thank for sharing your experience. :)
Yes, we need a short of fediverse SSO. I think nomadic account as hubzilla one would fit it nicely. For the SSO, i imagine is as our email address. And the alias are fedi-account. We may guide user to find their server : do you wwrite lenghty or short message ? Are you on phone or PC ? Which UI ddo you prefer ?
Well i often miss forum period because the content was better that was phpbb golden era. I see twitter/mastodon message as a live chat format where you can find someone talking about your interest with hashtag. Itās where i can take a break and share a bit of my life and see whatās going on. Compared to lemmy, i find mastodon more playful.
I use mastodon for political post because of their anoying and useful text limitation. I love debating. The problem is that with some users it ended up to a full scale nuclear wars where i spent lot time write to defend my stance. Iām the kind of guy to believe in police and anarchy, so you understand how it can end up very badly.
The 500 characters help me to keep quiet and donāt fall in a needlessy argumentation. And the fact i didnāt setup as an all-in software allow me to isolate when i need some love. :)
For Iceshrimp, itās a cross-over between mastodon and lemmy with one of the most beautiful UI. I have 3000 characters and itās a good balance between lenghty text and short of. I only miss the forum UI.
And lemmy, when you use filter new and new comment is almost exactly like mastodon. :)
Sounds like an awesome addition to people on Lemmy!
Thanks for sharing your views on the matter!
The value of communities in Lemmy comes from the members of the community participating in them. The members choose material to present to their community with intent, with the desire to contribute to their community. The community then adds value by interacting with the presented material (even a negative response from the community adds value to the community by refining the community identity and interest).
Automatically pulling in material from non-community members destroys the value of the community. It pollutes the community space with material that no community member chose prior to its presentation.
Some communities have bots creating topics, wouldn't this be similar?
Lots of people don't like those communities that are filled with bot posts. A lot of people even disable viewing of bot posts. Most of those bot posts have 0 comments.
I just don't think they're a good example to support your case.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of bots ripping content from Reddit. But these would be humans. You would just be adding a thread inclusive of replies. Unlike bots, toot authors also reply.
The content on Reddit is also submitted by humans (well, mostly).
This assumes that a post pulled from Mastodon to Lemmy will also push comments from Lemmy back to Mastodon (or at least notifications of comments)... which is a real infrastructure problem, and also depends on the Mastodon communities wanting that interaction, and the admins allowing it.
Huh? This functionality is already in place and has been for a while.
Hashtags feel like a mastodon thing that don't belong here.
You don't think that pulling toots tagged with #politics into !politics@lemmy.world could be useful?
I don't know what a toot is. Is that just a Fediverse tweet?
How would that impact moderation and rules? Ie, just because some random person tagged a post #politics doesn't mean it complies with the rules of that lemmy community.
I come here for links, not micro blog posts by random people.
I feel like it would be more interesting to be able to properly "crosspost" a toot into Lemmy. When I'm on the twittoverse with my Sharkey account, I often encounter content that I want to share in Lemmy community. The only way to it for know is to create a new toot and have in it the link to the toot to share. That's not great.
Also, I often forgot to add the mention of the community when I wrote OC from Sharkey I cannot edit my toot to add the mention and see it post to Lemmy. I have to delete it and rewrite it from the start.
It would be nice to have a bookmarklet that enabled easier cross posting.
If you use both Lemmy and Sharkey actively, Mbin might be interesting to you: https://kbin.run/ or https://fedia.io/
That's a good advice but not in my case because I'm much attached to my local thread. Do you know if kbin allow to do crosspost of toots?
Not an expert, but I've heard so, yes.
Mbin users, please correct me if I'm wrong
I use iceshrimp. I think lemmy is missing a lot from hashtag.
As i see :
Lemmy is not part of the fediverse but a lemmyverse. It lacks connection with other software and other software lacks connection to lemmy. I think we need to build a bridge between microblog and forum.
In the french fediverse community, our main base of users come from mastodon. And i would like to reach them.
I saw, in activitypub the ability to share and post whatever is your software. A complete freedom where you just need one account.
There is differents purpose, but i do think offering people both is good : microblog and forum. And i think the fediverse will slowly move toward that. With a UI for individual and other for community.
