Why does Hamas need Israel's agreement to release hostages? Can't they release them to the Egyptian border guards at Rafah border crossing in the South?
Even if they can't release them to Egypt, they could put them at the border, and tell the news agencies hey these are hostages being released, and put a live video feed on them standing at the border. I promise you Egypt would not leave them standing there indefinitely. The media coverage alone would get them to at least take the hostages over the border.
Hell, they could take them to a UN compound and release them into the custody of the UN.
Because that way they won't be able to extort goods and services for the hostages .. so sad seeing good hostage wasted...
In this press release Hamas said they tried to release more prisoners but Israeli wouldn't accept them.
If Hamas is being genuine, there shouldn't be any tit for tat on a humanitarian hostage release.
I'm just trying to demonstrate how The Hamas statement feels demonstrably disingenuous. Because they have other options.
Hamas is not a good actor, the plight of the people in the Gaza strip does not helped by Hamas being such a bad actor.
From what I understand they released two hostages via the Red Cross and things went fine. I think Hamas willing to return hostages is a good thing. Why won't Israel take them up on it despite them already releasing two? Most likely imo because Israel's long term goals include genocide and their handling of the hostage situation so far has been shit.
I think the balance of probability is demonstrates that's Hamas is lying here. If they wanted to release two hostages, with no strings attached, they could simply drop them off at the Red Cross, the UN, or at the Egyptian border. To claim that they need Israelis agreement, and support to release a hostage is extremely disingenuous.
Honestly, it sounds like they're just trying to get a sound bite for propaganda purposes. It doesn't matter that it's obviously a lie, the people who can see it's a lie aren't the ones the propaganda's for.
. If they wanted to release two hostages, with no strings attached, they could simply drop them off at the Red Cross, the UN, or at the Egyptian border.
They did drop two hostages to the Red Cross just 2 days ago.
Great. Why can't they do that again? Why press release that Israel is preventing them from releasing two more hostages with no strings attached?
No one said or suggested they can't do thart again. It's saying Israel doesn't want to cooperate.
I don't want to believe Hamas straight away but Israel is the one with the track record of lies.
My point is, why does it matter if Israel cooperates or not? There's many places to release the hostages to that aren't Israeli.
So this press release, and the implication of it, looks like straight propaganda based on a lie.
Why does it matter if Israel, whose citizens and visitors are hostages, responds to a request to release the hostages?
Give me a break. Israel always gets absolved in everything doesn't it.
Yeah it could be propaganda but your reasoning is really deficient here.
I'm sorry you think that way. I am genuinely pro-Palestinian freedom. Antiapartheid. But I'm not going to take propaganda at face value. We have to critically think about all the data we're getting.
Hamas saying they are unable to release two hostages is false on the face of itself. To claim that they are unable to release hostages because of Israeli resistance is also demonstrably false. We both agree, in this very conversation, the Hamas could drop off anybody they want to the Red Cross at any time. The fact that they're unwilling to do that, and blame Israel, demonstrates this is a false propaganda narrative.
This is not a dichotomy, you're not pro-Hamas or pro Israeli. There's more positions to that. Both of the belligerent military forces here have demonstrated themselves to lie constantly. We can dislike both of them and still want Palestinian freedom, and the end of apartheid.
But if my logic is incorrect, please help me understand my logical errors here.
Your "why does it matter if" and resting your argument on it. I don't see it. Why wouldn't Israel negotiate about hostage release? It has done so in the past successfully. Hamas isn't pulling a wildcard here.
Looking at Israeli public opinion, it seems that no one believes this is a good way to handle the hostage situation. We can talk about Hamas lying all day but it's quite likely true that hostages have died in Israeli bombing of Gaza itself. Again, Israel has a bigger goal here that goes beyond those hostages. Their own governments are betraying them, it's not fair. Israel's actions indicate that their concern for the wellbeing of those hostages is not genuine.
Internally, Netanyahu can't afford to reject any semi reasonable offer. He also wants to be able to say he did anything positive.
He'll hopefully be crucified no matter what, but in his eyes nothing is his fault and he's working hard at getting points for any achievement and blaming everything and anyone in the past millenia.
you make everything look simple. I'm slightly fascinated. then I get back into reality and I remember there's a cruel, blind war, and huge interests and plans going far over the borders of Isreal and Gaza.
the spiraling hate between parts? ah! silly them! "why they don't just..."
