To those of you who propose 100% renewables + storage. In cases with no access to hydro power. How much energy storage do you need? How does it scale with production/consumption? What about a system with 100TWh yearly production/consumption?
Interesting product. Reading about it quickly it seems to have a problem with self discharge. But perhaps they have ironed out that problem. There is no shortage of promising battery news, but there seems to be a problem getting them to mass production. Hoping this one is different.
EVs with VTG. Problem solved. More importantly, energy production (solar plus wind) and storage (batteries) are completely decentralized, which is a huge security improvement for the grid. It amazes me that a platform that is decentralized doesn't beat the drum for the same for energy production and storage.
How do you generate energy during the winter? Are we going to run HVDC to the Sahara and connect them globally?
Over time, Olkiluoto-3 is expected to reduce the need for electricity imports from Russia, Sweden and Norway and lead to lower prices. Olkiluoto-3 will run alongside two existing reactors, eventually becoming Europe's most powerful reactor.
Once regular energy production ramps up in July, the reactor will supply about 14% of Finland's energy at 1,650 megawatts
Is there any more in-depth analysis to show how many EVs would be needed to make this feasible, how this would work with time of day use of power from commutes vs generation from solar power, how long the grid could stay powered this way, impact on consumers range, etc? I think the concept seems simple at first but would it actually be resiliant relying on just EV batteries? A cloudy week could see everyone run out of power, for example.
Yeah at higher latitudes the energy consumption is highest when renewable production is lowest.
Geothermal would work, but it is very expensive unless you have a large property or a decent sized pond.
It would still require power from other sources, but would dramatically reduce demand.
Geothermal was trialed and deemed unprofitable. Nuclear power has been serving our baseload needs for 50 years.
Solar yes but not wind.
On coldest days in jan and feb the wind production here is nearly zero.
Doesn't energy made out biomass (like wood-fuels) release a lot of CO2 as it's still a carbon source?
Also, in the same article, nuclear energy seems to be pretty high up too (if not higher) and they're building a new reactor, showing that it's not one or the other, but a combination that's probably the best.
Present day carbon cycling is okay. It's when you take captured carbon from millions of years ago and release it without capturing it that has gotten us into trouble.
A single Tesla powerwall has 13.5kwh of usable energy. An average Tesla car has between 70-100kwh of usable energy. The average American home uses about 30kwh/day (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3). There are about 141 million houses in the US. There are 275 million personal and commercial vehicles in the US. So there would be plenty of capacity once you replace a significant chunk of those vehicles with EV.
Cloudy weeks don't occur over large areas - if you look at solar or wind production over an entire county or state, for example, it varies very little (that's also the advantage of using both sun and wind - when one is bad the other is typically good). So the solution to intermittency is mass adoption.
I live in a 1000 square foot two bedroom condo. When it gets below 20° f, which does a lot during the winter, I have to use the auxiliary heat on my heat pump unit.
That's 7.5 kW.
So just to stay warm during the night, when solar stops working, I would need 3-5 Power Walls?
Nice to meet you MrFagtron
An EV would be a much better investment than powerwalls but it’s hard to be specific on a case by case basis. Hope that helps MrFagtron.
Get a better heat pump that doesn't need aux heat? I know Mitsu "hyper heat" minisplits advertise high efficiency to -10F.
Powerwalls are overpriced for their capacity. Grid storage operators pay ~$150/kwh for batteries, then I'd guess about the same for charging/inverter electronics. I also see EV West sells 3.5kwh Samsung batteries to average consumers for $700 (I'm sure they're charging a large markup as well).
Are you going to buy me a new heat pump?
Also why doesn't anyone make a hyper efficient central system? I've only seen those hyper efficient units as mini splits.
Are you going to replace my 2016 Sonata I spent $13k on buying in 2018 with a $55k EV with car to grid for me?
What happens if it's dark and cold for multiple days? I just can't drive because my car emptied out running my minisplits?
Lol. Was just offering suggestions you may have not known about. Off-grid isn't practical for many people who aren't willing make sacrifices just for the sake of it. Some people like the challenge and lifestyle. Renewable power plants are more efficient than residential. I think used Leafs can be pretty cheap, and even new EVs, solar panels (grid-tied), and more efficient appliances can save you money in the long run. Not sure if it makes sense to sell EV charge back to the grid (I guess it does if the price is right).
I've heard of some people on certain electricity plans overheat or overcool their house when electricity is cheap to save money (acting kinda like storage for when electricity is more expensive).
In regards to V2G. Tesla is not even supporting bi-directional charging at this point and it is just now starting to become a bit more common in newer models. It would be interesting to see more detailed example about this. You would also need to include the usage of industry and commercial which as far as I know together account for more than residential usage. How about availability in terms of SOC and being plugged in or not. I think this is a bit more difficult to solve than you are alluding to but I'm happy to be proved wrong.
This is a far easier problem and solution than building a nuclear reactor. And it’s utilizing something (EVs) that we need anyway so improved utilization of resources.
To those of you who propose 100% renewables + storage. In cases with no access to hydro power. How much energy storage do you need? How does it scale with production/consumption? What about a system with 100TWh yearly production/consumption?
