Former Republican Ethan Grey explains what Republicans really want
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit:
There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
—Frank Wilhoit
Then much of progressivism is actually conservative, or at least very similar (social norms often replace law here).
The word "progressive" is the wrong word choice here, but you are definitely following the bread trail toward the right conclusion. ;-)
Can you explain more? I think I get what you mean, but I can’t think of examples.
The dynamic of "oppressed" and "privileged" groups contains elements of this, where the "oppressed" groups are protected and not bound, while the "privileged" groups are bound and not protected. Scare quotes are used primarily because some groups that I would say are oppressed are sometimes deemed privileged.
When you bring up the "dynamic of oppressed and privileged groups" are you referring to Marxism, and Marx's idea that all of history is the history of class struggles between oppressors and oppressed?
I can understand deciding that such a belief would compel Marx's followers (though not necessarily progressives) to be constantly on the lookout for oppressors and oppressed. But firstly, I'm not convinced that the above action -- identifying an oppressor -- is sufficient for a group marked as oppressors to face discrimination. And secondly, I'm not convinced that progressivism requires a class conscious (aka Marxist) lens. So, if you don't mind elaborating on your beliefs, I would appreciate if you answered these questions.
My Questions
Regarding Marxists: must Marxists discriminate? Once a Marxist has identified an oppressed group and an oppressor group, must the Marxist thereafter be compelled to attempt discrimination against the "oppressors" ?
Regarding Marxists again: can Marxists see an entire race as an oppressor class? Marx reiterated numerous times that ever since capitalism overthrew feudalism, there have been only two classes -- capitalists and workers. If one went about adding more oppressor classes and oppressed classes, wouldn't that contradict one of Marxism's core beliefs? How can one believe entire races are oppressor classes without abandoning the entire basis for class theory?
Regarding progressives this time: must progressives believe in class conflict in the first place? After reading or skimming the Wikipedia page for progressivism do you believe that the progressivism described therein absolutely must require a Marxist lens? I'm including an excerpt from the page below, along with why I find the connection hard to see.
Excerpts from the Wikipedia page in question:
Excerpt 1:
As a political movement, progressivism seeks to advance the human condition through social reform based on purported advancements in science, technology, economic development, and social organization...
Excerpt 2:
In the 21st century, progressives continue to favor public policy that they theorize will reduce or lessen the harmful effects of economic inequality as well as systemic discrimination such as institutional racism; to advocate for social safety nets and workers' rights; and to oppose corporate influence on the democratic process. The unifying theme is to call attention to the negative impacts of current institutions or ways of doing things and to advocate for social progress, i.e., for positive change as defined by any of several standards such as the expansion of democracy, increased egalitarianism in the form of economic and social equality as well as improved well being of a population. Proponents of social democracy have identified themselves as promoting the progressive cause.
As you can see, there is scant mention of oppressor or oppressed. Nor does the Encyclopedia Britannica fill the void -- it doesn't even mention the words "class", "oppressor", "oppression", or "oppressed" . In fact, the only mention of class conflict in either Wikipedia or Britannica is when the Wikipedia page mentions that early progressives (around the time of Teddy Roosevelt) believed a "good education, a safe environment, and an efficient workplace" were sufficient in stemming -- or even circumventing -- class conflict.
Given the above, one could argue that progressivism is equally as compatible with Marxist theory as it is with anti-Marxism. It's even feasible that progressives could outright reject the idea of classes and still retain every aspect of progressivism laid out in this definition.
Am I missing something? Am I not reading Wikipedia or Britannica closely enough?
Can you give a specific example? Christians, homosexuals, gun owners? I think the article deals with white male hierarchy, are they oppressed AND privileged?
Jews are the group I was thinking of. A lot of left-wing anti-Zionism leans into antisemitism, justified by a false sense that Jews are privileged.
Wait are you talking the center right leftist in the United States or actual left leftists. Because the former isn't really a thing. And even the latter is a pretty specious claim. I mean I could definitely see a few communists etc being upset with bankers and capitalists in general. But that =!= Jews/antisemitism.
Well, nazbols exist but I can't say that there's enough of them to really qualify. Maybe in eastern Europe? I've heard its a more common ideology there. I wouldn't really call them leftists though
Are you referring to Ilhan Omar here? (as I see it, her remarks are possible to interpret however the listener pleases. And that includes antisemitism but it also includes anti-what-Omar-sees-as-oppression.)