It's not simple. But it does demonstrate hamas is lying about their willingness to release two hostages no strings attached.
again you're oversimplifying things, with these black and white statements. extremely dangerous, extremely...
How are they not lying? If they want to release two hostages they have a variety of options that don't involve Israel. They could drop them off at the Egyptian border, they could drop them off at the Red Cross, they could drop them off at any of the UN compounds.
They're unwillingness to release two hostages is completely on them. For them to try to blame Israel is disingenuous, and clearly a lie.
But I'm open to being wrong, how is Hamas prevented from releasing two hostages right now? What prevents them from dropping them off at the Red Cross or any of the UN compounds right now today?
That site blocks my country. So I can't read the article.
But yes everything in Gaza has danger. But they could publicize the fact that they're dropping off at the Red Cross, post a video, live stream it, whatever. It would show the willing and it's not dependent on Israel
That site blocks my country. So I can’t read the article.
Here's the first 2 sentences.
The International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC) confirmed Wednesday that five staffers were killed in armed hostilities in Israel and the Gaza Strip.
"Today, in two different incidents, ambulances were hit killing four Palestine Red Crescent paramedics who were helping those in need," IFRC said in a statement.
I understand it's not the whole article but please try to extrapolate with the information given
Edit: Or like... you could def read enough from that URL that you could google it yourself if you actually cared...
Yes. I agree. It's a war crime. It's terrible. But it has nothing to do with Hamas releasing hostages. They could release them to the UN, or the Red Cross. The incumbent danger of the war zone doesn't change. They could get the credit for releasing the hostages even if a bombing later destroys the Red Cross building.
Yes. I agree. It’s a war crime. It’s terrible. But it has nothing to do with Hamas releasing hostages.
What purpose does it serve to ignore all context around Hamas and the hostages, and focus only on them?
People on this thread have recounted so many examples to you.
Red Cross staff are bombed and killed. Ambulances are unsafe. The Rafah crosspoint is unsafe. Even if Hamas hands them over to the Red Cross or to anyone there is a big chance they will be killed by Israel "by mistake". It's Israel's own citizens, plus the internationals, which it's swearing to protect and bring back safe and yet they don't even want to open any kind of channel to negotiate with Hamas.
Yes, Hamas is wrong to take non-military hostages, but none of that absolves Israel from its behavior.
So to reiterate
But it has nothing to do with Hamas releasing hostages.
It has a lot to do with Israel.
They could release them to the UN, or the Red Cross.
You can see numerous examples of why this is a bad idea and not easily done.
We seem to be stuck talking in circles.
One of the belligerents released a statement that was demonstrably false in of itself. Pointing out that one of the belligerence is lying, is not taking a side
The other belligerent also has many issues. But pointing out their lying is also not taking a
We have to use our critical thinking skills at all times, and point out when either side lies to us, the documentation of the lies is useful for reconciliation after the war when the populations have to live together.
Getting stuck in a cycle saying what about what about what about, doesn't change anything. If one side is lying to us we need to dispassionately, and critically point that out. I've done that to the best of my ability, I apologize if my logic wasn't clear, if you would like to point out any of my logical fallacies I'm happy to work with you on that
The emotional reaction around the war is terrible, but I don't want to get involved in emotions when we're dissecting a clear and blatant lie by one of the parties.
Honestly resting your entire argument on, "why won't hamas just release them themselves mmkay?" is the one that got people going into circles. Your question has been answered in numerous different ways and yet you seem stuck on it.
The emotional reaction around the war is terrible, but I don’t want to get involved in emotions when we’re dissecting a clear and blatant lie by one of the parties.
No problem, but no one is talking about that, they are instead addressing your single flawed talking point. Hope that makes it clearer.
They could get the credit for releasing the hostages even if a bombing later destroys the Red Cross building.
You're not giving an honest answer. How can you release a hostage to somewhere that isn't safe? Why not just release them inside Gaza 2 minutes from the building where their being held? What if they get attacked on the way to release the hostage?
Your answer is cute and works for middle school dodgeball but doesn't work in a world where governments actively engage in disinformation campaigns
They have the options of releasing hostages. They could live stream the entire thing. They could bring a reporter along. They could demonstrate their intention.
And yes there's active bombings, but the probability is they would be able to make it to a UN compound, or the Red Cross.
