Crazy that they opened fire on people trying to break in to an unoccupied vehicle.
EDIT: Jesus Christ people. Do you think it's ok to discharge a firearm in public to attempt to wound or kill someone trying to break in to an unoccupied vehicle? That's insane.
A secret service vehicle likely has fully automatic weapons inside as well as encrypted radios with current keys and who knows what level of sensitive real time info on presidential movements. It wasn’t just an “unoccupied car” it was a liability that could lead to real danger to the public.
A secret service vehicle likely has fully automatic weapons inside
No one should be leaving weapons and especially full automatic weapons unattended in a god damn vehicle!
...who knows what level of sensitive real time info on presidential movements.
How fucking dumb do you have to be to leave sensitive security information lying around unattended in a vehicle!
It wasn’t just an “unoccupied car” it was a liability that could lead to real danger to the public.
Any vehicle so stuffed with weapons and confidential information that it needs to be defended by lethal force shouldn't be parked and left unattended on a public street! Everything that you've offered isn't justification for lethal force, it's describing behavior so negligent that it would literally rise to the level of CRIMINAL PROSECUTION for any regular person.
The guns wouldn’t just be laying across the back seat but they have to be stored somewhere. Most law enforcement vehicles have fixed weapon mounts or ways to lock them in the trunk. The problem is that if the vehicle is stolen it takes 5 min with a power tool to get through virtually any vehicle based mount. The locks prevent smash and grabs but with full possession of the vehicle the guns are up for grabs. As for information, an encrypted laptop is one thing but even knowing which frequencies and codes are used that day might be valuable to the wrong person. I don’t know, I’m not USSS but I am an Air Force pilot who has flown them all over the world and been in their cars/limos. I also know how loading military encryption into the jet is and I imagine it’s not too different from their gear. On a side note, when you see a USSS dog in a “do not pet” vest, it’s not illegal to ask to pet it. I have petted sooooo many “do not pet” goodbois.
The problem is that if the vehicle is stolen it takes 5 min with a power tool to get through virtually any vehicle based mount.
I'm aware of vehicle mounts and the ease at which firearms can be removed from them. Its why every LE agency I'm aware of has a policy that you can't leave the vehicle unattended with weapons stored in them.
...an encrypted laptop is one thing...
These should not be left in an unattended vehicle. Even a complete moron knows not to leave valuables in a parked car in the D.C. area and the USSS are not morons. They are people and they fuck up occasionally but they are not morons.
I am an Air Force pilot...
Then you should be well aware of the rules regarding the handling of classified information. At the most basic level its not lawful to leave it unattended in any area where someone with insufficient clearance could gain access to it.
The USSS Personnel who discharged their firearm(s) weren't fighting off terrorists or trying to keep weapons or confidential information secure. According to the released details they fucked up and fired when they shouldn't have at suspects who presented no clear danger.
I have petted sooooo many “do not pet” goodbois.
Goodbois deserve all the pets, as long as you have permission. 🙂
literally rise to the level of CRIMINAL PROSECUTION for any regular person.
Yeah no shit dude it's the secret service.
You honestly don't want the SS to have guns stashed inside vehicles? Really?
Cmon bud. Think this through.
How fucking dumb do you have to be to leave sensitive security information lying around unattended in a vehicle!
Literally everything about the vehicle is sensitive security information
It's easy to dehumanizing people.
Yes, however keeping humanity in mind does not mean you never fire your weapon.
Shooting at someone for trying to break into an unoccupied car is an extreme response. Pointing a weapon at them should have been more than enough
There are real threats at that level though. Disabling the SUV could easily be the prelude to an attack because it's the primary mode of escape. If that's not it then you're also responsible for protecting the automatic rifles and classified information in the vehicle. The vehicle itself is also highly classified to prevent people from knowing how to breach it's armor.
Presumably they went through the use of force continuum and got to warning shot because the guy ain't dead and the Secret Service protection agents train at an elite level.
Common sense says you don't need to shoot at people trying to break into a car.
What about protecting the President's family says "common" to you?
She wasn't in the vehicle...
I refer you to my original comment.
If that’s not it then you’re also responsible for protecting the automatic rifles and classified information in the vehicle. The
No vehicle stuffed with automatic weapons and classified information should be parked in a public area and left unattended. You'd have to be dumber than a fucking rock to do it because leaving full auto weapons and / or classified information unsecured are criminal violations under Federal Law!
Well it seems like it wasn't left unattended at all.
