What is your opinion on men that make use of sex worker services?

Driftking@lemmy.ml to Asklemmy@lemmy.ml – 226 points –
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I don't see a problem with it as long as no trafficking is involved.

I agree with this. I have found that most women do not however. It has been a great trouble for me, to talk about, when trying to find a new partner.

This is pretty surprising to me. In my experience (as a woman myself) women are much more likely than men to be vocally supportive of treating sex work like any other service and of breaking the taboo of offering or receiving those services.

I actually can’t think of any woman in my life who would judge someone negatively for seeing a sex worker (assuming full consent from all involved parties including partners). Most men I know would similarly have no issue with it, but a handful would read it as not being able to get laid and see that as something negative.

My social circle isn’t representative of the general population, but I’m still surprised to hear your experience is dramatically different. I wonder if the way the conversations are going make the issue more about consent, cheating, or other non-sex-work-specific ethical questions.

I think more women would be understanding to men paying for sex than men would be to women paying for it.

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You should definitely bring this up as often as possible. Enjoying coerced intimacy is totally well adjusted behavior.

Why do you hate sex workers?

Do you make use of the sex workers while in the relationship with the new partner?

Absolutely not

Then why speak of it?

I don’t talk about previous sexual partners with new ones.

For the purpose of disclosure. I just cant live with myself if I do not tell prospective partners when they ask. I know there is a difference between avoidance and lying, however, I value honesty. Not implying that you are not or should thinknas I do

Last year I shit myself while trying to open my door and get to the bathroom.

I dropped my keys while I was trying to unlock the door and ended up with shit in my shoes that I had to throw away.

I never bring that up on dates.

What an amecdote. Thank you for lightening my mind lol

I get your point, but I think that's a bit of a false equivalence. You don't tell others of stuff like this likely because it's embarrassing, but what if someone isn't embarrassed of using sex services? Is it really the same thing then?

Why would I be embarrassed about that story?

I share it with my friends because it’s fucking hilarious.

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You have an over-sharing problem.

I can't agree. I think people should have a friendship as strong as their romance.

Some things are not made to be shared. You are two different people. Leave a little mystery.

I’ve been with my partner for 27 years, so have a bit of experience to draw from.

Is it typical to give a whole run-down of your sexual history when dating? Like, I've mentioned previous encounters or exes when it comes up, but rarely near the beginning of the dating process. In my experience people tend to not have those discussions. Not because it's bad but because it doesn't matter. When I meet a new woman and start seeing them, I don't need to hear about or care about their past relationships unless it's something they feel they want to share for whatever reason.

It sounds like you don't think sex work is immoral, so I wouldn't bring it up unless it's something that would actually affect your current relationship. If sex is casual enough to commodify then it's not something that would be brought up when getting to know someone. Do you also give them a run-down of every meal you've ever bought at restaurants?

The fact that you need to "disclose" this makes it sound like you yourself see an issue with it

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OP's out there on first dates asking if they have a problem with him doing it...

I can't imagine women are bringing it up

Not necessarily first dates. I just answer truthfully when the topic comes up. I don't want to have it be a problem further down the line

I just answer truthfully when the topic comes up

It's just really hard to believe a women asks if you've had sex with a sex worker...

Most people don't ask for numbers, let alone details.

It has unfortunately come up before, hence my aprehension in approaching the topic.

Seems like you got the intended consequence. If you want to be honest and your partner can't handle that honesty, maybe it is better to keep looking. I have a very hard time maintaining lies to continue relationships, and as a result I have very few, but incredibly high-quality friends.

It’s just really hard to believe a women asks if you’ve had sex with a sex worker…

I've been asked that question, and not just one time, so I believe OP that it can sometimes come up.

Maybe because I've never lived somewhere it's legal?

Like if there were brothels in the area, maybe it would be asked more?

Perhaps. It's a legal grey area here, not strictly legal but tolerated in certain areas (red light districts), but it's certainly not a socially acceptable thing.

I ask my partners because I do not want to be with someone who pays for sex. Simply because our views on sex would be very different which leads to problems in the relationship, from my experience. Also, it would be quite dumb to lie on this because than we are both just wasting our time.

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I think the issue is the portrayal of the types of men who use such services in media. They’re usually not good people.

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So long as everyone involved consents sans coercion, I do not see why anyone else should care/be involved

This is pretty much my view on people's sexuality generally.

I don't care who's doing what to who as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.

Does getting paid still counts as "sans coercion" though ?

There's a huge difference between picking up a streetwalker, going to a legal brothel, or answering a personal ad in places like Canada where it's a grey area if it's legal

Like, off the street there's probably some coercion somewhere, legal brothel it's less likely they're forced to do it but it might still be trafficking but there's likely at least some form of oversight, and personal ads are a total crapshoot. It might be someone who's selective and just making some money, it might be someone that has to accept every offer.

When things arent 100% legal, some shady is statistically just going to happen. You can't regulate an illegal business.

Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work

The thing is we can't know because it's illegal in most places.

There's some who only take clients they're attracted to anyways and manage to pull in a lot of money.

There's some that if they dont make X amount of money a night, they'll get beat.

Anyone that claims to know how much are in each group are pulling numbers out of their ass. And people that act like they're all the same are usually using the services of people who are forced into it.

Not all sex work is equal ethically.

But generally speaking, the less legal it is, the worse they're treated. Because they have no legal recourse if they're mistreated

Also like, people work dangerous jobs where they DIE because they need to money to pay rent and buy food, so only caring about sex workers is kind of fucked up.

Sex work is the most dangerous job in the world. They have a higher number of victims of violence and PTSD than any other profession. For PTSD only war veterans have similar results.

Pretty sure truck driver is the most dangerous job in the world.

Perhaps you shouldn't just guess but actually look it up.

Data is tough to come by. Truck driver is the most dangerous LEGAL job, 2-3 times as dangerous as the next most dangerous job. But getting data on illegal jobs is very difficult for obvious reasons.

In other words, I did look it up.

In Germany the majority (about 95 %) of sex workers are people from the poorest countries of EU. Because of the high demand and the amount of money you can make with brothels there is also an increase in trafficking from countries outside of the EU.

Regulated does not mean people weren’t pressured into it. Telling a young single mother from a poor country that most of her problems will vanish if she just works as a sex worker for a few years in Germany is legal and regulated. It’s not trafficking and not really coercion either. She will get a social security number, pay taxes, get health care, all that stuff she perhaps won’t get at home.

What do you think she will tell you if you ask her whether she is doing the job freely and if she wants to keep the job? Of course she will say yes.

But is it really just like any other job? The fact that sex workers in countries where it is regulated still suffer disproportionately from mental health problems, alcohol and drug abuse tells a different story.

Do you really feel like you’re coercing a waitress when you tip?