More Jeremy Corbyn here, but yeah. her as well.
Wouldn’t that make them intrinsically conservative and not actual leftist/progressives? There are pro-life homosexuals.
Yep, republicans hate Americans and want to control every aspect of our lives. They hate freedom, whenever they see anyone expressing their liberty in a way they themselves wouldn’t they want to ban it.
Was that post related to politics? I find sovereign citizens fascinating.
Indeed, it was a post over on kbin titled “Nearly a quarter of Republicans say classified docs charges make them more likely to support Trump: poll” https://kbin.social/m/politics/t/160848
Republicans are for small government? What? Hahaha are they minarchists now? Lololol
Wow, you guys need to touch some grass
Funny you mention touching grass. Michael Parenti dedicates an entire chapter about how marijuana was used by Nixon to galvanize white moderates against the hippies during the Vietnam War in “Blackshirts and Reds.” You can even read it outside… on the grass.
I thought it was all about "sticking it to Mexico."
ok
No, it isn't.
In your opinion, what is it then?
Heh, see, the user you replied to is doing the thing. A rational and logical argument that leads you towards a specific conclusion. That sounds a lot like being told what to do. Their response was essentially “you can’t tell me what to do”.
My journey into trying to understand the conservative ideology began after Trump. I wanted to know what makes them tick. After exploring, I settled on Religion/Racism. But something wasn’t right. Which led me to authoritarianism and hierarchy. That was it. But why preserve hierarchy? Which led me to social dynamics and capitalism. What baffles me is that most are unaware that this is what they are preserving.
I had a similar journey, around the same time. As an engineer, I tried to evaluate the situation in the same way that I’d analyze a system failure - that is, by conducting a “5 whys” (otherwise known as an RCA) in an attempt to drill down to the true root cause. I came to the exact same conclusions, along pretty much the same lines of investigation and research.
Fascinating. Good to know I’m not the only one. I try to tell others about it, but they make me feel like a leper.
Lol are you me?
I’ve been low key trying to broach the subject with my family for fucking YEARS, and until about a month ago, nobody seemed concerned at all. I’d try to build a logical argument, and get shut down by “oh our society and government has guardrails for these sorts of things”.
Like, ok, fine. Let’s for the sake of argument assume that’s true (though I think at this point, that’s been decisively disproven). Tell me what the guardrails are, and let’s discuss how effective they’ve been at limiting authoritarian oversteps by one particular political party (and yes, I’m also very done tiptoeing around the fact that there is one political party that’s turning into overt fascists, and that the party in question is the GOP).
Answer: our guardrails haven’t been effectively guarding anything. The only reason January 6th wasn’t a successful coup by the Republican Party is because a handful of people were like “ok this is a little too fucked up for me to go all in on”. We CANNOT rely on the ethics of a half dozen or so bureaucrats slamming on the brakes next time, because next time, they’re going to replace all the people with a semblance of ethics with people who don’t have any ethics before they go for it.
I’m glad people are starting to actually see and understand what’s been going on with the seriousness it deserves, but it still feels like it’s too few people, and they’re not realizing it fast enough. We’ll see how this all pans out in a few years, I guess..
I’m pessimistic in the short term, but optimistic for the future. I don’t think the current iteration of fascism can be stopped (hope I’m wrong). We’re not taught this stuff in schools, by design. And people don’t have the educational foundation nor the psychological ability to break down why we do what we do. On January 6, I laughed because they were doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
To add: this is why my comment history is so cynical. All the posts about Trump, DeSantis, etc. aren’t getting to the root cause, just noise.
If you have any idea on how to get from here to there, let me know. I’ve been listening to David McRaney recently, he has some good ideas about how to talk to the less aware.
It’s almost as if we’re in something a lot like the Star Trek timeline. I’ve been watching through DS9 again, and a couple days ago got to Past Tense, which deals with the (in universe) 2024 Bell Riots in San Francisco. And it’s SUPER weird to watch, because the “sanctuary districts” (where the riots start) are basically just homeless encampments that they built walls around (so, ghettos). And the episode fairly pointedly also deals with wealth inequality, rampant late stage capitalism, the collapse of social safety nets, which overlaps with most of the serious societal issues we’re dealing with today IRL.