You're downvoted but that surprised me as well, being the Secret Service and not [local] police. The perpetrators fled in a vehicle. Doesn't sound like they were a threat; just car thieves trying to flee.
Important to note that only one Secret Service member opened fire. That makes me more suspicious that it was an unjustified use of force.
That's an irresponsible reason to discharge firearms in public. Not worth risking innocent bystanders' lives over petty car thieves.
I expect this armchair analyst from reddit.
Welp, looks like we got them here too
What exactly are we supposed to talk about in the comments section of an article?
The weather is nice but I heard it was supposed to rain tomorrow. Hey did you read that other article about Trump? I don't want an opinion, just to know if you've seen it. As you know we're forbidden from offering opinions.
Ideally not make things up and treat it as fact.
Yeah, fuck me for expressing an opinion in relevant discussion that differs from yours.
I hoped toxic circle-jerking, downvoting every dissenting opinion, and upvoting memes and off-topic jokes over relevant discussion would stay on reddit, but here we are.
The problem isn't stating a opinion. You literally made up shit based on a sentence..
The Secret Service are cop-adjacent to the point that they more than deserve a side eye at the best of times.
But a visibly unarmed person trying to get into the car could very easily be carrying explosives. Since... that would be a reason you would try to compromise the vehicle of a high value target. It goes against basically all gun safety, but driving them off from a likely populated area is probably in that "Net good?" territory.
Especially after trump's presidency and the actions of his corrupt secret service officers, I think they need both eyes staring; not just a side eye.
I just have different expectations of different law enforcement agencies. I guess the stakes are significantly higher in protecting VIPs as secret service, but I still don't believe that it warrants risking the lives of bystanders in this scenario.
I don't believe Biden's grand daughter's life is more valuable than a random passerby's. But obviously the secret service aren't going to view it that way. I can comprehend their duty, but I disagree with firing here.
Reality isn't an episode of NCIS or the show where Little Stark clearly has an Oedipus Complex. Bombs are big with a large radius, especially if they are set up to project shrapnel. The brave veteran walking up is just encouraging them to trigger the detonator and said veteran's misted body isn't going to really protect anyone. If anything, it will mean bone fragments.
100 meters is approximately an American football field. I sincerely doubt the Secret Service parked her car a football field away from any buildings or other people.
Firing a gun "as a warning" is immensely stupid and dangerous. But I can very much see a world where it is better to risk shooting one or two civillians than it is letting dozens, if not hundreds, get killed while you attempt to surround said terrorist.
It is less saying that Joey's Granddaughter is more valuable than civilians. It is saying that many civilians are more valuable than one or two.
I largely disagree and would want a pretty thorough investigation by a trustworthy third party (and since ACAB, that doesn't exist...) but I can very much see the math on how this was a lesser evil.
Reality isn't an episode of NCIS
Proceeds to sound like someone who's watching too much crime/action TV, and is jumping to conclusions about random internet strangers and secret service members...
And where are you getting this bomb threat and warning shot? The article repeatedly states they "opened fire" and there is absolutely no mention of a bomb or a warning shot.
Are you just assuming the shots fired were warning shots? Are you assuming they perceived this to be a bomb threat? It seems like you're constructing a straw man argument.
And 3 men attempting to break into a car is not something I think justifies jumping to the conclusion of explosives or use of lethal force.
Deepest apologies for not restating the entirety of this discussion thread every single time I reply. I forget that not everyone has the ability to keep a concept in their head for more than one reply.
I am going to assume you read the article. In part because if you are incapable of remembering that then there is no point discussing anything at all. Mostly because I am too lazy to drag the joke on that long.
So what we know is:
Strange people were trying to break into the vehicle of a high value target. At least one secret service agent opened fire. They allowed the suspects to escape in a different car.
That tells me that they were not "shooting to kill". Otherwise they would have lit up that car like it was Murphy asking Red Foreman about the letter of leniency he wrote.
Which gets back to: People are tampering with the vehicle of a high value target. Maybe they aren't carrying guns. But they very easily could be carrying a bomb to use to kill said person.
I REALLY hope protocol is not to just unload and ask questions later... I would not be overly shocked if it were. But if you have decided someone is a threat, and a bomb threat is a very reasonable assumption in this case, standing around establishing a perimiter is not really an option if you at all care about the surroundings. And putting down your gun, taking out your earwig, and approaching them is stupid beyond belief if your name is not Leroy Jethro Gibbs.