This is an interesting analogy. I do get the sense that many waitresses and waiters hate their job, and do it because of lack of other options. However I do feel that by using their services and paying them, I'm helping them. They've made this choice, under a certain amount of coercion from the circumstances and system (which most of us suffer from to some degree, working because we have to), but my helping them get paid is helping them. I do find it important to be nice to them and treat them as real people, even moreso than people with whom my interaction is on a more equal footing.

However there is nuance here in matters of degree. I think I can tell when a place treats their staff well or shittily--it tends to slow in their attitude. I prefer not to patronize a place when I get that shitty vibe.

It's interesting to think about how this translates to sex work. If I used such services, I would want to feel like the person I paid somewhat enjoyed her job.

Does waiting tables and having sex with strangers feel similar to you? These jobs aren’t comparable from a psychological standpoint. I never heard that it’s common for waiters to be substance users or have PTSD.

Weirdly enough, restaurant workers are some of the highest substance users group. A Google search on this subject is quite surprising.

It's not even close to sex workers which have the highest amount of substance abuse among all professions.

I suppose it depends on how desperate someone is for money. I am in an industry where client relationships are important, but more money will not make my hard no a yes

Indeed, as I clarified under another comment

Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work

That I cannot say, and seeing as in the vast majority of the US it is illegal, all we have is supposition unfortunately

Labor as coerced selling of one’s body is an interesting view.

That's literally all work in capitalism. You use your time and body to do things for other people in exchange for money. We're all prostitutes, only a few of us have sex for it.

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All work is exloitation, sexual work is sexual exploitation. Its not exactly consent if the other option is being homeless or starving.

That's trie if any work, as you're saying. But then why would it be more of a problem with sex work than with any other work?

Do you feel like any other work is the same as sex work? For example does flippping burgers the same to you as having to have sex with a stranger?

What it is to me is different from what it should be. Why should it be different? You sell your body ability to provide a service.

The difference lies in the intimacy associated with sex. But then how different is it from therapy? It is physical intimacy. It is the only difference.

There is no more strain on your body than with many physical work, less actually than construction or many other work. There is no more strain on psychology than care works like therapy or nurses. Quite less actually.

The actual problem of sex work is exploitation: people are forced into this work, and this is extremely bad. This breaks a fundamental contract of liberalism. But it wouldn't be as bad if it was legal and monitored.

Thus, the problem is Christian puritanism. Sex is bad in itself in this philosophy.

Ask yourself this question : why is a woman earning money on onlyfan a bad thing, but a man earning money surveying a beach in swimsuit is perfectly fine? Actually a woman can do this too!

It's not a matter of how much skin you show or even how intimate you can be, otherwise massage or therapy wouldn't be good. It is a matter of sex and how to control it.

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I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.

However, I don't live in that world, so in the meantime I support sex workers, because sex work is work.

The men who use their services? That's a tougher nut to crack.

My partners brother is heavily mentally disabled and pushing 40, he's still very much like a child, but obviously does not have a child's libido. This man has never had an intimate interaction with a woman. He might never get the chance, he struggles to talk to women, even women who have similar issues as himself. I think sex workers could be beneficial for him, in the right context, for giving him intimacy he may otherwise never experience. I don't think he would ever think/know to pursue a sex worker, but I could be wrong. There's also the issue of his emotions began to be involved, which leads me to...

I'd be more worried about him finding OnlyFans and blowing through all his disability money each month instead of realizing he's not actually getting much out of such a "relationship." He's the kind of person who a parasocial relationship like that could really damage their already troubling mental health. The same thing could happen with a prostitute, but they are less likely to hang the relationships on fake social cues that say they care about you. He's not quite advanced enough to understand that these women are being paid to pretend to care, I don't think.

Also, there's other types of men who use these services I'm sure aren't a net positive. There are plenty of conservative men who already view a standard relationship as a sexual transaction (I take care of girl = she give me sex), so they're not far from viewing everything women with transactional already. Secondly, not only do the already view it as transactional, many of these conservative men turn to prostitutes because average women simply don't want to date them because of their horrible, outdated views on women's bodily autonomy. They are already angsty and moody because of women not wanting to date them, and they often are willing to take out their frustrations on the woman they paid to serve them. I see these men as not respecting and hurting the women they turn to for sex work.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the subject.

I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.

You see, that's the problem. You are implicitly devaluing sex work compared to other professions. You're not acknowledging that some people actually want to, and choose to do sex work. There's nothing wrong whatsoever with someone choosing prostitution, stripping, escort, etc.

Could you say your same statement about being a lawyer? A teacher? An engineer?

"I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to being an engineer."

You see how weird that sounds? So why can you say it about sex work? Do you see how derisive you're being toward it as a profession? Funny that you say you're supportive while implying that what they're doing is a last resort...🤦‍♂️

I get you point but I genuinely want to live in a world where people are not forced to turn to engineering.

I chose engineering, and when I started I loved it, but eventually I ended up working in places I didn't like, on jobs that made me feel dirty, but now I don't know any other way to maintain the lifestyle I'm accustomed to.

Have you thought about stripping?

I think the error is on your side. Nothing that OC said denies that some sex workers like and choose what they do. These exist.

But it’s doubtable that these are in majority, and nothing what you say acknowledges that many many sex workers don’t have much choice.

Check yourself dude. The mere fact that you say "it's doubtable these are in the majority" shows EXACTLY what you think of sex work. Your attitude of "ugh that's so pitiful, no one would do that willingly, they must be forced into it" is fucking offensive.

Millions of people feel stuck in their jobs and "don't feel like they have much choice." Walmart, coffee shops, data entry, whatever. But if it's sex work, all of a sudden it's something to be ashamed of?

Yeah, sure there's trafficking out there, and that is horrible. But don't conflate the two. Don't just assume that someone doing sex work is being trafficked. Just like you don't constantly assume someone doing any other job must also be a trafficked slave or something. Get it?

Pretty sure I currently have the Philippines and Thailand more in mind than you.

Written like a defensive john. Sorry she didnt enjoy fucking you bro

I wonder if there's a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn't have time or possibly doesn't want an intimate relationship.

I don't know if it's "right" that this type of person pays for sex. I think it makes sense as long as they respect the person that they're paying and understand this person does not 'belong' to them - but this last point appears to be a problem for people whenever they pay anyone for anything.

There's plenty of other types, those were just the ones I had time to write about before I pop off to work for the day.

Your comment led me towards an amusing thought: in the Harry Potter universe, goblins sell things to wizards for the duration of the wizard's life, but then they expect it to go back to the goblins because ownership works differently for them vs wizards. Wizards don't always/usually understand or respect that. So... If I ever was in the position to open a brothel, perhaps I'd name it "The Goblin's Den." I... Don't know what kind of clientele that would attract though.

I wonder if there’s a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn’t have time or possibly doesn’t want an intimate relationship.

That would be me. I work 60 hours a week most weeks. I just want regular, casual, no strings attached sex.