The fact that they were able to release two hostages I believe it was yesterday, through the Red Cross, demonstrates they can.
I only take issue with the fact that they said they were unable to release hostages without Israeli support. Clearly that's not true, as they demonstrated yesterday by the release of two hostages to the Red Cross
They could live stream the entire thing.
With what internet my guy? Gaza's sole power station ran out of fuel on the 11th. Any backups are being used for hospitals.
They could bring a reporter along. They could demonstrate their intention.
Alright and what happens with the reporter, the red cross workers and the hostages are murdered in a knife attack 45 minutes after being dropped off by Hamas? Who are you blaming? Who is the global theater blaming? Realistically there is no live streaming anymore so if no one uploads the footage later how are you even gonna know this happened?
The fact that they were able to release two hostages I believe it was yesterday, through the Red Cross, demonstrates they can.
can != should. Could yesterday != can today.
Clearly that’s not true, as they demonstrated yesterday by the release of two hostages to the Red Cross
I think that trying to rationalize the behavior of two xenophobic, nationalist, religious fundamentalist far right parties it's just a sterile exercise, often practiced (can't rightly say if that's your will, too) to leave out of the discourse one of these two parties, to implicitly side with one of them. that's all I have to say. have a good day
Have a good day.
I think we've demonstrated conclusively hamas's lying at least about this.
Israel's lying about many things as well, but that's not what the articles about.
I welcome you to show me where my logic is incorrect any time in the future when you have the bandwidth.
That's great. I'm glad they released two hostages.
I can't read the article, I don't have an account on that site and I hit the paywall.
I'm genuinely happy to hostages were released.
https://archive.ph/ZJnM9
I was able to read the article. It looks like they dropped off the hostages at the Red Cross.
ok, long story short. two people were released, red cross helped. hamas got these points hit:
they shown that Netanyahu govt wouldn't help release the hostages
see? we collaborate with red cross, dear westerners, what do you have to say?
the narrative, all that matters is the narrative. hamas seem they started getting this concept...
so, did I show you why you and your deductions were wrong all the way? do you understand why hamas, Netanyahu govt and everyone else (you included?) is trying to push a narrative? do you understand now why it's a terrible attitude?
justify either party, and one might get some blood on themself.
No, this proves I was right The entire time.
Okay let's start over from the beginning
A. Hamas makes a statement, they want to release hostages no strings attached, Israel won't let them ao they can't.
B. Hamas is saying they have no ability to release hostages without Israeli assistance
C. The UN, and the Red Cross, operate inside of the Gaza strip
D. Hamas has access to the Egyptian border
Hamas statement is a lie, because point b contradicts point c and d.
Hamas statement is a lie because point a is contradicted by the contradiction and point b.
In war everybody lies, I fully acknowledge that, but here we have a statement that is self-contradictory in itself. Pointing out that this is a lie is not taking a side, it's pointing out that this is a lie.
If people wanted to say the initial release of two US hostages, had some consideration for Hamas, and they were trying to hint that they wanted the same consideration again to release two Israeli hostages. Fine. But their statement would still be a lie, when they said they didn't want anything to release these hostages for humanitarian reasons.
The fact that today, I guess yesterday now, they released hostages via the Red Cross is great. But it doesn't change the fact they were lying earlier. They don't need Israeli cooperation to release hostages as they've just demonstrated.
Why does Hamas need Israel’s agreement to release hostages?
.
Israel is bombing the Rafah border crossing.
Not constantly, not every minute. Get them close to the border and then tell Egypt they're there. Tell the press they're there
Or released to the Red Cross, or the UN inside of The Gaza strip.
I'm unemployed I'm going to respond to every single message you post replying to me.
I asked you this already, don't be dishonest, with what internet? With what electricity?
Tell the press they’re there
What press my guy? They kicked aljazera out and bombed the AP building a few years ago with no evidence given. They've killed 23 journalists since the beginning of the month
There are reporters for Al Jazeera and other organizations in the Gaza strip. Charging a cell phone, using satellite internet, all things available to a government.
And if not the government, the UN in Red Cross have communication capabilities.
Israel kicked Al Jazeera out of there Israeli offices, Al Jazeera still has reporters in the Gaza strip, you just have to go to their web page and see their daily reports
Israel's killing a lot of journalists it's true, and there are journalists there because it's important, there are journalists there because their Palestinian they can't leave. Media is still getting out
But let's take your point to its logical conclusion, how could Hamas tell us that they're unable to release hostages if they don't have access to the internet?