I've had to work with other orgs to make emergency protocols for facilities in the past. And bomb threats really are "Basically everyone is fucked because the act of warning people is a good way to set it off". Fire, active shooter, and even biological attacks are situations where your goal is to save everyone (whether law enforcement are on the same page is a different problem...). Bombs? You are on triage. You are trying to minimize harm while acknowledging that, if it is real, people will die.
Wow.. way to extrapolate a great many assumptions from such little information. You really ought to be careful jumping to conclusions around all those slippery slopes.
And yes, I remembered your other comment. Have you ever heard of rhetorical questions? Do you understand how questions can be used to make points and further discussion?
It's always entertaining to me when someone attempts to paint someone as an idiot, and is too dense to realize they are making such ass of themselves.
Thanks for the amusement. I try not to feed trolls and toxic users, so this is it. Feel free to get the last word in to feel like you "won" an argument and pat yourself on the back.
Hopefully some day you can smell your own shit on your knees.
The Secret Service are law enforcement. Protecting presidents and their families is there most visible role but their original mandate and still primary role is to protect the integrity of US currency with a particular focus on combating counterfeiting.
Yes. Scope creep and repurposing is a long tradition.
But it is also largely irrelevant in this case as the investigative training and procedures used by the currency division are largely unrelated to the bodyguarding done by the.. bodyguard division. It is like arguing that all Army Pilots and Mechanics are also specialized in close quarters combat and clearing buildings. Maybe they remember some stuff from basic training but they are on a drastically different career path.
Culturally? I doubt they are all that different and plenty of them are all about "blue lives matter". But that is why I say they are "cop-adjacent".
The Secret Service are police. They are most well known for protecting presidents and their families but their original and primary mandate is to protect the integrity of US currency. They have jurisdiction over all federal financial crimes and a particular focus on counterfeiting.
I understand that. What I meant was in comparison to local police and Sherrifs departments. I certainly don't view them the same, just as I have different expectations from FBI, DEA, etc. (None very positive, mind you..)
This is America.
If the secret service didn't use excessive force they would probably be reprimanded!
No mention that the thieves had weapons or anything.
Just start blasting?
No mention that they were unarmed either. The article in general is very light on details.
For all we know the secret service shot their own car in a very loud demonstration of "fuck off"
The car is most likely bullet proof
Meaning it’s far more expensive to repair if it gets hit
Crazy that they opened fire on people trying to break in to an unoccupied vehicle.
EDIT: Jesus Christ people. Do you think it's ok to discharge a firearm in public to attempt to wound or kill someone trying to break in to an unoccupied vehicle? That's insane.
A secret service vehicle likely has fully automatic weapons inside as well as encrypted radios with current keys and who knows what level of sensitive real time info on presidential movements. It wasn’t just an “unoccupied car” it was a liability that could lead to real danger to the public.
No one should be leaving weapons and especially full automatic weapons unattended in a god damn vehicle!
How fucking dumb do you have to be to leave sensitive security information lying around unattended in a vehicle!
Any vehicle so stuffed with weapons and confidential information that it needs to be defended by lethal force shouldn't be parked and left unattended on a public street! Everything that you've offered isn't justification for lethal force, it's describing behavior so negligent that it would literally rise to the level of CRIMINAL PROSECUTION for any regular person.
The guns wouldn’t just be laying across the back seat but they have to be stored somewhere. Most law enforcement vehicles have fixed weapon mounts or ways to lock them in the trunk. The problem is that if the vehicle is stolen it takes 5 min with a power tool to get through virtually any vehicle based mount. The locks prevent smash and grabs but with full possession of the vehicle the guns are up for grabs. As for information, an encrypted laptop is one thing but even knowing which frequencies and codes are used that day might be valuable to the wrong person. I don’t know, I’m not USSS but I am an Air Force pilot who has flown them all over the world and been in their cars/limos. I also know how loading military encryption into the jet is and I imagine it’s not too different from their gear. On a side note, when you see a USSS dog in a “do not pet” vest, it’s not illegal to ask to pet it. I have petted sooooo many “do not pet” goodbois.
I'm aware of vehicle mounts and the ease at which firearms can be removed from them. Its why every LE agency I'm aware of has a policy that you can't leave the vehicle unattended with weapons stored in them.
These should not be left in an unattended vehicle. Even a complete moron knows not to leave valuables in a parked car in the D.C. area and the USSS are not morons. They are people and they fuck up occasionally but they are not morons.
