‘Nobody’s hands are clean’: Obama urges reflection amid Israel-Hamas conflict
politico.com
Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”
“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.
And he’s 100% correct.
Thank you so much.
This is way more complex than it's getting credit for.
It always has been.
Anyway, I miss having a better leader. He was just so presidential. Not perfect, but no one can be.
he was a piece of shit. an eloquent neolib piece of shit. easy to reminisce about the better times when the last 2 presidents have been trash.
Who were the top three presidents in your mind and why?
none none and none.
turn cnn off and look at voting records, actions, military occupation, campaign finance etc and you’ll see why.
Really?
Can’t you pick a more interesting talking point then that boring bullshit?
pick a more interesting talking point than the presidents of the largest genocidal project in the world
Yawn.
Hexbears is that way in case you’re lost, buds.
thanks, “SatansMaggotyCumFart”.
I know your user name from reddit. Small world and disgustingly memorable username well done
no i came here from hexbear to bully you cracker ass losers
Having fun bulling!
you seemed to have spelt that wrong
Even the dead children?
What does this even mean?
They're trying to do a "gotcha." What they mean is, "Are even the dead children responsible for the situation they were in?"
It's a fallacy; appeal to emotion. Obviously the dead children aren't reading this, or hearing the words that "all of us are complicit." Instead of thinking as a rational person would that the audience being addressed by those words are the people to who that phrase would apply, they did a rapid-fire, emotion-based response because they want to feel right and superior, instead of taking the mature, nuanced approach.
Orrrr, maybe they’re talking about how Palestinian children are blamed for throwing rocks at tanks.
@roofuskit
That's what I thought when I saw the headline but he's actually talking about state actors when you read the context:
Especially the dead children. They were obviously bad because they chose to get born into the wrong place. Jesus hates them and had them killed for a reason. They should have chosen to get borned into a nice white Christian family in America.
yes, even the giraffes.
This is bad news for Israels current course of action. When the guy who was popular (enough that the current guy could "best friend" his coat tails into office) starts saying this stuff loud enough for everyone to hear, it's intentional. This looks like more subtle public distancing and changing of narrative.
Israel and it's supporters should be sobered by this soft diplomacy. It's very much aimed at them and the timing should make it clear that they are being isolated.
Funny they never say this kinda shit or act upon it when they have any actual power. Like Eisenhower and his military industrial complex speech.
It's also pretty rich coming from guy who thought drone collateral was not a problem in Afghanistan.
He's lucky we wasn't president during the last time there was a huge Israeli-Palestinian blowout, otherwise he'd have a 1:1 comparison with Biden.
Voluntarily releasing reports on civilian casualties doesn't seem like they thought it wasn't a problem
The ones where every male above 18 was just classified as a terrorist?
then they were just bragging
"Sorry everyone, look how bad we are. We killed all these people, and we're going to kill more. Aren't we bad?"
That doesn't really show any concern.
What makes you say he didn't think accidental civilian deaths were a problem?
They didn’t stop him from doing the drone strikes.
He was the only president to drone strike American citizens.
Presidents/Prime Ministers become beacons of morality once out of office.
Or in Obamas case, Nobel peace prize winner > War Criminal > Beacon of morality
https://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/08/world/europe/france-sarkozy-netanyahu/index.html
His real thoughts speak volumes lol.
Spoiler: they don't. Elected presidents can't speak against whoever would successfully lobby to impeach them.
the babies on respirators in gaza hospitals are.
Hamas is hiding in their premature baby bodies
Wasn't that Hamas who did the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital bombing? Though it's debatable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/briefing/gaza-hospital-explosion.html
Even if it was a misfired Palestinian rocket, which still isn't proven btw, it doesn't outweigh the 30+ hospitals that Israel has bombed to this day, or for that matter the fucking refugee camp they bombed last week.
I mean it does though because of the claim of 500 dead bodies that magically appeared and then (not a joke) dissolved like salt into water once it was clear it was IJ at fault and not the IDF.
Israel has largely been pinpoint with its strikes and when you compare it's released maps of Gaza's tunnel networks from the last war with the BBC's map of its airstrikes it's very clear what they're doing.
I was confused by this initially too (I read the headline and imagined a tent city for people fleeing this current war, but then the photo was of a city block with like 5 story buildings) but it's only called a "refugee camp" because it was originally a site where refugees gathered after the 1948 war, in the modern day it's more or less an urban neighborhood of Gaza with a population (at one point) of 100,000 just like any other part of the city
I think hospital bombings on both sides must always be taken with a grain of salt... because if you are in a war and are highly unethical; where is the best place to operate a military base from, if you want to protect it from bombings?