And hashtags do both :
So, i think piefed will grow a lot.
Have you tried Mbin?
Last time i tried kbin/mbin it was messy, i couldn't get a graps on their UI and their name.
If mbin remove lot things it would be easier, we only need two tabs to ensure the best intertorability between fediverse software.
Edit : i just went there, i think there is less option in the menu but i can't compare their evolution.
I notice Mbin is very similar to iceshrimp. Once the rewritting of iceshrimp in C is done, i think they will share lot conmon ground.
For now, i prefer piefed and their subcategorie.
Edit 2 : and the only french forum/reddit is jlai.lu so my choice are limited :)
Glad to hear that Mbin is less messy.
You could access all of the Jlai.lu communities via Mbin
Not really trying to argue, just saying that diffent tools are for different folks. People who really want to bridge the microblogging and link aggregator parts of the Fedivers should probably use Mbin.
People who want the link aggregator with the most apps and web interfaces should use Lemmy.
Early adopters should give Piefed a try.
Well it will be hard for moderators if i'm the only one posting french content on an english server. ^^
I understand it better now, you are right, thank a lot for sharing your point of view. :)
So Lemmy should be my my choice due to its apps with moderation tool (jerboa, thunder). i mainly use my mobile to post content and moderate. I'm almost never in front of my computer.
As an app Tusky fit very well as it is able to manage mastodon and iceshrimp flawlessy. And tusky may support lemmy. Why ?
Iceshrimp plan to support lemmy in december 2024. So i'm curious to see how it will evolve because they also have a group tab as kbin/mbin called magazine. And they have a good relationship with tusky dev.
Currently, magazine isn't used a lot, but if i'm guessing it right, it will support lemmy community.
Communities moderators don't change because you see it from a different instance. I'm pretty sure none of the LW admins speak French, but there are plenty of users reading Jlailu communities from there
Let's hope š¤
Well on tedomum, they argued a lot about it because they couldn't moderate an user that didn't speak their language. Very interesting topic. :)
Of course, but that was because those users wanted to host the communities on Tedomum.
In this scenario, it's different, I'm suggesting you to use fedia.io to access Jlailu communities.
The communities stay on Jlailu, the moderators are the same, but you can access both Jlailu and the mastoverse
Two months ago, I spent dozen hours setting up my alts account on peculiar.florist and mastodon...subcription, filters, contacts, keyword alert. They also act as whole a community with topics.
I just want to settle a bit. I moved a lot to mastodon, pixelfed, lemmy, kbin... :)
Just to give you a rough idea, i spent lot time building these list that are a mix of lemmy and mastodon. And when i did that, i configured tusky.
It takes time. If it was one year ago, i would easily change software. For now i'm waiting that fediverse software improve.
So it won't happen until next year. :)
Not a fan.
If you want to follow:
If you think a post is relevant from one of those in another, link it.
Communities have topics. Communities are groups. Communities are full of individuals.
Not all parts of a topic belong in a community. For example, let's say I have a community about car mechanic advice. The relevant topics are probably #cars #auto_repair and #mechanics. However, #cars can also apply to new cars, deals on used cars, or the movie cars, none of which are directly relevant to auto repair. Likewise, #mechanics can apply to airplane mechanics or even video game mechanics. Trying to match communities to sets of hashtags is going to be noisy, so you'll get a lot of false positives and false negatives.
Likewise, not all individuals in a community are worth following, and individuals often post about different topics than the ones in a community. If you're interested in cars and I post about cars, you may want to follow me. But I may also post about cryptocurrencies and lawn care, and you may not care about those at all.
Trying to mix Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook style posts doesn't particularly work. It's better, IMO, to use services that do each of those well separately, and cross-post from one to another when you think it's relevant. Treat them as islands, and build bridges between them, don't try to mash them together into one SM soup.
But in the implementation I proposed, moderators would get to subscribe their communities to hashtags they choose or none at all.
Sure, and I think most moderators would choose to not subscribe to hashtags at all, because hashtags don't fit well with the community-based system. If you want hashtags, use Mastodon. If you don't, use Lemmy.