Then you should be well aware of the rules regarding the handling of classified information. At the most basic level its not lawful to leave it unattended in any area where someone with insufficient clearance could gain access to it.
The USSS Personnel who discharged their firearm(s) weren't fighting off terrorists or trying to keep weapons or confidential information secure. According to the released details they fucked up and fired when they shouldn't have at suspects who presented no clear danger.
Goodbois deserve all the pets, as long as you have permission. 🙂
Yeah no shit dude it's the secret service.
You honestly don't want the SS to have guns stashed inside vehicles? Really?
Cmon bud. Think this through.
Literally everything about the vehicle is sensitive security information
It's easy to dehumanizing people.
Yes, however keeping humanity in mind does not mean you never fire your weapon.
Shooting at someone for trying to break into an unoccupied car is an extreme response. Pointing a weapon at them should have been more than enough
There are real threats at that level though. Disabling the SUV could easily be the prelude to an attack because it's the primary mode of escape. If that's not it then you're also responsible for protecting the automatic rifles and classified information in the vehicle. The vehicle itself is also highly classified to prevent people from knowing how to breach it's armor.
Presumably they went through the use of force continuum and got to warning shot because the guy ain't dead and the Secret Service protection agents train at an elite level.
Common sense says you don't need to shoot at people trying to break into a car.
What about protecting the President's family says "common" to you?
She wasn't in the vehicle...
I refer you to my original comment.
No vehicle stuffed with automatic weapons and classified information should be parked in a public area and left unattended. You'd have to be dumber than a fucking rock to do it because leaving full auto weapons and / or classified information unsecured are criminal violations under Federal Law!
Well it seems like it wasn't left unattended at all.
You're downvoted but that surprised me as well, being the Secret Service and not [local] police. The perpetrators fled in a vehicle. Doesn't sound like they were a threat; just car thieves trying to flee.
Important to note that only one Secret Service member opened fire. That makes me more suspicious that it was an unjustified use of force.
That's an irresponsible reason to discharge firearms in public. Not worth risking innocent bystanders' lives over petty car thieves.
I expect this armchair analyst from reddit.
Welp, looks like we got them here too
What exactly are we supposed to talk about in the comments section of an article?
The weather is nice but I heard it was supposed to rain tomorrow. Hey did you read that other article about Trump? I don't want an opinion, just to know if you've seen it. As you know we're forbidden from offering opinions.
Ideally not make things up and treat it as fact.
Yeah, fuck me for expressing an opinion in relevant discussion that differs from yours.
I hoped toxic circle-jerking, downvoting every dissenting opinion, and upvoting memes and off-topic jokes over relevant discussion would stay on reddit, but here we are.
The problem isn't stating a opinion. You literally made up shit based on a sentence..
The Secret Service are cop-adjacent to the point that they more than deserve a side eye at the best of times.
But a visibly unarmed person trying to get into the car could very easily be carrying explosives. Since... that would be a reason you would try to compromise the vehicle of a high value target. It goes against basically all gun safety, but driving them off from a likely populated area is probably in that "Net good?" territory.
Especially after trump's presidency and the actions of his corrupt secret service officers, I think they need both eyes staring; not just a side eye.
I just have different expectations of different law enforcement agencies. I guess the stakes are significantly higher in protecting VIPs as secret service, but I still don't believe that it warrants risking the lives of bystanders in this scenario.
I don't believe Biden's grand daughter's life is more valuable than a random passerby's. But obviously the secret service aren't going to view it that way. I can comprehend their duty, but I disagree with firing here.
Reality isn't an episode of NCIS or the show where Little Stark clearly has an Oedipus Complex. Bombs are big with a large radius, especially if they are set up to project shrapnel. The brave veteran walking up is just encouraging them to trigger the detonator and said veteran's misted body isn't going to really protect anyone. If anything, it will mean bone fragments.
A quick search that has DEFINITELY got me on a few federal watch lists (time to test Kagi's privacy, I guess...). One kg of C4 is about a 100 meter radius. Which roughly lines up with https://www.dni.gov/files/NCTC/documents/features_documents/2006_calendar_bomb_stand_chart.pdf
100 meters is approximately an American football field. I sincerely doubt the Secret Service parked her car a football field away from any buildings or other people.
Firing a gun "as a warning" is immensely stupid and dangerous. But I can very much see a world where it is better to risk shooting one or two civillians than it is letting dozens, if not hundreds, get killed while you attempt to surround said terrorist.