Honestly, the whole truth of the situation is that the subjugation and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was a direct byproduct/prerequisite of the creation of the Israeli state. We will get nowhere if nobody addresses this fundamental aggravant at the heart of this conflict, that formed the basis for the militarized apartheid system that exists there today. These are just pithy quips about "nobody's perfect" coming from somebody with olympic swimming pools of blood on his hands.
The reality's that the only people with the real vision to create peace in this situation have long been sidelined from the political discussion. I'm really encouraged looking at stuff like https://www.odsi.co/en/ that actually understands the fundamental problems going on here. We'll get absolutely nowhere listening to the political establishment in the U.S. or Israel that spent most of the last century manufacturing this situation.
Yes but none of us were alive when it happened. Now there'sa nuclear armed ethnostate literally surrounded by (to them) existential enemies, and it just so happens they speak English gud and like the same brand of deity, and let wonder woman move to Hollywood.
Shit is fucked.
This is bullshit. Israel's response is completely disproportionate. 2000+ children are dead in Gaza.
I don't see where Obama said anything about things being proportionate, and I don't know what "proportionate" has to do with the fact that heinous acts have been taken by both sides.
There's no "both sides" to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.
How many times can you poke a bear before it decides it's done?
It's not an excuse. Israel's actions are absolutely disproportionate. I can argue either side, but that's exactly the point. Nobody's hands are clean. You don't have to condone Israel's actions to understand they were provoked.
There can never be peace without both sides admitting some fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. 9061 wrongs don't cancel out 1400 wrongs. That's not how any of this works.
What do you suggest Israel does? What do you suggest Palestinians in Gaza do? Until you think a little bit deeper, you can't just say dismissive, pithy things that only favor one side.
This isn't a sports team. You can't just pick a side and cheer for them no matter what.
I'm not advocating for Hamas, I'm advocating for the non-combatants who just want to send their kids to school.
As Martin Luther King famously said, "Violence is the language of the unheard."
Israel has killed ten times the people compared to who? Oh yeah, the other "side", who also has killed a bunch of civilians.
I'm not talking a pro-Hamas position. I'm taking a pro-child position. You don't give a fuck about people though.
Straight up overreaction to someone saying that the post was right, because it is.
It's self-referential meaning the western world is complicit in ALL the death there, both sides, because the Western allies of Israel have never forced them to the table to hammer out an actual solution.
What solution can they hammer out? Trying a two state solution again?
truth, the west must burn
Hard pass on that. I like my democracy.
lemmyworld seems to only care about sitting in their house avoiding issues
Where are you sitting right now?
On the bus, gotta say americans are really fucking ass at public transport too. Did yall forget how to build buses or did you kill your only architect for being anti-american again?
settlers aren't civilians
In a complete shock to everyone, the guy with the tankie name is all for the deaths of innocent civilians
At least they wear it like a badge of honor, making it easy to identify and ignore them
He's ready to hunt down the baby settlers and run them over with a T-90
We should give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's only advocating for the ~25% (2m people or so) of the Israeli civilian population that's not native born to be killed? Or maybe only the ~500k Israeli civilians who are >75 years old that were alive to see the 1948 war and creation of the state? Maybe some combination of the two? Surely a tankie can't be advocating for the genocide of an entire nation?
Edit: Oh he messaged me instead of replying? Not sure if that was on accident but:
No no, you misunderstand me, when I say "ignore" I only mean disregard your opinions, there's no way I'd miss out on pointing and laughing with everyone else at the genocidal tankies, we have to make sure nobody around here thinks it's an appropriate opinion to have
They DM'd me too, I suspect mods banned him. Given his account is only a few hours old, I don't get why he's not just making another one.
He is banned, for his constant insults and attacks on other users.
Cool
both hamas and the israeli government want war not peace you can't reason with that
Hamas wants freedom, they deserve that
Israel wants to commit ethnic cleansing, each one that supports that should be locked in a prison
"issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding the terror group hamas. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them""
Terrorists consider civilian casualties to be a scorecard. Hamas benefits when there's Israeli civilian casualties. Hamas also benefits when there's Palestinian civilian casualties.
That's the whole point of taking hostages isn't it? To force Israel into a ground campaign which will cause Palestinian civilian casualties.
The military forces of civilized nations don't consider civilian casualties to be a victory no matter which side it's on. They have an objective and need to achieve that objective while minimizing civilian casualties. The objective of the IDF is to free the hostages. They will make an effort to minimize civilian casualties. But they must achieve that objective even while know civilian causalities are a certainty even when they make an to keep those casualties to a minimum.