There are reporters for Al Jazeera and other organizations in the Gaza strip.
Yes, I didn't say they revoked the journalists citizenship. Israel bombed the AP building 2 years ago. Israel has bombed a bunch of hospitals and ambulances. Israel is killing humanitarian aid.
And if not the government, the UN in Red Cross have communication capabilities.
The UN wasn't able to get in for like 3 days after a ceasefire on the border was negotiated. These are not realistic suggestions.
But let’s take your point to its logical conclusion, how could Hamas tell us that they’re unable to release hostages if they don’t have access to the internet?
You only need wired electricity to (record a video and) tell us they're unable to release hostages. Showing a livestream of them releasing hostages requires mobile internet+electricity and requires at least one additional point of internet+(wired) electricity (the tower to broadcast the phone signal).
I'll grant you the logistics behind a live stream would be interesting in a war zone.
But they do have the capability to communicate their activities, to get hostages to be picked up quickly by either Egypt, the Red Cross, or the UN.
If you can admit that then I can admit that dropping them off with the Red Cross and taking photos of the release and airdropping them to like 20 homies (or like 2 journalists) should provide enough evidence to be recovered in case of disaster.
But with how quickly disinformation is spread, with the asymmetric technical capabilities, with the fact that 2 hostages were just released safely with no issue, I don't blame Hamas for trying to do this as safely as possible.
I promise you Egypt would not leave them standing there indefinitely.
Source on Egypt bombing the border crossings cuz I'm pretty sure that's Israel?
Yeah Egypt's not bombing the border. I don't know where you got that impression, but that's definitely not something I said
I don’t know where you got that impression
Well because if you've been paying attention at all it's very clear that it isn't safe to cross the border because someone is not allowing it
Yeah it's dangerous. But I didn't say Egypt was bombing the border.
You're not disagreeing that someone is though
Israel is bombing the Rafah border crossing. They've even published reports saying they've done it.
I never said Egypt was. This whole discussion started when you said I said that Egypt was bombing the border crossing. Something I've never said.
Yeah - I find this especially fucked up, when I watched that Interview with that Hamas Leader that straight out denied that any Israelian civilians were attacked, he said that the attackers were instructed not to attack civilians - while on the other Hand there were First Person Videos that live-streamed the massacre into the world.
I guess Hamas got a lot of bad PR from killing those civilians, in their own „peer groups“.
Here's the Al Jazeera article covering basically the same thing, they even quote a politician saying Hamas could just release the prisoners to the Red Cross or the UN, if they didn't want anything in return.
And they released the first two to them
Edit: lol thanks for downvoting a fact.
They released two US citizens (they might actually live in the US, not just hold a passport). They treat the hostages with US citizenship differently. It has nothing to do with Israel and probably everything to do with not wanting the US to get involved
We down vote not the Fact, we downvote your BS. If you want to blame Isreal then atleast get yourself together and take one of the many real resons to blame them. There are so many and you just sucked up one which might actually be a lie.
Pathetic.
I think that's BS. All I said was repeat something that's already on the fucking news. How am I blaming Israel "for a non-real reason"? I think you and others read waaaaay too much into a comment that isn't even 8 words long.
All I meant with that goddamn comment is to say "Yes, but there is news that they released two already".
I think what's pathetic is reading too much into a person's comment without need.
Emotions are flying high with this, civilians are dying as we argue over fucking BS.
I've read lots of your other comments here and they were filled to the brim with world-class-high-density-double-distilled-propaganda-flavoured BS. So thats what I'm talking about.
I think you don't have anything good or convincing to say so you just generally describe my words in a dumb way. Have a wonderful day/evening, I don't give two fucks. Hamas released two hostages, this isn't a "lie".
I was responding to the person who asked "why don't they release them to the red cross", and all I answered with was news.
Says the one getting ratioed.
Doesn't matter.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
JERUSALEM, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Israel on Saturday described as "propaganda" a claim by Hamas that the militant group had wanted to release two more hostages on humanitarian grounds but that Israel declined to receive them.
Abu Ubaida, spokesman for Hamas' armed wing, said it informed Qatar of the group's intention to release the two additional people on Friday, the same day it freed Americans Judith Tai Ranaan and her daughter Natalie.