So yeah, hopefully deeper into the future everyone will be like “wow that sucked, glad we’re past that”. But I have a pretty strong suspicion that the next few decades are gonna absolutely suck to live through.
You’d like the Expanse. It’s mostly in space the first season, but deals with the inequality and walled cities in the second season. Mars becomes the economic center,has the better military, and Earth gets left behind. There’s also a one world government, scarily prescient. Always thought Jeff Sessions looked like Quark.
Oh 100% - I’ve read the books, and watched the series. Both are a ton of fun, and really interesting.
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. —Frank Wilhoit
Then much of progressivism is actually conservative, or at least very similar (social norms often replace law here).
The word "progressive" is the wrong word choice here, but you are definitely following the bread trail toward the right conclusion. ;-)
Can you explain more? I think I get what you mean, but I can’t think of examples.
The dynamic of "oppressed" and "privileged" groups contains elements of this, where the "oppressed" groups are protected and not bound, while the "privileged" groups are bound and not protected. Scare quotes are used primarily because some groups that I would say are oppressed are sometimes deemed privileged.
When you bring up the "dynamic of oppressed and privileged groups" are you referring to Marxism, and Marx's idea that all of history is the history of class struggles between oppressors and oppressed?
I can understand deciding that such a belief would compel Marx's followers (though not necessarily progressives) to be constantly on the lookout for oppressors and oppressed. But firstly, I'm not convinced that the above action -- identifying an oppressor -- is sufficient for a group marked as oppressors to face discrimination. And secondly, I'm not convinced that progressivism requires a class conscious (aka Marxist) lens. So, if you don't mind elaborating on your beliefs, I would appreciate if you answered these questions.
My Questions
Excerpts from the Wikipedia page in question:
Excerpt 1:
Excerpt 2:
As you can see, there is scant mention of oppressor or oppressed. Nor does the Encyclopedia Britannica fill the void -- it doesn't even mention the words "class", "oppressor", "oppression", or "oppressed" . In fact, the only mention of class conflict in either Wikipedia or Britannica is when the Wikipedia page mentions that early progressives (around the time of Teddy Roosevelt) believed a "good education, a safe environment, and an efficient workplace" were sufficient in stemming -- or even circumventing -- class conflict.
Given the above, one could argue that progressivism is equally as compatible with Marxist theory as it is with anti-Marxism. It's even feasible that progressives could outright reject the idea of classes and still retain every aspect of progressivism laid out in this definition.
Am I missing something? Am I not reading Wikipedia or Britannica closely enough?
Can you give a specific example? Christians, homosexuals, gun owners? I think the article deals with white male hierarchy, are they oppressed AND privileged?
Jews are the group I was thinking of. A lot of left-wing anti-Zionism leans into antisemitism, justified by a false sense that Jews are privileged.
Wait are you talking the center right leftist in the United States or actual left leftists. Because the former isn't really a thing. And even the latter is a pretty specious claim. I mean I could definitely see a few communists etc being upset with bankers and capitalists in general. But that =!= Jews/antisemitism.
Well, nazbols exist but I can't say that there's enough of them to really qualify. Maybe in eastern Europe? I've heard its a more common ideology there. I wouldn't really call them leftists though
Are you referring to Ilhan Omar here? (as I see it, her remarks are possible to interpret however the listener pleases. And that includes antisemitism but it also includes anti-what-Omar-sees-as-oppression.)
More Jeremy Corbyn here, but yeah. her as well.
Wouldn’t that make them intrinsically conservative and not actual leftist/progressives? There are pro-life homosexuals.
Yep, republicans hate Americans and want to control every aspect of our lives. They hate freedom, whenever they see anyone expressing their liberty in a way they themselves wouldn’t they want to ban it.
The same line of thought is quoted in a noteworthy article (archived) by Cory Doctorow.
This goes quite nicely with the post where I learned about Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
Was that post related to politics? I find sovereign citizens fascinating.
Indeed, it was a post over on kbin titled “Nearly a quarter of Republicans say classified docs charges make them more likely to support Trump: poll” https://kbin.social/m/politics/t/160848
Republicans are for small government? What? Hahaha are they minarchists now? Lololol
Wow, you guys need to touch some grass
Funny you mention touching grass. Michael Parenti dedicates an entire chapter about how marijuana was used by Nixon to galvanize white moderates against the hippies during the Vietnam War in “Blackshirts and Reds.” You can even read it outside… on the grass.
