‘Nobody’s hands are clean’: Obama urges reflection amid Israel-Hamas conflict
politico.com
Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”
“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.
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Israel is asshole.
Hamas is asshole.
I guess it isn't so complex after all.
I actually would call people fighting against genocide heroes
Hamas is not the party that has been perpetrating white supremacist settler-colonialism since 1949.
Your "bothside-ism" is nothing but thinly-veiled apologetics for Israel.
Israel is not the party that stormed a festival and ruthlessly executed civilians and took civilians as hostages. It's easy to play this game. The fact is Hamas is the bigger asshole at the moment, much bigger. They launched an attack with no clear objectives other than killing Israelis. If they had lined up on the border of Gaza and said they were declaring independence, creating a sovereign state to end years of ongoing Israeli brutality, and requested international support to build the governance and infrastructure to support it this would be a totally different discussion.
Oh, look... a liberal blaming the colonized for their own colonization.
It just doesn't take a lot for you to betray the rabid right-wing, pro-colonialist ideology hiding under your liberal facade, does it?
Here's the part you're not getting: Hamas didn't launch the attack to end their colonization. Show me some clear, obtainable objectives from Hamas in this attack that will benefit Gaza and the Palestinians instead of just taunting liberals and I'll be all ears.
Here’s the part you’re not getting - the colonized does not require your approval or permission to resist colonization.
The fact that you obviously believe they do shows how thoroughly you are invested in viewing the world through the lens of white supremacist colonialism... so I guess the answer to my original question is in the affrimative - you are the exact kind of person that would have provided "complexity" apologetics no matter which instance of colonialist slaughter we'd be living through.
Peak liberalism - as the kids these days would say.
Again, Hamas is not doing anything to address or end the colonization. Nothing. I'll get on your side for a moment and for the sake of discussion I'll agree Israel has done very bad things to Palestinians over decades. Pile on whatever you want on top of this to make Israel out to be worse than Satan or whatever. Then answer the question, what positive outcome will there be to the Hamas attack? You've failed to identify anything. Your entire line of argument here is an irrelevant "because colonization" and a bunch of labeling and ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagrees with you.
Hamas's attack literally wiped colonizing acceptment off the table. They have tried asking nicely and israel just continued colonizing Palestine.
Again - the colonized does not require your approval or permission to resist colonization.
Positive for whom? You? A proven supporter of white supremacist settler-colonialism?
Or the Palestinians, perhaps, whom you'd prefer to blink out of existence quietly so that you can continue to exist inside your bubble of 1st world privilege without having to face the fact that said privilege is built on exactly that which we are witnessing in Gaza?
I said previously "Show me some clear, obtainable objectives from Hamas in this attack that will benefit Gaza and the Palestinians". How many times need I ask?
Your lack of an answer is the answer. Thank you.
Again - the colonized does not require your approval or permission to resist colonization.
Your apologetics for a white supremacist settler-colonialist state doesn't imply a requirement for "answers" on my part - considering that it is you that are peddling apologetics for a white supremacist settler-colonialist state.
Neither is Israel. Please educate yourself on this multi-millennia long conflict before trying to claim it's not a complicated situation.
Shit, here's a short video that might help explain why this isn't anywhere close to as cut and dry as you want it to be: https://youtu.be/m19F4IHTVGc?si=F3X8LGUrQGMHdXVv
this is bullshit, zionism is a far right fascist ideology, it has nothing to do with history besides senseless justification for its own shitty, worthless existence
Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonialist state. End of story.
Seventy years doesn't qualify as "multi-millenia," okay?
You can keep saying that but they aren't white, and they are the original settlers of the area... Soooo not end of story, not even part of the story.
Yeah but 3000 years is so....
Maybe watch the video? Or read up on history? Like maybe look at the buildings Jewish people built there thousands of years ago that are still standing? And there's the fact that they've been there the whole time? Sure there was a migration of Jewish people coming back after WW2, but the population didn't go from 0. They were always there.
In fact the Jewish population was the reason the white colonizers (the British ) left Israel in the late 40's.