In a later statement, Abu Ubaida said Hamas was ready to free the two people on Sunday "using the same procedures" involved in the release of Judith and Natalie.
The Palestinian group captured around 210 people during its deadly assault in southern Israel on Oct. 7.
In a brief statement, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said: "We will not refer to false propaganda by Hamas."
The statement added: "We will continue to act in every way to return all the kidnapped and missing people home."
The original article contains 168 words, the summary contains 158 words. Saved 6%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Why does Hamas need Israel's agreement to release hostages? Can't they release them to the Egyptian border guards at Rafah border crossing in the South?
Even if they can't release them to Egypt, they could put them at the border, and tell the news agencies hey these are hostages being released, and put a live video feed on them standing at the border. I promise you Egypt would not leave them standing there indefinitely. The media coverage alone would get them to at least take the hostages over the border.
Hell, they could take them to a UN compound and release them into the custody of the UN.
Because that way they won't be able to extort goods and services for the hostages .. so sad seeing good hostage wasted...
In this press release Hamas said they tried to release more prisoners but Israeli wouldn't accept them.
If Hamas is being genuine, there shouldn't be any tit for tat on a humanitarian hostage release.
I'm just trying to demonstrate how The Hamas statement feels demonstrably disingenuous. Because they have other options.
Hamas is not a good actor, the plight of the people in the Gaza strip does not helped by Hamas being such a bad actor.
From what I understand they released two hostages via the Red Cross and things went fine. I think Hamas willing to return hostages is a good thing. Why won't Israel take them up on it despite them already releasing two? Most likely imo because Israel's long term goals include genocide and their handling of the hostage situation so far has been shit.
I think the balance of probability is demonstrates that's Hamas is lying here. If they wanted to release two hostages, with no strings attached, they could simply drop them off at the Red Cross, the UN, or at the Egyptian border. To claim that they need Israelis agreement, and support to release a hostage is extremely disingenuous.
Honestly, it sounds like they're just trying to get a sound bite for propaganda purposes. It doesn't matter that it's obviously a lie, the people who can see it's a lie aren't the ones the propaganda's for.
They did drop two hostages to the Red Cross just 2 days ago.
Great. Why can't they do that again? Why press release that Israel is preventing them from releasing two more hostages with no strings attached?
No one said or suggested they can't do thart again. It's saying Israel doesn't want to cooperate.
I don't want to believe Hamas straight away but Israel is the one with the track record of lies.
My point is, why does it matter if Israel cooperates or not? There's many places to release the hostages to that aren't Israeli.
So this press release, and the implication of it, looks like straight propaganda based on a lie.
Why does it matter if Israel, whose citizens and visitors are hostages, responds to a request to release the hostages?
Give me a break. Israel always gets absolved in everything doesn't it.
Yeah it could be propaganda but your reasoning is really deficient here.
I'm sorry you think that way. I am genuinely pro-Palestinian freedom. Antiapartheid. But I'm not going to take propaganda at face value. We have to critically think about all the data we're getting.
Hamas saying they are unable to release two hostages is false on the face of itself. To claim that they are unable to release hostages because of Israeli resistance is also demonstrably false. We both agree, in this very conversation, the Hamas could drop off anybody they want to the Red Cross at any time. The fact that they're unwilling to do that, and blame Israel, demonstrates this is a false propaganda narrative.
This is not a dichotomy, you're not pro-Hamas or pro Israeli. There's more positions to that. Both of the belligerent military forces here have demonstrated themselves to lie constantly. We can dislike both of them and still want Palestinian freedom, and the end of apartheid.
But if my logic is incorrect, please help me understand my logical errors here.
Your "why does it matter if" and resting your argument on it. I don't see it. Why wouldn't Israel negotiate about hostage release? It has done so in the past successfully. Hamas isn't pulling a wildcard here.
Looking at Israeli public opinion, it seems that no one believes this is a good way to handle the hostage situation. We can talk about Hamas lying all day but it's quite likely true that hostages have died in Israeli bombing of Gaza itself. Again, Israel has a bigger goal here that goes beyond those hostages. Their own governments are betraying them, it's not fair. Israel's actions indicate that their concern for the wellbeing of those hostages is not genuine.