This is the nature of war. And this is a war Hamas started. And remember there could be significantly fewer casualties (and a humanitarian ceasefire) if Hamas released the hostages.
But they won't do that because their objective is to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties because many people look at those casualties and become angry and want to support them.
Netanyahu will lose power because of 1400 Israeli deaths. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered to be a failure by Israelis.
Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered a success by Hamas. They are psychopaths that know how people react to these numbers.
Constantly bombs refugee camps, schools, and hospitals This is just war, bro. Yeah we have the 4th most sophisticated and accurate military on earth but we just can't help hitting civilians who just happen to be a minority in their own land...
Dude, the logical hoops you'll jump through to justify a genocide is extremely concerning.
Holocaust scholars all over the world have even condemned the bloodshed.
This isn't the cost of war. It's punishment. It's imperialism.
I like your username
When a legitimate target is hiding among civilians, there are two possible responses:
No "buts". Like it or not, defend it or not, that's what non-civilized nations do.
Yep, genocide not cool Israel. The future will not be kind to you.
But only because they are the ones in power. If the positions of power were reversed, it'd be pretty much the same thing, except Hamas would be the one performing the apartheid and the genocide.
It's probably true. But it's still a disproportionate response.
Bullshit made up comment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
"Violence is the language of the unheard" - MLK
So not bullshit, just something you want to excuse.
If Israel wasn't stealing the land of Palestinians, there would be no Hamas.
Perhaps, but that doesn't excuse what Hamas has stated for itself to stand for.
Sure it does. The jews are the occupying force that is committing genocide against their people. You don't expect them to have an opinion about that?
Nope, sorry. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because someone was abused as a child doesn't give him a free pass to abuse their own children. Also:
That's a pretty racist/antisemitic way to put it, specially when there have been protests by Jews against both Netanyahu and his "war". Neozionist, ultra-orthodox, colonists; take your pick, any or all are better ways to refer to those responsible.
Calling them an occupying force is not racist. They are on native land that doesn't belong to them. They are in violation of international law.
Well now I just think you are gaslighting.
You seem to not understand what a proportionate response in war is. Israel's goal is extermination of the terrorist threat in Gaza, their actions are proportional for those goals. Not lost in the calculation is the terrorists saying they intend on continuing their terror attacks on civilians, making a ceasefire all but impossible to institute.
The question of whether or not it's humane or ethical is a different question that should be debated.
The only reason a terrorist threat exists at all is that Israel has openly said they are trying to genocide Palestinians. Combined with the last 30 years of Apartheid they've already done.
How did this recent war start again?
75 years isn't that recent
Mhm it's almost like after 75 years there are generations that have been born on this land, and now are the locals.
So you're for a 1 state solution with equal rights and a government ran by the majority like south Africa?
Sure, or a 10 state solution. Whatever, the number of states doesn't matter.
I oppose absolute democracy. I would support a representative state with strong constitutional protections.
South Africa is a representative state dude
I know, I'm not even specifically talking about South Africa. I'm addressing the "ran by the majority" part.
Unless you want to do crazy gerrymandering then democracies are as a rule ran by a majority
No, that's what constitutions and non-capita-proportional republics are for
Unless you want to do crazy gerrymandering then democracies are as a rule ran by a majority
By Israel running an apartheid state and committing countless war crimes against the people of Gaza. What is your point exactly?
HAMAS deserves to win lmao
Do they though?
It's people like you who are why more children will die. The savage thirst for the blood of Jews will lead to countless Palestinians dying.
Both sides may have fault however there is a fundamental difference between Israel and Hamas. Hamas is a relatively small terrorist group from a region (Gaza) that has been oppressed and had food, water, and electricity limited (even before the war). Meanwhile Israel has one of the largest militaries and occupies Gaza. The death toll and injuries are not even compatible nor the sheer scale of the war crimes committed by Israel.
Have you considered that if Gaza didn’t have terrorist groups they might a functioning society and government?
Have you considered that Gaza wouldn't have terrorist groups if the people had basic human rights?
Well, given that the reason Gaza is occupied is because of the terrorist groups, I think order of operations is somewhat disputed.
This is 70 years of tit for tat. My point is that both parties here are wrong.
There is no good or bad guy, just two bad guys.
The reason why Gaza is colonized is because Palestinians didn't want to split their land with a European settler colonialists. They resisted Israeli domination and lost.
I’m starting to think it’s all bad guys everywhere.
if you are looking at a genocide and taking the idiots position of 'but my both sides bad' you don't deserve to have an opinion
fuck off to your couch you fucking bitch
That's incorrect. The existence of the terrorist groups are the result of Resolution 181 and the ensuing war that established the modern day boundaries of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza.