The words in the middle are the key difference, though:
Communities are groups
Communities involve (i.e. are not) topics
Communities involve (i.e. are not) individuals
The social structure of Lemmy is fundamentally centred on groups, and that's what makes it distinct from other fediverse platforms, even if there is some interoperability
What is preventing people from spamming popular hashtags to flood communities?
Currently, if they want to do so, they have to manually crosspost to each community, tags seems an easier way to flood
The same thing preventing people from spamming community tags presently.
We have visible community tags at the moment? I thought they were only visible from Mastodon, and invisible from Lemmy?
Maybe I'm explaining poorly, but people on mastodon and PixelFed have been able to tag communities via @lemmy@lemmy.ml for a while.
Ah yes, but the main difference is that they need to know the exact community name to be able to post, a tag is much more generic
Most times people tag Firefox and end up in !firefox@lemmy.ml
That's an easy one, but I'm thinking about stuff like !wholesomegreentext@sh.itjust.works, a bit harder to type and find
Indeed, but if !wholesomegreentext@sh.itjust.works subscribe to #greentext, it's easier to tag stuff.
That said, it's not a hill I wanna die on. It's just a random idea I was floating to try and add content to some of the more niche communities.
Yes, and then easier to flood too š
Something else that I just thought about: there would be no way to prevent multiple communities to fetch the same hashtag, so we would end up with even more duplicates than now, with toots replicated on all of the communities fetching that hashtag
What's wrong with duplicates? I love seeing stuff posted to multiple communities. I get to check out new communities and meet new people.
It leads to discussion fragmentation, especially when the 2 communities are the same, but still split, like !android@lemdro.id and !android@lemmy.world
Fragmentation is a myth. Look at the various different technology groups that are all thriving on different instances. Stop (inadvertantly) pushing for centralization!
Out of band classifiers makes sense.
Also Lemmyverse wide agglomeration of communities should be the default view, the current balkanized Lemmyverse communities cause "big community syndrome" where the community unit becomes centralized again, negating most of Lemmy's benefits relative to reddit.
Agglomeration of communities could lead to some clash too.
Have a look at the !fediverse@lemmy.world and !fediverse@lemmy.ml opinions on the Harris on Mastodon thing, having both groups discussing in one big place could get messy
If I were subscribed to both those places and saw posts from either of those places, it would make zero difference for which server they are. And the same goes for 99.99% of users. You have to be lost pretty far in the weeds to know the nuance and difference between the two.
I don't think clash is the right way to think about it. It's missing half the discussion to see just one. That's the problem.
And with the way things are, users will not double post to each, eventually one of the two will wither and die. For most communities, this situation of two communities will not even exist.
So, Mastodon is working on a communities feature. I think having Mastodon and Lemmy communities have interop (along with great interop between the "same community" on two different instances) would be the superior option.
As an example, if someone posted or tooted the same link to several communities I'm following, I should be able to see all of the comments aggregated/tab between the community posts and responses. In other words, it should aggregate a view of all the different discussions about that link for all the communities I'm subscribed to and/or that my instance knows about.
Hashtags remind me of pound like on a telephone. So if someone say hashtag taylor swift I auto think pound taylor swift. And besides twitter or x or whatever has no place on here.
Some Lemmy compatible platforms do stuff like that
Something like that could work, as long as it's an additional option and not a change to how communities currently work.
Mixing hashtags with communities sounds like a bad idea because of how much content would come in at once. For example, there are a few RSS feed communities and already those ones are overwhelming to keep up with. Most posts sit with no comments and 1 vote, which doesn't work for the vote & comment based way we organize content here.
We can improve how we federate these platforms together, but I prefer the tagging method. That way it's a conscious decision to post a microblog post in a community.
Sorry to get back so late to this. I covered everything elsewhere though.
i think if lemmy is going to include micro-blogging, it should be differentiated and obvious. mixing into existing communities is just going to increase user confusion.
I wouldn't like an mbin/kbin style implementation, just the ability to grab posts without them needing to be tagged.
Sounds like it'd improve interop. Make it so that there's a curation system where communities can choose specific users/instances to watch for this content.
Sorry everyone, I'm not ignoring anyone. Just had this random idea as the football started.