Unfortunately I can't actually afford sex workers, but some day...

Thank you for putting what's pretty much exactly my view on the topic into words.

I would like to add though that I expect of men using sex services to thoroughly check and make sure that the women whose service they use provide this service by their own choice, which means they are in no way forced, not by pimps but also not by financial hardship.

With this constraint I'm afraid that many if not most existing sex services are actually probably not ethical to use.

My opinion on them is the same as whatever opinion the sex workers have on them

If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?

If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?

The Nordic or neo-abolitionist model exists. Sweden was the first nation to implement it I think. Selling sex is legal, buying is not. Seems to work for them

You've got that backwards. In Sweden, buying is illegal, selling is not. Essentially turning the customer into a rapist and the seller into a victim. And rightly so! Considering that most women selling sex are doing so because of human trafficking, or at least coercion or desperation, it's cruel, immoral, and ironic that they are criminalized in the rest of the world outside of Sweden and the other countries that have followed their model.

Men who pay for sex are the driving force behind human trafficking.

I think you are agreeing with the post above yours. They said that selling sex is legal, while buying is not.

That's exactly what I said. I'll just quote myself here:

Selling sex is legal, buying is not.

Apologies. I swear I reread your comment 3 times, and each time I replaced legal with illegal in my mind. I see it now!

Seems to work for them.

Do you know something I don't? From what I hear both sex workers and johns continue to exist, just like in the old abolitionist/prohibitionist model.

The point isn't to prohibit it, it's to give the prostitute the legal advantage when reporting the john (and thereby rein in the behavior of johns with the tacit threat)

Well that's nice, but I feel like it could also be abused. What if a prostitute (which is one kind of sex worker) threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?

It'd probably be best to regulate the entire thing as a legal industry and put in place some sort of watchlist for suspected bad johns.

What if a prostitute . . . threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?

They already can and sometimes do, usually as honeypots (here I mean the criminal kind). "Blackmail is illegal" and also blackmailing someone being very dangerous are two major elements preventing it. I don't think making buying legal would be a significant factor since usually the blackmail is on the level of social standing, not getting charged with a relatively minor crime (generally a misdemeanor). Furthermore, especially because prostitution exists more in the open in these societies, the prostitute who blackmails would also have her reputation damaged quite severely, to the point that it might not be viable for her to continue her profession if it gets out that she even attempted blackmail -- to say nothing of the fact that, not to beat a dead horse, having someone who absolutely hates your guts (the victim) makes being a prostitute much more dangerous: What if this is one of the old john's friends or someone he hired to hurt you?

"The plight of the johns" is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex. Prostitutes are much more likely to be desperate -- though less likely in these countries than in a place like the US.

Well, there's some good arguments there. But making something you want people to do illegal is certainly counterintuitive and doesn't seem like a sane approach to me.

“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex.

Ah, so you do want to prohibit sex work. I get that's not what you think you're saying, but prostitutes can't exist without johns, and so it doesn't fall under "support sex workers". Now, abolishing sex work is a thing intelligent, well-meaning people argue for as well, but that's a different conversation.

No, because a) blackmail is just a very poor business model in this case and b) most people don't stand to lose that much over a misdemeanor, especially since the prostitute would also need to prove her case, the John can sue for libel if she fails to, etc. etc. Anyone scared of the fringe chance can just not go, but most people who otherwise would want to go would probably still want to go.

It's pretty straight forward, really.

stalin-gun-1stalin-gun-2

hexbear user being utterly predictable

Yeah this. And until I find out, unfortunately my mind goes to the stories I’ve heard. I know that’s uncharitable in the same way that it’d be uncharitable to do the same thing but replace sex work with grocery work or any other mundane customer service job. But yeah that’s where my mind goes

I have very mixed feelings.

On the one hand, I don't think that there's anything inherently immoral about sex work.

On the other hand, a large amount of sex work is not voluntary and consensual.

There are a few sites where (legitimate) sex workers can advertise. Prices vary considerably, but you'll typically see prices starting at $400+ for "full service". They typically have specific limits laid out, what things they do and don't do, and usually require some kind of screening for their own safety. If you go to sites where clients can review sex workers, you can find listings for $50-$100 for full-service sex work with "new girls", frequently Asian. These women--most of the people exchanging sex for money are women---in those listings do not screen clients, do not have pre-stated limits, frequently do not require the use of barriers, and always work for an "agency". It is clear to me that these are not women that are doing sex work consensually. People that frequent these sex workers are complicit in their abuse. (Willing sex workers can and do work through agencies; that makes their client screening less onerous for them. But they still have clear limits, and not rock-bottom prices.)

Given how many women, esp. at the lower end of the pricing spectrum, aren't doing sex work consensually, I would not have a good opinion of a person that chooses to use them. I could not accept someone that knew that they were trafficked and didn't care, or chose to ignore the probability that they were doing sex work involuntarily.

I would have no opinion either way about someone that chooses to use a professional domme; that, at least, is a segment of the market that's unlikely to involved trafficked victims.

We pay for everything else. A professional is a professional. Mechanic or prostitute. It's a mutual transaction. Regulate it and make sure it's safe. When ai porn blows up there going to be a lot more sex workers.

If the sex worker is consenting without duress and is being treated well (I recognize that's a big 'if') then I'm fine with it. I have no inherent objections to sex work itself so it would feel like a double standard to judge the people who use it.

Unfortunately the moral waters are muddied by the rampant trafficking, drug abuse, etc. within the industry.

And traffic and abuse is ramped up by moral muddiness. It's a vicious cycle

I find it weird that someone would want to have sex with someone who obviously does it only for money.

Now that you mention it, isn't it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that's a question of culture, but it's entertaining to think about nonetheless...

Like, there's definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I'd say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:

  • Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
  • Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
  • Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
  • Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)

I posit that there's something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?

Some people view sex as a means of expressing affection and connection, rather than as a means of having an orgasm. They would have no issue buying a sex toy to get their physical needs met, however hiring a person wouldn’t make sense to them because of the lack of emotional connection.

And some people don't view sex that way. And sex work isn't just about having an orgasm. That's what masturbation is for. My understanding is that people who frequent sex workers do it for the human connection. That doesn't mean an emotional connection, but human touch and physical intimacy are important for all human's mental health. I've heard stories from sex workers where the customer doesn't even end up wanting sex but to talk a bit and have someone hold them for a bit. Usually they prefer the respectful ones who just want sex with a human and leave though.

Rest assured, it is not necessary to explain the concept to me. I just like exploring the underlying why that leads to the how. My intention was to provide food for thought, not provoke the internet into explaining for me the joys of sharing romantic sex.

I think the reason is that for some people sex is not the same as any other activity you can do with your body and I think it’s not just culture but actually a neurobiological reaction.

It’s probably just odd because we know awfully little about how our brains, our hormones and whatever feelings are work. And sex is really one thing that taps into all three of these areas we don’t understand yet.