The continued support for these terrorists groups has been bolstered in part by the heavy-handed tactics of Israel and the animosity between Israel and regional powers, but the original sin here was the British (and much of the western world) cowtowing to Zionists to create a theoretical two-state solution from scratch and overlaying it on an existing mixed-background area known as Palestine.
There are a lot of movie parts here, but the simple enmity between hardline Muslims and hardline Jews predates pretty much everyone currently alive on this planet.
Resolution 181 is a red herring.
There were already Arab vs. Zionist clashes before it, and they would have continued with or without a resolution that nobody was following. Only thing the British can be seen at fault for, is leaving without having enforced 181... which meant leaving Israel alone to fight a war against a coordinated attack from multiple Arab countries at once. Not precisely "cowtowing" to Israel.
Modern terrorist groups are the result of Israel going against its own Declaration of Independence where it promised to follow 181, and instead trying to get exclusive control of the whole territory... while Palestinians are getting pummeled, but still also refuse to consider a two-state solution, leaving them in an underdog position where all they can do is some terrorist attacks and wait to get destroyed.
oh shut the fuck up you fascist liar
It's good to see that reddit-level discourse has arrived.
You mean like the West Bank? 🙃
The West Bank is free from terrorist groups? 🤯
No, the IDF is still terrorising there.
Cute. I would encourage you to go attend a pride parade in Gaza or the West Bank and let me know how it goes.
Leopards and faces.
Maybe if israeli hardliners didn't support the founding of Hamas and assassinate Rabin they could have reached a peaceful solution almost 20 years ago?
Fuck, he aged a lot.
Well thought out response from someone who knows how to captivate an audience. I miss his leadership even if there were some key flaws during his terms (e.g. the gross overuse of drone strikes).
Ultimately, no president is perfect but I also believe their ability to be a figure head who can make the public look inward, from time to time, is important.
Trump did nothing to lead. He just spread anger and hostility. Biden, while he means well, has never been the beet public speaker (both in presence and in avoiding putting his foot in his mouth).
I'd rather have an effective leader than a charismatic one. I don't elect presidents to assuage my fee-fees, and the fact that the rest of the population does is the problem.
It's unfortunate but charisma is a very important component in contemporary American politics. I think that's largely the reason Hillary lost the election. Trump is not as qualified as she was but he is much more charismatic. I think it's because people don't care enough to do stay informed and research candidates. So they make emotional decisions based on the stupidest criteria. The biggest example is one of the factors that got George W elected/reelected, "I'd rather have a beer with him than the other guy" .
That needs to change and adults who refuse to need to have their ability to vote taken away from them.
Most adults simply aren't qualified to run a democracy and we can't continue destroying everything to dumb it down for them to appease them. I probably count among their number and if those depraved assholes couldn't vote anymore, I'd accept not being able to vote anymore, too.
Find someone like John Kerry and make him king. Have an AI do it. Force people to submit to extensive psychological and IQ testing throughout their lives if they want to vote. There's a way to do it fairly. Ignorant assholes might not think it's fair, but their opinions can't matter anymore if we're to escape tyranny and have happy meaningful lives.
We are capable of reason and overcoming our emotions. We can't just submit to the will of those who refuse to. They're no more powerful than you or I.
The core of a democracy is that people get to choose their own leaders. Even though I agree with you that I wish people took voting more seriously. I don't think people should lose their right to vote because I disagree with their decision making process. If you want to flip a coin or roll dice or whatever as long as it's your own choice then you can vote for whomever you want. Even if I utterly disagree with that process. That's what a right is. It's innately a part of you. Unless you commit a felony per Richardson v. Ramirez
Well, people openly choosing emotions over rationality at the cost of everything they hold dear and bringing untold harm to everyone else around them, including genocide, isn't "disagreeing with their decision making process". It's a credible accusation of wrongdoing.
Because what's even more innate than your rights are you responsibilities, and that means you have to put rationality and what's best for your community above whoever makes you feel the best when you interact with them or when you watch them speak. We're supposed to run the most powerful nation in the world, one with nuclear weapons, and that means our responsibilities trump our rights and petty desires.
That's what being an adult means.
And if people refuse to do so, then they shouldn't have that power and influence over politics.
The truth is there's nothing innate about voting, humans are not like other animals like bees that can have stable democratic societies (if you want to call beehives that), we're too selfish and cruel for that, but we also evolved with the capability to overcome those animalistic tendencies. And if we want to survive and have the kind of life we want, we have to be willing to do so no matter how shitty it makes us feel.