Internally, Netanyahu can't afford to reject any semi reasonable offer. He also wants to be able to say he did anything positive. He'll hopefully be crucified no matter what, but in his eyes nothing is his fault and he's working hard at getting points for any achievement and blaming everything and anyone in the past millenia.
you make everything look simple. I'm slightly fascinated. then I get back into reality and I remember there's a cruel, blind war, and huge interests and plans going far over the borders of Isreal and Gaza.
the spiraling hate between parts? ah! silly them! "why they don't just..."
It's not simple. But it does demonstrate hamas is lying about their willingness to release two hostages no strings attached.
again you're oversimplifying things, with these black and white statements. extremely dangerous, extremely...
How are they not lying? If they want to release two hostages they have a variety of options that don't involve Israel. They could drop them off at the Egyptian border, they could drop them off at the Red Cross, they could drop them off at any of the UN compounds.
They're unwillingness to release two hostages is completely on them. For them to try to blame Israel is disingenuous, and clearly a lie.
But I'm open to being wrong, how is Hamas prevented from releasing two hostages right now? What prevents them from dropping them off at the Red Cross or any of the UN compounds right now today?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/five-red-cross-red-crescent-staffers-killed-in-armed-hostilities-in-israel-gaza/3016053
That site blocks my country. So I can't read the article.
But yes everything in Gaza has danger. But they could publicize the fact that they're dropping off at the Red Cross, post a video, live stream it, whatever. It would show the willing and it's not dependent on Israel
Here's the first 2 sentences.
I understand it's not the whole article but please try to extrapolate with the information given
Edit: Or like... you could def read enough from that URL that you could google it yourself if you actually cared...
Yes. I agree. It's a war crime. It's terrible. But it has nothing to do with Hamas releasing hostages. They could release them to the UN, or the Red Cross. The incumbent danger of the war zone doesn't change. They could get the credit for releasing the hostages even if a bombing later destroys the Red Cross building.
What purpose does it serve to ignore all context around Hamas and the hostages, and focus only on them?
People on this thread have recounted so many examples to you.
Red Cross staff are bombed and killed. Ambulances are unsafe. The Rafah crosspoint is unsafe. Even if Hamas hands them over to the Red Cross or to anyone there is a big chance they will be killed by Israel "by mistake". It's Israel's own citizens, plus the internationals, which it's swearing to protect and bring back safe and yet they don't even want to open any kind of channel to negotiate with Hamas.
Yes, Hamas is wrong to take non-military hostages, but none of that absolves Israel from its behavior.
So to reiterate
It has a lot to do with Israel.
You can see numerous examples of why this is a bad idea and not easily done.
We seem to be stuck talking in circles.
One of the belligerents released a statement that was demonstrably false in of itself. Pointing out that one of the belligerence is lying, is not taking a side
The other belligerent also has many issues. But pointing out their lying is also not taking a
We have to use our critical thinking skills at all times, and point out when either side lies to us, the documentation of the lies is useful for reconciliation after the war when the populations have to live together.
Getting stuck in a cycle saying what about what about what about, doesn't change anything. If one side is lying to us we need to dispassionately, and critically point that out. I've done that to the best of my ability, I apologize if my logic wasn't clear, if you would like to point out any of my logical fallacies I'm happy to work with you on that
The emotional reaction around the war is terrible, but I don't want to get involved in emotions when we're dissecting a clear and blatant lie by one of the parties.
Honestly resting your entire argument on, "why won't hamas just release them themselves mmkay?" is the one that got people going into circles. Your question has been answered in numerous different ways and yet you seem stuck on it.
No problem, but no one is talking about that, they are instead addressing your single flawed talking point. Hope that makes it clearer.
You're not giving an honest answer. How can you release a hostage to somewhere that isn't safe? Why not just release them inside Gaza 2 minutes from the building where their being held? What if they get attacked on the way to release the hostage?
Your answer is cute and works for middle school dodgeball but doesn't work in a world where governments actively engage in disinformation campaigns
They have the options of releasing hostages. They could live stream the entire thing. They could bring a reporter along. They could demonstrate their intention.
And yes there's active bombings, but the probability is they would be able to make it to a UN compound, or the Red Cross.
The fact that they were able to release two hostages I believe it was yesterday, through the Red Cross, demonstrates they can.
I only take issue with the fact that they said they were unable to release hostages without Israeli support. Clearly that's not true, as they demonstrated yesterday by the release of two hostages to the Red Cross
With what internet my guy? Gaza's sole power station ran out of fuel on the 11th. Any backups are being used for hospitals.
