‘Nobody’s hands are clean’: Obama urges reflection amid Israel-Hamas conflict
politico.com
Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”
“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.
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This is bullshit. Israel's response is completely disproportionate. 2000+ children are dead in Gaza.
I don't see where Obama said anything about things being proportionate, and I don't know what "proportionate" has to do with the fact that heinous acts have been taken by both sides.
There's no "both sides" to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.
How many times can you poke a bear before it decides it's done?
It's not an excuse. Israel's actions are absolutely disproportionate. I can argue either side, but that's exactly the point. Nobody's hands are clean. You don't have to condone Israel's actions to understand they were provoked.
There can never be peace without both sides admitting some fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. 9061 wrongs don't cancel out 1400 wrongs. That's not how any of this works.
What do you suggest Israel does? What do you suggest Palestinians in Gaza do? Until you think a little bit deeper, you can't just say dismissive, pithy things that only favor one side.
This isn't a sports team. You can't just pick a side and cheer for them no matter what.
I'm not advocating for Hamas, I'm advocating for the non-combatants who just want to send their kids to school.
As Martin Luther King famously said, "Violence is the language of the unheard."
Israel has killed ten times the people compared to who? Oh yeah, the other "side", who also has killed a bunch of civilians.
I'm not talking a pro-Hamas position. I'm taking a pro-child position. You don't give a fuck about people though.
Straight up overreaction to someone saying that the post was right, because it is.
It's self-referential meaning the western world is complicit in ALL the death there, both sides, because the Western allies of Israel have never forced them to the table to hammer out an actual solution.
What solution can they hammer out? Trying a two state solution again?
truth, the west must burn
Hard pass on that. I like my democracy.
lemmyworld seems to only care about sitting in their house avoiding issues
Where are you sitting right now?
On the bus, gotta say americans are really fucking ass at public transport too. Did yall forget how to build buses or did you kill your only architect for being anti-american again?
settlers aren't civilians
In a complete shock to everyone, the guy with the tankie name is all for the deaths of innocent civilians
At least they wear it like a badge of honor, making it easy to identify and ignore them
He's ready to hunt down the baby settlers and run them over with a T-90
We should give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's only advocating for the ~25% (2m people or so) of the Israeli civilian population that's not native born to be killed? Or maybe only the ~500k Israeli civilians who are >75 years old that were alive to see the 1948 war and creation of the state? Maybe some combination of the two? Surely a tankie can't be advocating for the genocide of an entire nation?
Edit: Oh he messaged me instead of replying? Not sure if that was on accident but:
No no, you misunderstand me, when I say "ignore" I only mean disregard your opinions, there's no way I'd miss out on pointing and laughing with everyone else at the genocidal tankies, we have to make sure nobody around here thinks it's an appropriate opinion to have
They DM'd me too, I suspect mods banned him. Given his account is only a few hours old, I don't get why he's not just making another one.
He is banned, for his constant insults and attacks on other users.
Cool
both hamas and the israeli government want war not peace you can't reason with that
Hamas wants freedom, they deserve that
Israel wants to commit ethnic cleansing, each one that supports that should be locked in a prison
"issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding the terror group hamas. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them""
Terrorists consider civilian casualties to be a scorecard. Hamas benefits when there's Israeli civilian casualties. Hamas also benefits when there's Palestinian civilian casualties.
That's the whole point of taking hostages isn't it? To force Israel into a ground campaign which will cause Palestinian civilian casualties.
The military forces of civilized nations don't consider civilian casualties to be a victory no matter which side it's on. They have an objective and need to achieve that objective while minimizing civilian casualties. The objective of the IDF is to free the hostages. They will make an effort to minimize civilian casualties. But they must achieve that objective even while know civilian causalities are a certainty even when they make an to keep those casualties to a minimum.
This is the nature of war. And this is a war Hamas started. And remember there could be significantly fewer casualties (and a humanitarian ceasefire) if Hamas released the hostages.
But they won't do that because their objective is to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties because many people look at those casualties and become angry and want to support them.
Netanyahu will lose power because of 1400 Israeli deaths. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered to be a failure by Israelis.
Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered a success by Hamas. They are psychopaths that know how people react to these numbers.
Constantly bombs refugee camps, schools, and hospitals This is just war, bro. Yeah we have the 4th most sophisticated and accurate military on earth but we just can't help hitting civilians who just happen to be a minority in their own land...
Dude, the logical hoops you'll jump through to justify a genocide is extremely concerning.
Holocaust scholars all over the world have even condemned the bloodshed.
This isn't the cost of war. It's punishment. It's imperialism.
I like your username
When a legitimate target is hiding among civilians, there are two possible responses:
No "buts". Like it or not, defend it or not, that's what non-civilized nations do.
Yep, genocide not cool Israel. The future will not be kind to you.
But only because they are the ones in power. If the positions of power were reversed, it'd be pretty much the same thing, except Hamas would be the one performing the apartheid and the genocide.
It's probably true. But it's still a disproportionate response.
Bullshit made up comment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
"Violence is the language of the unheard" - MLK
So not bullshit, just something you want to excuse.
If Israel wasn't stealing the land of Palestinians, there would be no Hamas.
Perhaps, but that doesn't excuse what Hamas has stated for itself to stand for.
Sure it does. The jews are the occupying force that is committing genocide against their people. You don't expect them to have an opinion about that?
Nope, sorry. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because someone was abused as a child doesn't give him a free pass to abuse their own children. Also:
That's a pretty racist/antisemitic way to put it, specially when there have been protests by Jews against both Netanyahu and his "war". Neozionist, ultra-orthodox, colonists; take your pick, any or all are better ways to refer to those responsible.
Calling them an occupying force is not racist. They are on native land that doesn't belong to them. They are in violation of international law.
Well now I just think you are gaslighting.
You seem to not understand what a proportionate response in war is. Israel's goal is extermination of the terrorist threat in Gaza, their actions are proportional for those goals. Not lost in the calculation is the terrorists saying they intend on continuing their terror attacks on civilians, making a ceasefire all but impossible to institute.
The question of whether or not it's humane or ethical is a different question that should be debated.
The only reason a terrorist threat exists at all is that Israel has openly said they are trying to genocide Palestinians. Combined with the last 30 years of Apartheid they've already done.
How did this recent war start again?
75 years isn't that recent
Mhm it's almost like after 75 years there are generations that have been born on this land, and now are the locals.
So you're for a 1 state solution with equal rights and a government ran by the majority like south Africa?
Sure, or a 10 state solution. Whatever, the number of states doesn't matter.
I oppose absolute democracy. I would support a representative state with strong constitutional protections.
South Africa is a representative state dude
I know, I'm not even specifically talking about South Africa. I'm addressing the "ran by the majority" part.
Unless you want to do crazy gerrymandering then democracies are as a rule ran by a majority
Unless you want to do crazy gerrymandering then democracies are as a rule ran by a majority
No, that's what constitutions and non-capita-proportional republics are for
By Israel running an apartheid state and committing countless war crimes against the people of Gaza. What is your point exactly?
HAMAS deserves to win lmao
Do they though?
It's people like you who are why more children will die. The savage thirst for the blood of Jews will lead to countless Palestinians dying.