Say it louder. Bellow it from the rooftops so that every Jewish person in occupied Palestine can hear you - they aren’t “white” enough for you… just like your European ancestors insisted when they massacred Jewish people and drove them from their homes due to their rabid antisemitism. Show them that they are nothing but kapos to you, right-winger - show them that you will only support them as long as they are repressing brown people for you in the middle-east.
Show them what true antisemitism looks like in the way that only you and your ilk can.
Pulling 2930 years out of your arrse is not the magic trick you assume it to be.
Did you only figure out now that there have always been Jewish Palestinians in Palestine? Wait till you find out that the earth isn't flat...
I'm fucking Jewish you raging asshole. My ancestors are the ones that were massacred you absolute fucking disgrace of a human.
It's not out my ass, it's out of history.
Okay so you understand that that proves you're wrong right?
But just fuck you. Stop trying to white wash me and my family you complete tool.
Good... now I can ask you directly - what does it feel like to play kapo for the very people that invented antisemitism?
There's something I need you to explain for me... have you or have you not noticed that all of Israel's enablers - all the countries that have proven so fond of the idea of Israel including England, where antisemitic Christians invented Zionism - are literally countries with deep histories of white supremacism, colonialism and... drumroll, please... antisemitism?
Which part of...
...didn't you understand the first time around?
Still not getting this, are you? Those white supremacists that are cheering Israel on with you? They will only see you as "white enough" as long as it suits them. When they inevitably abandon Israel because their favorite little white supremacist colonialist project has become a costly dead-end, you will witness them turn straight back into the overt antisemites they were before WW2 made overt antisemitism unfashionable.
That's who you share an ideological bed with.
Just admit you're anti semitic and you don't want to have to go through that self realization.
You've actively refused to admit it's a complicated multi millennia situation, but then admitted that Israelites were there all along so the original colonizers were not them.
Also
I don't fuck with their racist ass shit either. I'm not white, it doesn't matter if you or they are trying to white wash me and my fucking family. You racist piece of shit.
Not answering the question, huh? The people who created Israel and runs it to this very day learned their white supremacist colonialism from the best in the game - France, Germany, Britain and, of course, the US - I guess it's just a pure coincidence that these countries, historical and traditional hotbeds of fundamentalist white supremacism and antisemitism, are also Israel's most generous backers, eh?
You don't have to answer - it's a question more and more people will be asking - and answering - no matter what you or your glorified Crusader state does.
Don't project your (pretty typical) right-wing self-hatred onto me... I'm not the one apologizing for oppressors and mass-murderers. You are.
There's nothing complicated about white supremacist settler-colonialism - not for those who aren't willing collaborators, anyway.
Yes, the Palestinians have been there for a very long time. You know... in Palestine.
Which part of...
...didn't you get the first time around?
You literally share the same ideological bed as the kind of people who perpetrated the Holocaust (who, incidentally, also considered forcefully displacing European Jewish people to Palestine - perfectly in-line with the beliefs of the antisemitic originators of the ideology of Zionism).
So yes... you are fully onboard with their "racist ass shit" white supremacism - their "racist ass shit" white supremacism is literally the only reason modern-day Israel can exist in the way that it does today. You didn't think that Israel funds it's vast murder-toy collection by selling the water it steals from Palestinians, did you?
I've already answered your "question" and it's based on a racist false premise you're continuing to perpetuate because you can't reconcile your own racist beliefs being racist. So you pin up this big strawman that I never said so your gymnastics can suit yourself.
Also
You seem to bitch a lot about "white supremacist colonizers", but calling it Palestine is literally the white supremacist colonizer name for it. That's what the Roman empire decided to rename it after they took it over.
No, you haven't. Here... I'll repost it to shake up your memory.
Accusing everyone that's pointing out your white supremacist beliefs of "reverse racism" hasn't worked out that well for any of your other right-wing brethren... but maybe you'll be the exception, right?
White supremacist ideology didn't exist back when the Roman empire was a thing - I guess we can also tack "doesn't understand what white supremacism is" to your PragerU-level lack of historical understanding, eh?
I wouldn't know. Because I'm not.
That's actually a subset of Israel's supporters. And by the fucking way I've never voiced support of what the current government is doing, I stated it was a complicated situation. And you decided that meant I gargle Netanyahu's balls.