To give you another example, we can’t really explain why some types of torture are so devastating to us.

We value interactions differently because we intuitively want to be careful with things that could potentially influence us in major ways. Personally I believe buying sex feels so uncomfortable for some people because for them bonding and intimacy is connected with it. That clashes with buying it from a stranger. Also it seems kinda pointless or deranged then. Like buying a birthday party or a Christmas Eve with strangers.

Well sure, we can take it as a given that sex basically exists in its own special category. Biologically speaking, it's an impulse older than almost any other. I think that's self-evident enough without any need to tap into mysticism.

(Content warning: sexual violence in human history, abstract)

With that being said, it could also be argued that r-word is also deeply ingrained within human biology, particularly in the context of warfare. Even if we discount the (extensive) evidence within the anthropological record demonstrating this, there are clues baked into human physiology which seem to indicate that the human species itself is uniquely adapted to perpetrating r-word when compared amongst the other hominid species.

(Content warning concluded)

I apologize for bringing such a nasty subject up at all, but it's useful to weigh such things when talking about the deep biological roots of sex and how it makes us think/feel. I personally believe that it's too limiting to describe sex as an implicitly pure thing which only becomes wrong when certain impure people corrupt it. Please don't take that as a doomer statement! I personally see it as a triumpth that, through culture, we can collectively transform an act as ambiguous as sex into an idealized and pure expression of interpersonal love. I nevertheless do still try to be mindful of the capacity for sex to exist outside of the box we've crafted for it, though.

Do you not have a concept of personal space? Having a person you don't care for literally inside your body is rather different than serving them a meal. Do you think that forcing someone to give you a haircut is the same as forcing them to have sex?

Personally i don't understand how anyone can enjoy having sex with someone who isn't into it. The whole idea is repulsive and i think anyone who enjoys that must be very lacking in empathy.

I can tell I've struck a nerve here. I apologize for the harm that has caused. I am sorry.

And, yes. I do have a concept of personal space. I do think that forced sex is worse than a forced haircut. I understand the point you're getting at, but I would appreciate it if you didn't try to make it in such a forceful way next time. Thank you for responding.

I have considered it for exactly that reason. My family is healthy and happy except for that my wife completely lost her sex drive after childbirth and finds sex not just to be a chore but to be completely revolting.

I don't want to tear my family apart just to get laid. I'm not interested in loving some other woman or having an affair, I love my wife and my daughter and I have no need for another relationship.

However it's been years of celibacy and what I do need is sex, but without romance and with a professional who as they say "you don't pay them for the sex, you pay them to leave afterwards".

I've known sex workers who do it because they love sex, and if they're gonna be out there having a lot of sex they might as well also get loads of money from it.

To be fair, about half of them then got into drugs and started doing it to keep up their drug habit...before the drugs they were very choosy about their clients and only picked the ones they liked, but afterwards they needed more money so they dropped standards.

But the other half were just getting paid to go on dates and have sex, which is what they'd be doing anyway.

I don't hire sex workers because I don't have the money for it lol. But if I did, I'd want one like that. I have no idea how rare it is.

I don't see why it's any of my business. It's like asking what I think of men who go to the gym, or like lettuce on their sandwiches. It's just another normal thing people do in life.

Sex is a very normal everyday thing that many people need to feel fulfilled, and the sex industry is great to fill that need. People like to bone. It's none of my business, and because I'm not a Catholic from the 1800s, I don't think it's deeply wrong or sinful.

The only issue is that it's not regulated enough, there aren't enough protections in place for the workers or the customers.

Logically, if it's two consenting adults, why not?

Personally, fucking ew.

Overall, if you are single, you do you! If you have someone waiting at home, go fuckin sort yourself, never be a cheater.

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I know you probably mean prostitutes or "escorts", but aren't porn actors also sex workers? I watch porn all the time, so do a lot of people. I feel sorry for the sad sacks who aren't "allowed" to look at porn because their significant other is so goddamn insecure, the idea of their partner having their own private thoughts scares the shit out of them.

You are correct, but people treat "prostitute" like it's a slur and thereby (wittingly or not) wildly obfuscate any conversation one attempts to have about them and their clientele, etc.

If you’re paying for sex in the west, then my opinions are more nuanced and less harsh since, economically speaking, workers here are generally in a better position to choose their profession, including sex work, without any coercion other than the standard coercion of capitalism.

However, if you’re a sexpat traveling to developing and underdeveloped countries, you deserve to be thrown into the pit. Sex workers here are more likely to be poorer, desperate, pimped out, and/or trafficked by the mafia. Not to mention many are underage. There is no choice for 99% of the sex workers, or any workers. I don’t care if the age of consent there is 12, you’re still going to into the pit.

I think you are underestimating the desperation of the very poor in austerity states like the US, but you are 100% right that sexpats are scum

I don’t believe I am underestimating. Im just saying that in the west, there is a higher chance (relative to third world countries) that you can decide to become a sex worker on your own volition. Obviously there are still pimps and poverty driving the scene, but you’re likely never going to find someone in say, Vietnam or Thailand, or who just got tired of office work and decided to become a pornstar or escort.

I feel like them and a lot of other people are also underestimating the amount of sex trafficed victims that are forced into it here in the west.

I agree with you. I also want you to know that I love the expression "you deserve to be thrown into the pit." What is the pit? I don't know, but I don't want to be there. 😁

Support prostitutes by means other than being a John. Do a Holden Caulfield if you like and pay for their time to just hang out, idk. The John is instinsically in a position of power by using money to be entitled to sex, and is part of the social violence of coercing desperate people into dangerous and frequently traumatizing* labor.

*look up ptsd rates

Also don't forget how many of these women are already struggling with mental health issues.

In the USA, if you are on disability, you are effectively barred from saving money.

I know of plenty of disabled women who turn to sex work to be able to pay the bills since their meager disability check is not enough to effectively live off. It is all under the table so they essentially just don't report the earnings.

So many of these women really don't need the added awfulness of being a sex worker in their lives, but do it out of necessity of a broken system.

Most of what I know is informed by stereotypes from various facets of American pop culture and not reality so my opinion is not valuable

I'd say share it anyway, could still be a really insightful or useful perspective

No, they're a hexbear user.

She's a hexbear user. We have pronoun tags for a reason. She doesn't state they/them as her pronouns so please edit your post to not misgender her.

"They" is a more general word and does not specify gender. Personally I use that word when I want it to be clear I am not implying that gender is relevant to my statement. It isn't inaccurate and people shouldn't always have to include references to gender in everything they say.

Every. Single. Fucking. Time. I point out misgendering and some cissie has the fucking nerve to argue with me why blatantly degendering women, a common smear tactic among British terfs btw, isn't a bad thing akshually. "oH i'M oNlY dOiG tHiS wHeN gEnDeR iSn'T rElEvAnT", the fuck are you talking about, respecting trans people's gender is ALWAYS relevant, you do not get to decide on this. This is our decision alone, to deny trans people the autonomy over their gendered self expresion and gender recognition is a textbook case of transphobia.