We can't afford to just be animals anymore. We're literally destroying the planet. Too much hangs in the balance and if you continue to defend people putting their feelings before facts simply because you feel the same way, no surface life will exist aside from some bacteria and a few pestilence bugs and we have to work for more than that.
effectiveness is when you pretend you solved covid and suffer from dementia
Who did you vote for the last five elections and why?
voted for no one because all of the presidents are genocidal imperialist trash that would be dragged behind a barn and shot if this world had any justice
Yawn.
sigh
“It’s complicated” is no excuse to be arming an already powerful nation with our tax dollars to make the situation more “complicated.”
If it’s so damn complicated, maybe we shouldn’t be sending arms and tax dollars directly over to Israel, but rather send humanitarian aid to both sides instead.
Taking a side in a complicated conflict of which many people don’t fully understand is an unwise decision, and using tax dollars to arm one or even both sides of a conflict we don’t fully understand is unethical.
Its their job to understand it, and they do. what they understand is that while supporting israel has a monetary cost , it secures our trade routes, which egypt has tried to close purely because 'fuck you' through the Mediterranean and puts pressure on the rest of the middle east to support the petrol dollar.
If the arab countries were remotely as friendly as israel, itd diminish their value as an ally potentially to the extent that we wouldnt have to overlook the atrocities they commit. The reality is that ISIS and Hezbollah and Hamas are 100x worse. Ad soon as Iran gets nukes, theyre going to become another north korea, potentially a catalyst for WW3, and we need an ally in the region as leverage to prevent that.
What this latest conflict has shown is that they will absolutely make suicidally stupid attacks that will result in massive casualties to their own people, so long as it advances their goal of genociding jews and anyone else thats not an arab.
Say what you want about israel, but theyve been on the brink of kicking netanyahu and his racist ass out of office for years. Hes in a very similar situation legally to Trump. Hamas's attack has virtually ensured that won't happen now , as the nation enters a state of emergency, and theyve proved his fear mongering true.
Wow Barack "double Bush's drone strikes, kill 12,000 Afghani civilians, and bomb a Doctor's Without Boarders hospital" Obama wants to show restraint now that he's no longer in a position to stop the bloodshed...
Reflection is something obama has obviously not done after commiting untold atrocities as he rolled over the middle east as a fucking imperialist bitch
Didn't he drop more bombs in Afghanistan and the middle East during his time in office?
(that's a legit question - I don't know or claim to know)
Get the fuck out of here with your Tucker Carlson "I'm just asking questions" bullshit. The little kids table is to the left of the soft serve machine.
I don't know what a trucker Carlson is. Is that a light beer for truckers? (again. I have? Idea)
But for your info. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-president-barack-obama-bomb-map-drone-wars-strikes-20000-pakistan-middle-east-afghanistan-a7534851.html
I don't k ow what you are suggesting. Nor do I understand the down votes for asking a question about a country that isn't mine.
Life Must be hard with you being so soft that questions hurt.
you say as if you children haven't left the ball pit
Me children what?
What "complexities"? There is absolutely nothing "complex" about white supremacist settler-colonialism. End of story.
What "Israel-Hamas war"? Israel has been waging war on Palestinians since 1949 - long before Hames existed.
Fuck Barack "No We Can't!" Obama and his lib blame-shifting bullshittery.
It's a rarity to see someone with their head so far up their own ass as to say something like that and be completely serious.
Oh look... more people hiding their support for white supremacist settler-colonialism behind (alleged) "complexities."
I'd say that if you are finding it difficult to see someone with their head up their own ass you should try shoving a mirror where the sun don't shine - it's not going to work for you any other way.
Nuh-uh. You are not dragging me into this shit. I didn't want any of it!
He’s talking more broadly about governments and factions, not individual people
Right. People like simple narratives: "A is the Good Side. They don't do anything bad. If A does something that looks bad, it's because Evil B made them. Everyone within A are saints. B is that Evil Side. Everything they do is evil. If B does something that looks good, it's either propaganda or a trick. Everyone in B are devils and deserve to be wiped out!"
In truth, both sides in this conflict have done horrible things (and, no, committing atrocities "because you had a good reason" doesn't absolve the atrocities). In addition, there are foreign elements tossing gas on the fire. Iran on the Hamas side, giving them resources to kill Jews. Evangelical Christians on the Israeli side, supporting settlers and right wing politicians in the hopes that a big attack will happen and get Jesus to come back.
The whole region is a Gordian Knot, but too many people just want simple answers. If the answer was simple, we'd have peace there by now.
tax dollars paying for it say what?
Same. Maybe he means the pols. Yeah, right.