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a42532492/iron-air-battery-energy-storage/
Interesting product. Reading about it quickly it seems to have a problem with self discharge. But perhaps they have ironed out that problem. There is no shortage of promising battery news, but there seems to be a problem getting them to mass production. Hoping this one is different.
EVs with VTG. Problem solved. More importantly, energy production (solar plus wind) and storage (batteries) are completely decentralized, which is a huge security improvement for the grid. It amazes me that a platform that is decentralized doesn't beat the drum for the same for energy production and storage.
How do you generate energy during the winter? Are we going to run HVDC to the Sahara and connect them globally?
Finland has it figured out - see link below.
Yes: nuclear plant:
https://en.mercopress.com/2023/05/22/finland-connects-nuclear-plant-to-power-grid-eu-classifies-nuclear-as-sustainable-energy
Over time, Olkiluoto-3 is expected to reduce the need for electricity imports from Russia, Sweden and Norway and lead to lower prices. Olkiluoto-3 will run alongside two existing reactors, eventually becoming Europe's most powerful reactor.
Once regular energy production ramps up in July, the reactor will supply about 14% of Finland's energy at 1,650 megawatts
Is there any more in-depth analysis to show how many EVs would be needed to make this feasible, how this would work with time of day use of power from commutes vs generation from solar power, how long the grid could stay powered this way, impact on consumers range, etc? I think the concept seems simple at first but would it actually be resiliant relying on just EV batteries? A cloudy week could see everyone run out of power, for example.
Yeah at higher latitudes the energy consumption is highest when renewable production is lowest.
Geothermal would work, but it is very expensive unless you have a large property or a decent sized pond.
It would still require power from other sources, but would dramatically reduce demand.
Geothermal was trialed and deemed unprofitable. Nuclear power has been serving our baseload needs for 50 years.
Solar yes but not wind.
On coldest days in jan and feb the wind production here is nearly zero.
I'm glad your fellow countrymen have already got this figured out. Finland is a world leader in bioenergy. https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/finland-energy#:~:text=Renewable%20Energy,system%20based%20on%20fossil%20fuels.
Doesn't energy made out biomass (like wood-fuels) release a lot of CO2 as it's still a carbon source?
Also, in the same article, nuclear energy seems to be pretty high up too (if not higher) and they're building a new reactor, showing that it's not one or the other, but a combination that's probably the best.
Present day carbon cycling is okay. It's when you take captured carbon from millions of years ago and release it without capturing it that has gotten us into trouble.
A single Tesla powerwall has 13.5kwh of usable energy. An average Tesla car has between 70-100kwh of usable energy. The average American home uses about 30kwh/day (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3). There are about 141 million houses in the US. There are 275 million personal and commercial vehicles in the US. So there would be plenty of capacity once you replace a significant chunk of those vehicles with EV.
Cloudy weeks don't occur over large areas - if you look at solar or wind production over an entire county or state, for example, it varies very little (that's also the advantage of using both sun and wind - when one is bad the other is typically good). So the solution to intermittency is mass adoption.
I live in a 1000 square foot two bedroom condo. When it gets below 20° f, which does a lot during the winter, I have to use the auxiliary heat on my heat pump unit.
That's 7.5 kW.
So just to stay warm during the night, when solar stops working, I would need 3-5 Power Walls?
Nice to meet you MrFagtron An EV would be a much better investment than powerwalls but it’s hard to be specific on a case by case basis. Hope that helps MrFagtron.
Get a better heat pump that doesn't need aux heat? I know Mitsu "hyper heat" minisplits advertise high efficiency to -10F.
Powerwalls are overpriced for their capacity. Grid storage operators pay ~$150/kwh for batteries, then I'd guess about the same for charging/inverter electronics. I also see EV West sells 3.5kwh Samsung batteries to average consumers for $700 (I'm sure they're charging a large markup as well).
Are you going to buy me a new heat pump?
Also why doesn't anyone make a hyper efficient central system? I've only seen those hyper efficient units as mini splits.
Are you going to replace my 2016 Sonata I spent $13k on buying in 2018 with a $55k EV with car to grid for me?
What happens if it's dark and cold for multiple days? I just can't drive because my car emptied out running my minisplits?
Lol. Was just offering suggestions you may have not known about. Off-grid isn't practical for many people who aren't willing make sacrifices just for the sake of it. Some people like the challenge and lifestyle. Renewable power plants are more efficient than residential. I think used Leafs can be pretty cheap, and even new EVs, solar panels (grid-tied), and more efficient appliances can save you money in the long run. Not sure if it makes sense to sell EV charge back to the grid (I guess it does if the price is right).
I've heard of some people on certain electricity plans overheat or overcool their house when electricity is cheap to save money (acting kinda like storage for when electricity is more expensive).
In regards to V2G. Tesla is not even supporting bi-directional charging at this point and it is just now starting to become a bit more common in newer models. It would be interesting to see more detailed example about this. You would also need to include the usage of industry and commercial which as far as I know together account for more than residential usage. How about availability in terms of SOC and being plugged in or not. I think this is a bit more difficult to solve than you are alluding to but I'm happy to be proved wrong.
This is a far easier problem and solution than building a nuclear reactor. And it’s utilizing something (EVs) that we need anyway so improved utilization of resources.