Alright and what happens with the reporter, the red cross workers and the hostages are murdered in a knife attack 45 minutes after being dropped off by Hamas? Who are you blaming? Who is the global theater blaming? Realistically there is no live streaming anymore so if no one uploads the footage later how are you even gonna know this happened?
can != should. Could yesterday != can today.
How did they not have Israeli support?
I think that trying to rationalize the behavior of two xenophobic, nationalist, religious fundamentalist far right parties it's just a sterile exercise, often practiced (can't rightly say if that's your will, too) to leave out of the discourse one of these two parties, to implicitly side with one of them. that's all I have to say. have a good day
Have a good day.
I think we've demonstrated conclusively hamas's lying at least about this.
Israel's lying about many things as well, but that's not what the articles about.
I welcome you to show me where my logic is incorrect any time in the future when you have the bandwidth.
let's see if I'm going to regret this
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-23/ty-article/.premium/two-elderly-israeli-women-released-from-hamas-captivity-after-17-days/0000018b-5e18-d307-adbb-7f387a240000
That's great. I'm glad they released two hostages.
I can't read the article, I don't have an account on that site and I hit the paywall.
I'm genuinely happy to hostages were released.
https://archive.ph/ZJnM9 I was able to read the article. It looks like they dropped off the hostages at the Red Cross.
ok, long story short. two people were released, red cross helped. hamas got these points hit:
the narrative, all that matters is the narrative. hamas seem they started getting this concept...
so, did I show you why you and your deductions were wrong all the way? do you understand why hamas, Netanyahu govt and everyone else (you included?) is trying to push a narrative? do you understand now why it's a terrible attitude?
justify either party, and one might get some blood on themself.
No, this proves I was right The entire time.
Okay let's start over from the beginning
A. Hamas makes a statement, they want to release hostages no strings attached, Israel won't let them ao they can't.
B. Hamas is saying they have no ability to release hostages without Israeli assistance
C. The UN, and the Red Cross, operate inside of the Gaza strip
D. Hamas has access to the Egyptian border
Hamas statement is a lie, because point b contradicts point c and d.
Hamas statement is a lie because point a is contradicted by the contradiction and point b.
In war everybody lies, I fully acknowledge that, but here we have a statement that is self-contradictory in itself. Pointing out that this is a lie is not taking a side, it's pointing out that this is a lie.
If people wanted to say the initial release of two US hostages, had some consideration for Hamas, and they were trying to hint that they wanted the same consideration again to release two Israeli hostages. Fine. But their statement would still be a lie, when they said they didn't want anything to release these hostages for humanitarian reasons.
The fact that today, I guess yesterday now, they released hostages via the Red Cross is great. But it doesn't change the fact they were lying earlier. They don't need Israeli cooperation to release hostages as they've just demonstrated.
.
Not constantly, not every minute. Get them close to the border and then tell Egypt they're there. Tell the press they're there
Or released to the Red Cross, or the UN inside of The Gaza strip.
I'm unemployed I'm going to respond to every single message you post replying to me.
I asked you this already, don't be dishonest, with what internet? With what electricity?
What press my guy? They kicked aljazera out and bombed the AP building a few years ago with no evidence given. They've killed 23 journalists since the beginning of the month
There are reporters for Al Jazeera and other organizations in the Gaza strip. Charging a cell phone, using satellite internet, all things available to a government.
And if not the government, the UN in Red Cross have communication capabilities.
Israel kicked Al Jazeera out of there Israeli offices, Al Jazeera still has reporters in the Gaza strip, you just have to go to their web page and see their daily reports
Israel's killing a lot of journalists it's true, and there are journalists there because it's important, there are journalists there because their Palestinian they can't leave. Media is still getting out
https://www.aljazeera.com/tag/israel-palestine-conflict/
But let's take your point to its logical conclusion, how could Hamas tell us that they're unable to release hostages if they don't have access to the internet?
Yes, I didn't say they revoked the journalists citizenship. Israel bombed the AP building 2 years ago. Israel has bombed a bunch of hospitals and ambulances. Israel is killing humanitarian aid.
The UN wasn't able to get in for like 3 days after a ceasefire on the border was negotiated. These are not realistic suggestions.