To make this perfectly clear: There is ONE, just ONE, correct response when somebody calls you out for misgendering somebody. It's apologizing and correcting your mistake. That's a tiny thing to do and takes a fraction of the time it takes to argue with me, and it will cause you one millionth of the distress you're up for when you act transphobic in my presence. If she would be fine with being they / themed, she would have given they / them as a second set of pronouns. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'm sharing my opinions about language, not being transphobic. What I said is not specific to trans women, I had no reason to think the woman replied to was transgender. If you think my disagreeing with you means I must secretly hate you because you're trans, you're wrong, but I hope the world treats you with more compassion and respect in the future.

“oH i’M oNlY dOiG tHiS wHeN gEnDeR iSn’T rElEvAnT”

That's a distortion of what I said. My claim is not that the non-relevance of gender morally justifies using non-gendered language, I'm not trying to be defensive. It's that a statement using gendered language and a statement not using gendered language is a different expression, the meaning is affected. Think about when singular 'they' was less well accepted, and it was more common in writing to use 'he' as a catch-all term. Yes, readers understood that it was possible the person being referred to was a woman despite the use of the word 'he', but that word still conveyed assumptions about the world. What if that isn't your actual intent? Then you don't use gendered words. That is a legitimate choice.

I hope the world treats you with more compassion and respect in the future.

Gee, thanks for your pity, but i don't need that. Most of my friends are cis and i know what it's like when cis people treat me with compassion and respect, as most people are actually capable of that. It's not that hard. They listen when i voice my grievances and understand that i have a different, yet valid perspective on such things than them, and that they can learn something from that to be more inclusive in the future. Probably because they understand that calling out transphobia doesn't mean calling somebody a transphobe. I would've used different language than that if my impression would have been malice instead of ignorance.

This is our decision alone

nobody is saying you can't identify or specify whatever pronouns you want. But it laughable to say it's your decision if other people use them in the name of "tolerance," of all things

Your insistence on ordering trans people around and telling us if we´re allowed to find open misgenderings to be offensive would be laughable if it wouldn't be so disgusting. Pronouns are not a polite request to pretty please tone down your transphobia out of the kindness of your heart, respecting our pronouns is the absolute bare minimum of respect you can show towards us.

...nobody is ordering you around? You are the only one I see making demands, actually. You are welcome to be offended if you like, in fact I give you my permission

You write a wall of text an get all worked up just because someone used "they" just to be neutral. No one is going to check your profiles one by one just to know your pronouns. This is the real world, no whatever crazy wuerdo echo chamber is hexabear.

Maybe your suicide rates wouldn't be so high if you didn't get offended for basically nothing. Is not that you get discrimination against you, is that you can handle society as everyone else can.

IMO the more that money is involved in anything, the less actually voluntary it is, because we need money to live and plenty of people don't have a lot of options for making money. With sex it's really important for everything to be actually consensual, but paying for it makes that ambiguous, they can't really know, so I see it as creepy and unethical.

Right, if you pay to have sex with a person that's utterly destitute, completely desperate, and has no other options, is that REALLY consensual?

There are plenty of examples of sex workers that are NOT in that situation, but there are just as many (I would guess more) examples of people that ARE in that situation.

I'd be curious to see whether sex workers increase/decrease in a region that implements a universal basic income.

I've known people who are sex workers and they're some of the most talented and intelligent people I've ever met. Replace sex-worker with marketing and that's who they are. There's nothing involuntary about what they do. Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don't want to do it if I could just survive without it.

Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.

Yeah, pretty much, it's one of the worst things about our society and needs fixing in general. It's just potentially extra bad when sex is involved because of its emotional, cultural, etc. significance. I don't mean to suggest all sex workers are desperate victims, I'm sure some of them are well off, have options, and are doing it because they want to, but they all have a business incentive to try to appear that way, so someone looking to hire them can't really be confident what they are doing isn't ultimately exploitation.

I couldn't really pin down exactly what my problem with sex work was until reading this. I try not to judge, but I've always found it problematic and I do find myself feeling like it shouldn't have to be a thing. Anecdotally, every person I've interacted with who brought the topic up always joked about wanting to do it just for the money.

The fact that it's paid for as a service makes it inherently open to exploitation, and thus unethical.

Safe. Sane. Consensual. Pretty simple. If money changes hands, whatever. Don't be a dick and no means no. In fact, until there is a yes, you cannot assume there is consent. I digress...

My idea of what the average sex worker client is like isn't positive, but I wouldn't hold it against someone I already know to be upstanding if I found out they had used one's services.

I hold no prejudices. In general, I try not to judge anyone until I've got to know them, what their values are, etc.

I hired an escort once. It was awkward. First, I was paranoid about it being a sting or something. Then, I was worried about getting my wallet stolen. When "it" was over, I started getting up to leave, then the women was like "your time's not up yet," then laid beside me and started a conversation about q-anon type stuff. Lady had some mental issues, which made me feel kinda bad about the whole thing (and a little bit scared at the time, lol).

Anyways, I would never bring this up on a date or even to a partner (or friend). It is completely irrelevant to a relationship. If asked directly if I've ever hired a sex worker, I would lie. There's a lot of stigma around sex workers and their clients, even with people who are generally more "accepting." Someone could be a good potential partner, friend, or whatever, but have one weird hang-up about not dating someone who was a "john," and I wouldn't want to exclude them from being a potential partner/friend just because of that.

I hired an escort once when drunk at like 2am. I couldn't get hard so we just talked for 30 minutes or so and I left.

I do tell people, including dates, if they ask or it comes up. Mostly because I find it an amusing story and people get amused. My dates haven't reacted negatively so far. I'm sure some will but typically I try to filter them before we get to that point.

I don't like judgy people or super-prudes.

Because of the poor treatment of the workers due to it being illegal, I'd say the majority are not great to terrible people.

If they go to legal, well managed brothels, they're probably ok people.

But if it's illegal there wouldn't be legal brothels around?

And I haven't followed through but I've looked into prostitution in my area through various means. There do seem to be fairly moral options in my opinion. People who work independent and interact directly with the customer and they keep all the money. They have their own space to meet and they have the option of refusal at any time.

I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally, or that what you're saying is harmful, but I do worry. It feels like you're demonizing an entire industry and adding to the idea that it's immoral unless done through brothels. Sex work is work, and while often people end up there out of necessity, that's not much different than any other job people work these days. I would say that people who knowingly pay for sex work where the worker doesn't have their full autonomy is, at best, selfish and shortsighted.

Or are you saying that because it's a crime, by paying for it they're contributing to the sex worker also doing something illegal and that's bad?