I thought it was all about "sticking it to Mexico."
ok
No, it isn't.
In your opinion, what is it then?
Heh, see, the user you replied to is doing the thing. A rational and logical argument that leads you towards a specific conclusion. That sounds a lot like being told what to do. Their response was essentially “you can’t tell me what to do”.
My journey into trying to understand the conservative ideology began after Trump. I wanted to know what makes them tick. After exploring, I settled on Religion/Racism. But something wasn’t right. Which led me to authoritarianism and hierarchy. That was it. But why preserve hierarchy? Which led me to social dynamics and capitalism. What baffles me is that most are unaware that this is what they are preserving.
I had a similar journey, around the same time. As an engineer, I tried to evaluate the situation in the same way that I’d analyze a system failure - that is, by conducting a “5 whys” (otherwise known as an RCA) in an attempt to drill down to the true root cause. I came to the exact same conclusions, along pretty much the same lines of investigation and research.
Fascinating. Good to know I’m not the only one. I try to tell others about it, but they make me feel like a leper.
Lol are you me?
I’ve been low key trying to broach the subject with my family for fucking YEARS, and until about a month ago, nobody seemed concerned at all. I’d try to build a logical argument, and get shut down by “oh our society and government has guardrails for these sorts of things”.
Like, ok, fine. Let’s for the sake of argument assume that’s true (though I think at this point, that’s been decisively disproven). Tell me what the guardrails are, and let’s discuss how effective they’ve been at limiting authoritarian oversteps by one particular political party (and yes, I’m also very done tiptoeing around the fact that there is one political party that’s turning into overt fascists, and that the party in question is the GOP).
Answer: our guardrails haven’t been effectively guarding anything. The only reason January 6th wasn’t a successful coup by the Republican Party is because a handful of people were like “ok this is a little too fucked up for me to go all in on”. We CANNOT rely on the ethics of a half dozen or so bureaucrats slamming on the brakes next time, because next time, they’re going to replace all the people with a semblance of ethics with people who don’t have any ethics before they go for it.
I’m glad people are starting to actually see and understand what’s been going on with the seriousness it deserves, but it still feels like it’s too few people, and they’re not realizing it fast enough. We’ll see how this all pans out in a few years, I guess..
I’m pessimistic in the short term, but optimistic for the future. I don’t think the current iteration of fascism can be stopped (hope I’m wrong). We’re not taught this stuff in schools, by design. And people don’t have the educational foundation nor the psychological ability to break down why we do what we do. On January 6, I laughed because they were doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
To add: this is why my comment history is so cynical. All the posts about Trump, DeSantis, etc. aren’t getting to the root cause, just noise.
If you have any idea on how to get from here to there, let me know. I’ve been listening to David McRaney recently, he has some good ideas about how to talk to the less aware.
It’s almost as if we’re in something a lot like the Star Trek timeline. I’ve been watching through DS9 again, and a couple days ago got to Past Tense, which deals with the (in universe) 2024 Bell Riots in San Francisco. And it’s SUPER weird to watch, because the “sanctuary districts” (where the riots start) are basically just homeless encampments that they built walls around (so, ghettos). And the episode fairly pointedly also deals with wealth inequality, rampant late stage capitalism, the collapse of social safety nets, which overlaps with most of the serious societal issues we’re dealing with today IRL.
So yeah, hopefully deeper into the future everyone will be like “wow that sucked, glad we’re past that”. But I have a pretty strong suspicion that the next few decades are gonna absolutely suck to live through.
You’d like the Expanse. It’s mostly in space the first season, but deals with the inequality and walled cities in the second season. Mars becomes the economic center,has the better military, and Earth gets left behind. There’s also a one world government, scarily prescient. Always thought Jeff Sessions looked like Quark.
Oh 100% - I’ve read the books, and watched the series. Both are a ton of fun, and really interesting.
Amos is the best, btw :D
The books intimidated me
What thing? I didn't put nearly as much thought into my comment as you think I did.
That much is patently obvious
I’d be interested if you did put some thought into it. I genuinely want to know what you think 🤔