You're literally white washing an entire group of people and ignoring thousands of years of history just so you can claim actual racism as reverse racism. That's God tier racism, congrats.
I'm sick of you calling me right wing. You don't know me, and it couldn't be farther from the truth. I do know however, that your entire spiel has been rife with racism, so you're likely the right winger here larping as liberal and you're not arguing in good faith.
I'm not accusing everyone, I'm accusing you. For your racist overtones.
Bruh are you fucking kidding me? Us vs then supremacy has existed since the dawn of man. It existed back when the neanderthal were around, so it definitely existed back then
Roman empire was the first real go at White supremacy. Their whole thing was "you know, we're better than everyone else at things, let's take them over", moreover the reason the Romans renamed it was because they didn't like Jewish people. Tell me how that's different from your proud boy ass.
Arabs were against Israel and also against having Britain & France controlling colonial assets in their countries. The USSR saw them as valuable allies in dismantling colonial empires to make way for expanding Soviet influence. Western alignment with Israel didn't fully materialize except with the context of the Cold War. It really doesn't have a whole lot to do with ideological concerns beyond the surface level. It's realpolitik. The USSR was even pro-Zionist for a hot minute when they thought the kibbutzim were going to take off.
Also, this...
... is fucking stupid. Jews have been returning to Zion for as long as there has been a diaspora.
...and here you manage to prove just one thing - that the only thing "complicating" any of this is the batshit fairy tale pro-Israeli propaganda that has been regurgitated for you for decades now. Even Israeli historians demolishes your absurd alt-history.
Want a choice quote from Israeli historian Anita Shapira?
Are you talking about Palestine? You know... the place that has always had large Jewish communities all throughout the middle-ages right up to 1949?
Is that the place you are referring to?
And where exactly do you think the Christian Zionists got their ideas?
Could it be Maimonides?
The days of the Messiah, however, is the time when rulership will return to Israel and that they will go back to the land of Israel and that this king will be very great, and the seat of his rulership will be in Zion (Jerusalem). His fame will grow and his mention will be among all of the nations, [even] more than King Shlomo. And all of the peoples will make peace with him and all of the lands will serve him, due to his great righteousness and due to the wonders that will come about though him. And anyone that comes against him, God, may He be elevated, will deliver into his hand. And all of the [relevant] verses in Scripture testify to his success and our success with him. And nothing about existence will change from what it is now, except that rulership will return to Israel.
Maimonides advocated that wise men, those who understood the words of the sages, would naturally establish this "rulership" in Israel. Of course he was commenting on the Mishnah which dates back to the second or third century CE. The Christian Zionists' reason for wishing for the Jews to return to Israel is to bring about the end/messianic times. This prophecy first appeared in Judaism.
If you want to get into the specifics of practical & poltical Zionism of the late 19th century, sure it was inspired by European nationalism. But if that's all it takes for something to be white supremacy, then I guess all the various forms of Arab and African nationalism are white supremacy, too. The political, financial, and logistical methods employed by modern Zionists in the establishment of Israel were reflections of the time in which it took place. Had the Holocaust not occurred, the aliyot of the late 19th and early 20th century likely would have fizzled out without significantly effecting the balance of power in the region, like all the aliyot prior.
Yes, lol. Keep up. The Jewish population waxed & waned over the centuries due to waves of expulsion and emigration, and aliyot.
Anyway, modern Zionism doesn't need to be smeared as "white supremacy"; it stands on its own as a terrible idea, that in its full realization requires violence against and the displacement & expulsion of the Palestinian people.
No. There is a lot of "return" mythologies you can name that is present in a lot of diaspora communities, but that doesn't mean you see Rastafarians perpetrating settler-colonialism in Ethiopia or the Irish making the case for violently retaking Dublin from... the Irish. You could, if you wanted, make a case for Liberia - but once again, Liberia is a result of a white supremacist urge to get rid of a hated other by displacing said "other" "back where they came from..." which, now that we're talking about it, most certainly does have parallels with Christian Zionism's core antisemitism.