It's not illegal everywhere. I think their point is that legal and licensed brothels are less likely to be exploitative and involved in human trafficking.

Sure, not all sex work where it is illegal is exploitative, but I'm not sure most clients would shop around for the ethical choice like you have.

I absolutely believe sex work is work and I support it. I live in the USA where it is illegal. This leads to vilifying sex workers. A lot of them are victims. This makes any dealings with sex workers suspect. The typical "law abiding citizen" wouldnt go.

I've been to Germany and it's treated like a business transaction. (Not cold, just not shady or unusual). I feel like anyone that went there would be just a normal guy.

Its a perfectly reasonable option for those that for whatever reason are unable to meet their needs by more conventional/ socially acceptable means. I do not make use of sex worker services currently but if the need arose in the future I would not rule it out, and would not look down on anyone else for doing so (as long as trafficing is not involved)

One situation where I think it's perfectly rational to use sexual services is for mentally handicapped people who have no realistic options for actual relationships. I live in Denmark where prostitution is legal on some conditions. The healthcare staff sometimes have to order prostitutes for their clients to cope with their urges and thereby avoiding violent situations from someone getting too frustrated. The client pays themselves and it's both men and women using the option. The sex workers in these jobs are usually not found in back alleys or dodgy websites but through personal networks. It's still very taboo.

I wonder how these clients are treated in countries where it is outright illegal. Probably not at all, or by illegal methods.

The main problem seems to be trafficking, not the sex services. Everyone does something for money that they really don't want to do, like going to the office 40 hours every week.

If it was possible and required to verify the consensuality, it would probably remove a lot of the illegal services, and more legal services could thrive. There'll always be ways to work around it, so it's a difficult thing to address.

I can’t understand how people can compare these jobs. Does working in an office really feels the same for you than having sex with strangers?

They're comparable only in being something that I'd rather not do, but apparently possible for the right amount.

They're different in the going rate.

Personally, there are many other jobs that I I'd be less willing to do.

Do you think it would be okay for a state to, for example, cut off social benefits for a person who can’t find any other job but refuses to do sex work?

No, that would be wrong, but there is always some form of work out there that isnt sex work - it may not be pleasant or well paid though

Do you really think sex work is pleasant?

Most sex workers are from poor countries, many are single mothers who have to send money back home. Often times there is a pimp (or "boyfriend") in the back who expects some kind of debt payments.

How do you explain that about 95 % of sex workers are disenfranchised women from poor countries when it's supposedly a pleasant job that makes a lot of money?

That's not at all what he said. He just said these hypothetical other jobs may not be pleasant or well paid. He never said - or implied - that sex work IS pleasant or well paid.

Calm down, sparky.

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Creepy

I support sex workers but im sorry I will never step foot in a strip club. I guess in some places people go to strip clubs mostly to club and to party, but not near me, and I’ve never met anyone who frequents the strip clubs around me who wasn’t really sus.

Gross. How can you even enjoy sex when you essentially bought someone's consent?

I understand the sentiment, but "buying consent" is a difficult line of thinking when you follow it all the way through.
::: spoiler CW: SA There's sex workers who are sexually assaulted by clients, some brothels have panic buttons in their rooms for this reason. So if you follow the "prostitution is legalized r*pe" line of thinking, what's that then? Wasn't the sex worker in question already violated when they entered the contract with the client? Is that a case of double sexual assault? ::: I don't think that idea holds much water in all cases. It often does, but you cannot apply it universally to all sex work. That's because you can't just "buy consent", a sex worker still has very specific conditons for giving you conditional consent that only extends to a select number of specified acts, to certain time frames, certain areas of their body and so on, and they can revoke that consent when things turn south because the john starts to behave badly. And ultimately, all consensual sexual acts are in some ways conditional, even if it's the unspoken agreements in vanilla heteronormative relationships. It takes a massive level of trust and the knowledge that your partner will always intuitively accept your boundaries to allow them to do what they want with you and actually mean it. And when i look at it that way, i do not think that you can just override somebody's ability to consent by giving them money. There is already some form of consent to these acts involved when somebody agrees to pick up that line of work. It's difficult to say where that ends, moreso than in sexual realtions outside of sex work, i'd fully agree to that, and that's highly problematic, but it's not as clearcut as "all sex work is a form of SA because you bought consent the sex worker normally wouldn't have given to you".

(rest of the post is just general musings not directed at you, comrade, i'm only putting them here because i think this works better in one post).

That said, i'm very much not a fan of people buying sex work, and yes, that includes porn. Sorry guys, i know that most of you can't nut on your own without this stuff, for reasons i've always failed to understand, but it's how it is. The reason for my attitude isn't that i disagree with sex work per se, my support actually always lies with the workers and puts their concerns first, which is why i DO NOT support failed approaches like the "Nordic Model", which aims to only punish buying sex work, but effectively worsens risks for sex workers, increases deportations of sex workers without papers etc. My concern rather lies with the inherent coerciveness of all transactional relations under capitalism. When you listen to a typical socdem SWERF like German SPD member Leni Braimeyer (surprise, she's also a massive terf), who is pushing for the "Nordic Model" instead of the legalized prostitution we see in Germany today, there is not only a total, ultra-patronizing lack of recognizing the agency of sex workers, there's also a complete obliviousness to the economic conditions that determine how prostitution works in Germany, as yet another form of exploiting the economic imbalances in the EU and supplying German capital with a constant supply of workers who have to take increasingly awful deals out of pauiperization and desparation, as well as an increasingly precarious situation for the lower incomes among the German working class. It's these conditions that give rise to prostitution as an area of mass exploitation, and ending capitalist relations is the only way to amend the problem that a majority of sex workers are in a lopsided economic situation that is the actual threat to their agency and their ability to fully consent.

bought someone's consent

Interesting, I never thought about it like that...

I think the only excusable scenario would be independent service listings, where both parties establish limits and identify whether they're both comfortable prior to engaging in sexual activities.

Although not something I could see myself doing, I don't judge. People can be too busy for dating, out of practice, too awkward or just wanting to cross off something off their bucket list. At the very least it ain't my business.

where, which sex workers, and which services? i think men who spend more money on onlyfans than they do on groceries are dumb, i think strip clubs are fucken weird, i think sex tourists probably deserve death, and i think most johns are walking into a minefield of exploitation.

I don’t see a problem with it but there’s definitely a stigma associated with it. (At least in the US) I think folks who pay are seen as not being able to find it elsewhere which may make them appear as not desirable to other people which then may make your partner question if they’re making a bad choice. Unless you happen to be in an area that has well regulated sex workers, I imagine people might think that you’ve been exposed to STDs which may give you a perception of being “unclean”.

I don’t think you should have to lie when finding a partner… but I do think telling them this (at the beginning) may be problematic for you for a lot of people.

I’d love to see sex work well regulated, protected, and normalized in the US but I don’t think we’re there.