It is less saying that Joey's Granddaughter is more valuable than civilians. It is saying that many civilians are more valuable than one or two.
I largely disagree and would want a pretty thorough investigation by a trustworthy third party (and since ACAB, that doesn't exist...) but I can very much see the math on how this was a lesser evil.
Proceeds to sound like someone who's watching too much crime/action TV, and is jumping to conclusions about random internet strangers and secret service members...
And where are you getting this bomb threat and warning shot? The article repeatedly states they "opened fire" and there is absolutely no mention of a bomb or a warning shot.
Are you just assuming the shots fired were warning shots? Are you assuming they perceived this to be a bomb threat? It seems like you're constructing a straw man argument.
And 3 men attempting to break into a car is not something I think justifies jumping to the conclusion of explosives or use of lethal force.
Deepest apologies for not restating the entirety of this discussion thread every single time I reply. I forget that not everyone has the ability to keep a concept in their head for more than one reply.
I am going to assume you read the article. In part because if you are incapable of remembering that then there is no point discussing anything at all. Mostly because I am too lazy to drag the joke on that long.
So what we know is:
Strange people were trying to break into the vehicle of a high value target. At least one secret service agent opened fire. They allowed the suspects to escape in a different car.
That tells me that they were not "shooting to kill". Otherwise they would have lit up that car like it was Murphy asking Red Foreman about the letter of leniency he wrote.
Which gets back to: People are tampering with the vehicle of a high value target. Maybe they aren't carrying guns. But they very easily could be carrying a bomb to use to kill said person.
I REALLY hope protocol is not to just unload and ask questions later... I would not be overly shocked if it were. But if you have decided someone is a threat, and a bomb threat is a very reasonable assumption in this case, standing around establishing a perimiter is not really an option if you at all care about the surroundings. And putting down your gun, taking out your earwig, and approaching them is stupid beyond belief if your name is not Leroy Jethro Gibbs.
I've had to work with other orgs to make emergency protocols for facilities in the past. And bomb threats really are "Basically everyone is fucked because the act of warning people is a good way to set it off". Fire, active shooter, and even biological attacks are situations where your goal is to save everyone (whether law enforcement are on the same page is a different problem...). Bombs? You are on triage. You are trying to minimize harm while acknowledging that, if it is real, people will die.
Wow.. way to extrapolate a great many assumptions from such little information. You really ought to be careful jumping to conclusions around all those slippery slopes.
And yes, I remembered your other comment. Have you ever heard of rhetorical questions? Do you understand how questions can be used to make points and further discussion?
It's always entertaining to me when someone attempts to paint someone as an idiot, and is too dense to realize they are making such ass of themselves.
Thanks for the amusement. I try not to feed trolls and toxic users, so this is it. Feel free to get the last word in to feel like you "won" an argument and pat yourself on the back.
Hopefully some day you can smell your own shit on your knees.
The Secret Service are law enforcement. Protecting presidents and their families is there most visible role but their original mandate and still primary role is to protect the integrity of US currency with a particular focus on combating counterfeiting.
Yes. Scope creep and repurposing is a long tradition.
But it is also largely irrelevant in this case as the investigative training and procedures used by the currency division are largely unrelated to the bodyguarding done by the.. bodyguard division. It is like arguing that all Army Pilots and Mechanics are also specialized in close quarters combat and clearing buildings. Maybe they remember some stuff from basic training but they are on a drastically different career path.
Culturally? I doubt they are all that different and plenty of them are all about "blue lives matter". But that is why I say they are "cop-adjacent".
The Secret Service are police. They are most well known for protecting presidents and their families but their original and primary mandate is to protect the integrity of US currency. They have jurisdiction over all federal financial crimes and a particular focus on counterfeiting.
I understand that. What I meant was in comparison to local police and Sherrifs departments. I certainly don't view them the same, just as I have different expectations from FBI, DEA, etc. (None very positive, mind you..)
This is America.
If the secret service didn't use excessive force they would probably be reprimanded!
No mention that the thieves had weapons or anything.
Just start blasting?
No mention that they were unarmed either. The article in general is very light on details.
For all we know the secret service shot their own car in a very loud demonstration of "fuck off"
The car is most likely bullet proof
Meaning it’s far more expensive to repair if it gets hit
There's an entirely different calculus around the protection of a country's leadership.
Shh
Car thieves are a blessing and have to be protected at all costs.
The continued functioning of the government?
Naw lemmy tankies don't have time for that.