You only need wired electricity to (record a video and) tell us they're unable to release hostages. Showing a livestream of them releasing hostages requires mobile internet+electricity and requires at least one additional point of internet+(wired) electricity (the tower to broadcast the phone signal).
I'll grant you the logistics behind a live stream would be interesting in a war zone.
But they do have the capability to communicate their activities, to get hostages to be picked up quickly by either Egypt, the Red Cross, or the UN.
If you can admit that then I can admit that dropping them off with the Red Cross and taking photos of the release and airdropping them to like 20 homies (or like 2 journalists) should provide enough evidence to be recovered in case of disaster.
But with how quickly disinformation is spread, with the asymmetric technical capabilities, with the fact that 2 hostages were just released safely with no issue, I don't blame Hamas for trying to do this as safely as possible.
Source on Egypt bombing the border crossings cuz I'm pretty sure that's Israel?
Yeah Egypt's not bombing the border. I don't know where you got that impression, but that's definitely not something I said
Well because if you've been paying attention at all it's very clear that it isn't safe to cross the border because someone is not allowing it
Yeah it's dangerous. But I didn't say Egypt was bombing the border.
You're not disagreeing that someone is though
Israel is bombing the Rafah border crossing. They've even published reports saying they've done it.
I never said Egypt was. This whole discussion started when you said I said that Egypt was bombing the border crossing. Something I've never said.
Remember, the first casualty of war is the truth.
Yeah - I find this especially fucked up, when I watched that Interview with that Hamas Leader that straight out denied that any Israelian civilians were attacked, he said that the attackers were instructed not to attack civilians - while on the other Hand there were First Person Videos that live-streamed the massacre into the world.
I guess Hamas got a lot of bad PR from killing those civilians, in their own „peer groups“.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Interview with that Hamas Leader
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I believe there were videos but have you seen any? Have they been verified by 3rd parties? if so can you link them?
I memba
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/21/hamas-says-israel-refused-to-receive-2-hostages-israel-calls-it-propaganda
Here's the Al Jazeera article covering basically the same thing, they even quote a politician saying Hamas could just release the prisoners to the Red Cross or the UN, if they didn't want anything in return.
And they released the first two to them
Edit: lol thanks for downvoting a fact.
They released two US citizens (they might actually live in the US, not just hold a passport). They treat the hostages with US citizenship differently. It has nothing to do with Israel and probably everything to do with not wanting the US to get involved
We down vote not the Fact, we downvote your BS. If you want to blame Isreal then atleast get yourself together and take one of the many real resons to blame them. There are so many and you just sucked up one which might actually be a lie. Pathetic.
I think that's BS. All I said was repeat something that's already on the fucking news. How am I blaming Israel "for a non-real reason"? I think you and others read waaaaay too much into a comment that isn't even 8 words long.
All I meant with that goddamn comment is to say "Yes, but there is news that they released two already". I think what's pathetic is reading too much into a person's comment without need.
Emotions are flying high with this, civilians are dying as we argue over fucking BS.
I've read lots of your other comments here and they were filled to the brim with world-class-high-density-double-distilled-propaganda-flavoured BS. So thats what I'm talking about.
I think you don't have anything good or convincing to say so you just generally describe my words in a dumb way. Have a wonderful day/evening, I don't give two fucks. Hamas released two hostages, this isn't a "lie".
I was responding to the person who asked "why don't they release them to the red cross", and all I answered with was news.
Says the one getting ratioed.
Doesn't matter.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
JERUSALEM, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Israel on Saturday described as "propaganda" a claim by Hamas that the militant group had wanted to release two more hostages on humanitarian grounds but that Israel declined to receive them.
Abu Ubaida, spokesman for Hamas' armed wing, said it informed Qatar of the group's intention to release the two additional people on Friday, the same day it freed Americans Judith Tai Ranaan and her daughter Natalie.
In a later statement, Abu Ubaida said Hamas was ready to free the two people on Sunday "using the same procedures" involved in the release of Judith and Natalie.
The Palestinian group captured around 210 people during its deadly assault in southern Israel on Oct. 7.
In a brief statement, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said: "We will not refer to false propaganda by Hamas."
The statement added: "We will continue to act in every way to return all the kidnapped and missing people home."
The original article contains 168 words, the summary contains 158 words. Saved 6%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Both sides are wankers. Can't trust any of them.