Does getting paid still counts as "sans coercion" though ?
There's a huge difference between picking up a streetwalker, going to a legal brothel, or answering a personal ad in places like Canada where it's a grey area if it's legal
Like, off the street there's probably some coercion somewhere, legal brothel it's less likely they're forced to do it but it might still be trafficking but there's likely at least some form of oversight, and personal ads are a total crapshoot. It might be someone who's selective and just making some money, it might be someone that has to accept every offer.
When things arent 100% legal, some shady is statistically just going to happen. You can't regulate an illegal business.
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
The thing is we can't know because it's illegal in most places.
There's some who only take clients they're attracted to anyways and manage to pull in a lot of money.
There's some that if they dont make X amount of money a night, they'll get beat.
Anyone that claims to know how much are in each group are pulling numbers out of their ass. And people that act like they're all the same are usually using the services of people who are forced into it.
Not all sex work is equal ethically.
But generally speaking, the less legal it is, the worse they're treated. Because they have no legal recourse if they're mistreated
Also like, people work dangerous jobs where they DIE because they need to money to pay rent and buy food, so only caring about sex workers is kind of fucked up.
Pretty sure truck driver is the most dangerous job in the world.
Perhaps you shouldn't just guess but actually look it up.
Data is tough to come by. Truck driver is the most dangerous LEGAL job, 2-3 times as dangerous as the next most dangerous job. But getting data on illegal jobs is very difficult for obvious reasons.
In other words, I did look it up.
In Germany the majority (about 95 %) of sex workers are people from the poorest countries of EU. Because of the high demand and the amount of money you can make with brothels there is also an increase in trafficking from countries outside of the EU.
Regulated does not mean people weren’t pressured into it. Telling a young single mother from a poor country that most of her problems will vanish if she just works as a sex worker for a few years in Germany is legal and regulated. It’s not trafficking and not really coercion either. She will get a social security number, pay taxes, get health care, all that stuff she perhaps won’t get at home.
What do you think she will tell you if you ask her whether she is doing the job freely and if she wants to keep the job? Of course she will say yes.
But is it really just like any other job? The fact that sex workers in countries where it is regulated still suffer disproportionately from mental health problems, alcohol and drug abuse tells a different story.
Do you really feel like you’re coercing a waitress when you tip?
This is an interesting analogy. I do get the sense that many waitresses and waiters hate their job, and do it because of lack of other options. However I do feel that by using their services and paying them, I'm helping them. They've made this choice, under a certain amount of coercion from the circumstances and system (which most of us suffer from to some degree, working because we have to), but my helping them get paid is helping them. I do find it important to be nice to them and treat them as real people, even moreso than people with whom my interaction is on a more equal footing.
However there is nuance here in matters of degree. I think I can tell when a place treats their staff well or shittily--it tends to slow in their attitude. I prefer not to patronize a place when I get that shitty vibe.
It's interesting to think about how this translates to sex work. If I used such services, I would want to feel like the person I paid somewhat enjoyed her job.
Does waiting tables and having sex with strangers feel similar to you? These jobs aren’t comparable from a psychological standpoint. I never heard that it’s common for waiters to be substance users or have PTSD.
Weirdly enough, restaurant workers are some of the highest substance users group. A Google search on this subject is quite surprising.
It's not even close to sex workers which have the highest amount of substance abuse among all professions.
I suppose it depends on how desperate someone is for money. I am in an industry where client relationships are important, but more money will not make my hard no a yes
Indeed, as I clarified under another comment
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
That I cannot say, and seeing as in the vast majority of the US it is illegal, all we have is supposition unfortunately
Labor as coerced selling of one’s body is an interesting view.
That's literally all work in capitalism. You use your time and body to do things for other people in exchange for money. We're all prostitutes, only a few of us have sex for it.
Does getting paid still counts as "sans coercion" though ?
There's a huge difference between picking up a streetwalker, going to a legal brothel, or answering a personal ad in places like Canada where it's a grey area if it's legal
Like, off the street there's probably some coercion somewhere, legal brothel it's less likely they're forced to do it but it might still be trafficking but there's likely at least some form of oversight, and personal ads are a total crapshoot. It might be someone who's selective and just making some money, it might be someone that has to accept every offer.
When things arent 100% legal, some shady is statistically just going to happen. You can't regulate an illegal business.
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
The thing is we can't know because it's illegal in most places.
There's some who only take clients they're attracted to anyways and manage to pull in a lot of money.
There's some that if they dont make X amount of money a night, they'll get beat.
Anyone that claims to know how much are in each group are pulling numbers out of their ass. And people that act like they're all the same are usually using the services of people who are forced into it.
Not all sex work is equal ethically.
But generally speaking, the less legal it is, the worse they're treated. Because they have no legal recourse if they're mistreated
Also like, people work dangerous jobs where they DIE because they need to money to pay rent and buy food, so only caring about sex workers is kind of fucked up.
Sex work is the most dangerous job in the world. They have a higher number of victims of violence and PTSD than any other profession. For PTSD only war veterans have similar results.
Pretty sure truck driver is the most dangerous job in the world.
Perhaps you shouldn't just guess but actually look it up.
Data is tough to come by. Truck driver is the most dangerous LEGAL job, 2-3 times as dangerous as the next most dangerous job. But getting data on illegal jobs is very difficult for obvious reasons.
In other words, I did look it up.
In Germany the majority (about 95 %) of sex workers are people from the poorest countries of EU. Because of the high demand and the amount of money you can make with brothels there is also an increase in trafficking from countries outside of the EU.
Regulated does not mean people weren’t pressured into it. Telling a young single mother from a poor country that most of her problems will vanish if she just works as a sex worker for a few years in Germany is legal and regulated. It’s not trafficking and not really coercion either. She will get a social security number, pay taxes, get health care, all that stuff she perhaps won’t get at home.
What do you think she will tell you if you ask her whether she is doing the job freely and if she wants to keep the job? Of course she will say yes.
But is it really just like any other job? The fact that sex workers in countries where it is regulated still suffer disproportionately from mental health problems, alcohol and drug abuse tells a different story.
Do you really feel like you’re coercing a waitress when you tip?
This is an interesting analogy. I do get the sense that many waitresses and waiters hate their job, and do it because of lack of other options. However I do feel that by using their services and paying them, I'm helping them. They've made this choice, under a certain amount of coercion from the circumstances and system (which most of us suffer from to some degree, working because we have to), but my helping them get paid is helping them. I do find it important to be nice to them and treat them as real people, even moreso than people with whom my interaction is on a more equal footing.
However there is nuance here in matters of degree. I think I can tell when a place treats their staff well or shittily--it tends to slow in their attitude. I prefer not to patronize a place when I get that shitty vibe.
It's interesting to think about how this translates to sex work. If I used such services, I would want to feel like the person I paid somewhat enjoyed her job.
Does waiting tables and having sex with strangers feel similar to you? These jobs aren’t comparable from a psychological standpoint. I never heard that it’s common for waiters to be substance users or have PTSD.
Weirdly enough, restaurant workers are some of the highest substance users group. A Google search on this subject is quite surprising.
It's not even close to sex workers which have the highest amount of substance abuse among all professions.
I suppose it depends on how desperate someone is for money. I am in an industry where client relationships are important, but more money will not make my hard no a yes
Indeed, as I clarified under another comment
That I cannot say, and seeing as in the vast majority of the US it is illegal, all we have is supposition unfortunately
Labor as coerced selling of one’s body is an interesting view.
That's literally all work in capitalism. You use your time and body to do things for other people in exchange for money. We're all prostitutes, only a few of us have sex for it.
Negotiating a price is not itself coercion.