Pierre Elliot Trudeau, a former prime minister of Canada, has a great quote that I like to pull out: "No place for the state in the bedrooms of of the nation."

I think sex work should be legal and regulated to avoid trafficking and other health issues. General indecency shouldn't be allowed, like in playgrounds, parks, or where minors may otherwise be present. Private clubs, events, etc. should be fine. Governments should otherwise be uninvolved in our sex lives. It's none of their business.

However to answer your question directly, while I think it should be legal I also think it's sad when men use a sex workers services. I try not to, but I can't help but judge them. There's only a handful of reasons where I think its a persons only option. If someone feels like they've run out of options, it's just sad to me. What's gone wrong? Where's your confidence? Have you given up?

And for those legitimate reasons, like someone who's physically handicapped - that's heartbreaking for whole other reasons.

It just makes me sad.

The problem is exploitation which can and does happen in every industry. Sex work is no exception to that rule. Nobody is saying amazon needs to be abolished because of how they treat their workers. But some people see one industry or another as being inherently exploitative.

Nobody is saying amazon needs to be abolished because of how they treat their workers

i am saying that

Okay, nobody is saying that the type of work that Amazon does needs to be abolished.

At least, I hope not. If you seriously think that mail order should be illegal, we're gonna have words.

Plenty of people are calling for Amazon to be stopped, whether it's by being broken up in a trust-busting operation, fined to the point of bankruptcy for various things including illegal exploitation of its employees, or as an extreme example, starving former Amazon employees simply eating Jeff Bezos. Whether or not someone agrees, and whether they think it applies to brothels, multinational mega-corporations, or any other category of business, it's not a particularly controversial take that some kinds of business are inherently too exploitative of their employees, and should therefore be unable to legally exist.

See, I thought you were heading a different direction, and Amazon most certainly should get into sex work.

Worked night shift at a hotel next to a night club that doubled as a brothel, could talk to the girls who were always taken to our hotel, heard how the dudes talked about the girls they had sex with, i say kill everyone who pays for sex.

And this was supposed to be a "good" place btw.

seriously, i feel like so much of the discourse surrounding the sex industry is now dictated by a small minority of relatively well off sex workers who, probably unwittingly, produce a distorted image of what it's like to sell sex for a living. and through social media, these voices gets amplified both by libs, whose understanding of anything begins and ends with 'listen to x-voices,' and redditor-type men who have a vested interest in expanding prostitution and sanitizing its image, not because they care about sex workers, but because deep down they want to buy sex without having to feel bad about it

Logically, if he treats the sex worker right, with no demanding, no (non negotiated/sane) violence, and his actions don’t extend into monogamous relationships, and his views on future sexual partners are neither transactional nor cruel, it should be fine.

Emotionally would likely be a different story for the partner, or at least for me. Partly due to the stigma attached to sex work, and partly due to feelings of inadequacy or worry about needing to perform unwanted acts, and partly due to a suspicion that that really would affect his views, because people’s thoughts and feelings are messy, sprawling things that don’t fit into the mental cabinets we stuff them into. But if the partner couldn’t get over that, then they’re not for him.

And yes, this applies to women who pay for sex workers, too. Or at least it damn well should.

No judgement. BUT. I have slightly less of an opinion of those who do it when visiting a foreign country. Like a number of other things (such as gambling) I don't quite like the idea of a city having their citizens relying on sex tourism for sustainability, which by itself is whatever. But mixing that with the concept of fetishizing other races makes it icky. I can't imagine a man with "class" doing it.

This is something I struggle with too. On the one hand, I don’t want to say all instances are bad but there exists, definitely in Asian countries, sex work that caters specifically to ethnically based fetishes. On the one hand, fine, whatever gets your jimmy’s off as long as it’s consensual but I also think that these are often going to result in more exploitative environments when they occur in lower income areas.

You are ignoring the very important element of poverty. The prostitutes in these countries (SE Asia, historically Eastern Europe) are typically desperately poor and these tourists are burning money on leveraging the wealth they have from the imperial core to basically use these people as slaves, typically with few words that even could be spoken between then and no recourse for the prostitute if the john gets violent (what is she going to do, tell the cops that she was assaulted by the westerner she was prostituting for? Whose side would they take?)

I'm the opposite. If someone does it at home, they probably do so regularly while a vacation is once every now and then. I've known a couple of normal people that did it on vacay, it's just another facet of the party for them, letting down their hair etc. The ones I know that do it at home tho...yikes. But it's all kind of gross regardless.

Where do they go "on vacay," pray tell?

It's not always sex tourism. Of the people I was referring to, it was during a week-long fishing trip, the prostitution wasn't the reason for the trip and only occupied a small part of it.

I think it's gross regardless and I'd rather none of it was a reality, so you'll have to find someone else to argue with.

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It grosses me out, but as long as they're not shitty to the sex worker and the sex worker isn't being abused by a pimp, and everyone consents, it's none of my damned business.

I know a guy who does, and while it doesn't really matter I'm my opinion, he's kind of a weirdo sleezebag already so it's kind of expected. I suspect there's a correlation that makes it a little hard to separate the service from the kind of guy who would seek out the service.

Sex work is legal where I live. Nevertheless there is a lot of crime related to the sex work sector, human traficking, sexual abuse of minors, gangs etc. However I think it would be much worse if it was not regulated in anyway. My personal opinion - I would rather live in a world without it. Personally I would never go to a hooker. Most important thing though is that sex workers can decide for themselves and are not forced to do sex work (may it physical force, drug addiction or just no other way financially)

buying sex is disgusting, it has always been disgusting, and will always be disgusting—no matter what progressive 'spin' people try to put on it

I mean, it just depends on why. I don't look down on it as a whole, but if you're in a relationship and doing it on the side, I think you're a scumbag. That would go for women, too though.

I personally wouldn't date a man who's into that, I'd be too worried they'd indulge while we're together, and that's a hard no for me.

I've got to get around to learning how to do this... it's so much easier just to wank and move along with your day.

Disposable income and need for intimacy lol. Some things are not just about the sexual pleasure but fulfilling specific fetishes

I believe a lot do not care whether the sex worker really does the job as a free decision. I think even more have no respect for sex workers. A few do not see sex workers as people, but rather as usable bodies. A few go to sex workers because they are misogynists. I think a few use it to be unfaithful towards their partners without their partners having the same opportunities.

My opinion is based on an older gentleman commiserating on how difficult it was for young impoverished students to pay for everything nowadays. I was in debt, and had at just that moment come out at the LGB soc. That person was my bank manager.

Subs that pay doms don't bother me at all.

Why not. As long as no one suffers, it's fine by me. It's a transaction like any other. Just be a decent human being (which applies in every context) and I won't think any less of you.

It's mutually consensual and beneficial, and they don't walk away with half your shit when things go south.

Guy who goes a few times a year is regular. Guy who goes multiple times a week sleeze.