And who were Arab and African nationalists supposed to be white supremacist to? Whiteness defines itself by that which it is not... African nationalism is still, to this very day, beset by the racialized politics enforced onto it by white supremacist empires - Rwanda is merely one case of many - but the idea that sub-Saharan Africans have universally embraced the kind of comprehensive racialized caste system that European "race science" has normalized is ludicrous.
Maybe you need to tell the Israelis that.
oh you're such an idiotic bitch
Go watch the video. The Jewish population literally kicked them out. That's literal facts, so I think you're the idiotic bitch.
Y'all really don't want to educate yourselves on this and you just want to say it's a super simple situation that you've already figured out.
Or you're just super racist like the other guy.
So your stance is Hamas' isn't an asshole?
no, they're fucking awesome for doing something against fascist genocide
but no tell me from your little chair in the suburbs how actually your detached position is better somehow
Nope.
Either way, my 'both-sideism' is mostly the ability to be empathetic to the situation both sides are in currently.
If I were a Palestinian in Gaza, I would be pissed at essentially being born into an open air prison with the boots of another that hates me in my neck all my life. I would be willing to fight, however I could, to strike back at my jailers.
If I were an Israeli, I'd see Gaza as filled with dangerous people who want to exterminate me an my family. I would ideally want them gone, but knowing that's not possible, id want them kept as non threatening as possible in their cage.
Neither side is wrong; if I were Israel I wouldn't want any kind of solution that empowers a group whose stated goal is my death. And I can't blame the anger of the residents of Gaza for their treatment over the decades.
We have already established that you are "empathetic" to white supremacist settler-colonialism - which in itself proves that your "empathy" is no less facetious as everything else that emanates from right-wing ideology.
And if you were German in the 1940s, you'd see everybody to the east of Germany as dangerous "Jewish Bolshevists" that must be exterminated at every cost.
And according to the mentally diseased liberal "centrist" hive mind you are a proud member of, you wouldn't be wrong, would you?
No, Sonny Jim, you are wrong - and you know it, too. That's why you're tying yourself into white supremacist logic-pretzels to apologize for your support of white supremacist settler-colonialism.
That is it. End of story.
False equivalency. Eastern European Jews never stated their intention was to exterminate the German people and they never carried out acts of violence in furtherance of that goal.
This statement reads like you don't believe Israel has any kind of legitimate security concern in Hamas, which we both know is insane.
Really? Hold on while I get some popcorn - I'm going to need it while I watch you explain to me how Palestinians were planning the genocide of millions of Jewish people in Europe, Asia and the Americas. That little white supremacist logic-pretzel of yours is about to grow HUMONGOUS.
White supremacist settler-colonialist states has no legitimate concerns whatsoever.
So lets address this.
I'm guessing you are referring to the fact that Israel as a nation is less than a century old and has, as policy, granted citizenship to anyone of Jewish ancestry?
I do believe that the creation of Israel should have never happened. The creation of an ethnostate - especially an ethnostate tied so closely to a religion, was a mistake.
With that said, I don't think that has much bearing on the current situation. 80+ percent of Israeli citizens were born in Israel. They aren't new comers, for most this is their home and the only home they've ever known.
If your proposed solution is the forced dismantling of Israel and the forced relocation of it's people, then you are simply trading one genocide for another.
White supremacist settler-colonialism is not a mistake - it's policy. Do you think the hundreds of billions in murder-money the US gives Israel is merely the result of a typo?
And? Did you just assume that they were the first Jewish people to ever be born in Palestine? You did know that there has been Jewish and Christian Palestinians all this time, right?
It's not my proposed solution - it is merely the only solution. Israel is a western-backed white supremacist settler-colonialist project - it has no more "right" to exist than the Crusader kingdoms of the middle ages did.
You mean... like white people in South Africa are being "genocided," eh? What did you think? All people who has Israeli citizenship will simply drop dead as soon as the Israeli state packs up and leaves like the colonialist house of cards it truly is? Just like the Apartheid-regime in South Africa did?
Nationality is not culture, genius - you can't commit genocide against a nationality. Nationalities aren't people.
This kind of shit is why no one takes you seriously, bud.
Oh, the "enlightened centrist" hive mind doesn't take me seriously?
Go on... threaten me with a good time.