I think it should be considered rape.

Men who pay for sex are the driving force behind human trafficking.

I'm all for freedom, and I will acknowledge that there are probably women in the "sex trade" who were not trafficked or coerced into it, but that number pales in comparison to the number of girls who have been stolen and forced into a horrific life, having lost all control of their future. Freedom is among the most important qualities of human life, and the horror of human trafficking and the way it completely removes all freedom from the lives of its victims trumps the freedom of choosing to sell sex.

Most places, prostitution is illegal, enforced by going after the prostitute and slapping the wrists of the men who use them. I find it immoral and reprehensible that women would be criminalized for this.

Rather, men who make use of sex workers should be ostracized from society and imprisoned as rapists. And the women should be treated with compassion and care, as victims of abuse.

How do you believe women (and men, and NBs) who willingly go into this line of work should be treated?

Economic coercion don't real. galaxy-brain

Economic coercion is a problem in sex work, but it is one that cannot ever be adressed by any policy only targeting conditions around sex work, but exclusively by policies that directly remove the coercive conditions under the rule of capital. No anti-sex work law will remove the fact that people see no choice but entering survival sex work, or migrating from the periphery into the center to work as prostitutes. The only way to prevent that is to end poverty and i know i do not have to explain to you what that entails, we're in agreement on that.

This comment is also not entirely directed at your reply, it's more about the general line of thinking that started this comment chain. I'm not under the impression that most sex workers are abducted victims of human trafficking, that's a line of thinking that is always brough tup by swerfs and never backed up with any evidence, i think that your remark towards economic coercion is much closer to the core problem at play here.

I'm not disagreeing with your take there. I have no policy ideas to offer myself.

My issue is with the agonizingly bad take of "buying breakfast at the cafe down the road is exactly as exploitative as soliciting (possibly) trafficked people for sex in the Phillipines." libertarian-alert

Keep in mind that buying breakfast is connected to exploitation as well.

Children as young as eight picked coffee beans on farms supplying Starbucks and Nespresso

That is true. It is nearly impossible to purchase anything under the current system without someone having been exploited unjustly along the way. That doesn't mean that all such purchases are equally exploiting or that they all must be seen and treated exactly the same way (which under false equivalency arguments, tends to mean "do nothing at all, status quo is fine").

We're all victims of economic coercion. Very few would willingly work service or clerical jobs if they didn't need to.

If that's your rubrik, then whatever your opinion of Johns is, it should consistently be applied to anyone who ever buys any product or uses any service.

We all work because we need to get paid to survive. Knowing that, how do you believe those who choose for that work to be sex work should be treated?

false equivalency intensifies

Some things that are bad are worse than other things that are bad.

If that's your rubrik

Fuck everything that came after that pretentious sentence starter. I'm not going to humor your dubiously-motivated sophistry.

EDIT:

then whatever your opinion of Johns is, it should consistently be applied to anyone who ever buys any product or uses any service

With that bewilderingly bad false equivalency, you sound like you may be trying to banish a guilty conscience, or if you lack even that, you may be trying to vindicate what you've already paid for regarding economically coerced company. kombucha-disgust

You’re being an asshole in response to a good faith discussion.

Believe that if you want, but "buying breakfast at the cafe down the road is exactly as exploitative as soliciting (possibly) trafficked people for sex in the Phillipines" is a horrible take and the pretentious Reddity format it was presented in did not seem good faith to me.

Guy who refuses to answer the first question asked continues to deflect because he knows there's no logical position he can take that isn't 'I don't like sex workers'.

Guy who refuses to answer the first question

Your "question" was garbage to begin with because you're seriously arguing that all work is only equally harmful and exploitative.

no logical position

I don't see why you need to stan so hard for unregulated sexpat adventures when you're doing a fine job masturbating right there.

You deflected first by invoking economic coercion. Unless it's your firm belief that there are zero people who would knowingly choose to fuck for money over taking a menial job.

Get better talking points than these sad little ad hominems, they aren't helping you.

You deflected first

That doesn't matter to me whatsoever. You sound like a creepy sexpat using false equivalencies to vindicate your little hobby.

they aren't helping you

Don't say stupid shit like "all work is equally as exploitative."

Never said they were equally exploitative, just that we all suffer from some level of economic coercion.

What you are doing is what's called strawmanning. It's where you reframe an argument you are unable to counter to a slightly different one that you are able to counter.

I'd say it's beneath you, but it honestly doesn't seem to be.

you spelt rubric with a k

also, you're a creep

Indeed I did. I'll own up to that mistake.

The rest is projection, I'm afraid. Your should probably spend some time in reflection, but you're not going to.

Get whatever jibe is left in you out of your system and be on your way.

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Never said they were equally exploitative, just that we all suffer from some level of economic coercion.

You very strongly implied otherwise:

whatever your opinion of Johns is, it should consistently be applied to anyone who ever buys any product or uses any service.

If we play devil's advocate, the strictest denotation of what you are saying allows for the interpretation that one should consider exploitation in all cases, but you are very clearly implying that there is a comparable magnitude. I don't "apply my opinion of" John Wayne Gacy to someone was convicted of a sexual assault charge, because both people are sex criminals (and should be condemned) but the cases are clearly not comparable beyond a statement as generic as that.

Likewise, I don't "apply my opinion of Johns" to someone who bought a bundle of bananas at a grocery store because both people "contributed in some manner to exploitation" but the scale is not remotely similar and also the latter person still needs to eat!

Never said they were equally exploitative

If that's your rubrik, then whatever your opinion of Johns is, it should consistently be applied to anyone who ever buys any product or uses any service.

You're a liar and a creep.

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I find the whole concept pretty disturbing and wouldn't befriend them myself.

I think it fucks up the marriage (divorce) racket for women due to the fact it's simply cheaper and a lot less hassle.

That's why it gets screeched about.

The bottom line is that it's no one's business what 2 consenting adults do.

How is it different than pouring $100 worth of liquor down some woman's throat at the bar, banging once and never seeing again?

Flame away, dgaf.

I think it fucks up the marriage (divorce) racket for women due to the fact it’s simply cheaper and a lot less hassle.

If people are getting married just to have sex, they probably shouldn't be getting married in the first place. And I can't imagine that the marriage for that woman would be great.

Gonna be honest though, your phrasing kind of gives off "sees women as pieces of meat to fuck" energy. And while we're here, plying women with alcohol doesn't sound super consensual to me. If she doesn't want to fuck you sober, don't do it.

The same thing I think about anyone who pays for something they can find for free if they looked hard enough.

In the Netherlands some people with handicaps like muscular dystrophy can apply for reimbursement for "sex care".
In those cases I think it might be a good thing.

Australia also. My friend works for approvals for our national disability scheme. He regularly approves this.

listen, i can get a burger for free out of dumpster, but I'd rather pay for one from the menu.