Could be worse, I guess. I live in a "secular" democracy that essentially collects members fees for the Catholic and Lutheran churches (and only those two!) via the federal income tax.
Knew it was DE before I saw the instance domain.
In Germany, state-recognized churches collect taxes from their members in order to finance their activities as well as wages. Everyone who is a member of an officially recognized religious group automatically gets a percentage of their monthly wage taken from their paycheck. Usually, this amounts to around 9% of income tax — with the exception of Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, where the church tax amounts to 8%.
For native Germans, church tax is often automatically collected. Many Germans are baptized at a young age and thereby become members of a particular church, which means they pay taxes to that church when they begin to earn income as an adult.
If you’re a foreigner moving to Germany, you can declare your affiliation to a church when you register at your local citizen’s office.
9%? That's absurd. Is there a way to remove yourself from this?
You can only resign from being part of the church, which many young people do once they see this on their first paycheck.
Is there a way to remove yourself from this?
Sure: There is a third box "no confession" next to "Catholic" and "Protestant" on the form. You can check that and those 9% remain with the state instead.
German secularism has a few more peculiarities. Many charitable organizations e.g. running hospitals or institutions caring for the homeless, elderly, and disabled are in fact religious (Diakonie, Johanniter, Caritas, Stadtmission, ...). This has some unfortunate effects: They often hire people of Christian faith only, meaning atheists or adherents of other religions are mostly excluded at these organizations. There have also been cases of a doctor at a Christian-run hospital denying the abortion because of their faith -- despite abortion being legal here. However, much of the money these organizations receive is in fact public money, supposedly spent on serving the public. Another wrinkle is that Religious Law is used when it comes to e.g. prosecuting rape cases involving priests etc. Somehow, this separate system of law that doesn't really seem to work particularly well is accepted by the German state.
Just want to clarify: It is 9% of the income tax, not 9% of the income. Still too high, but not as absurd as some people may think after reading this incorrectly. I know some people who thought that it is 9% of the income although they were paying church tax for years...
Honestly I didn't realize that. That does make it a bit more reasonable but it's still a lot of the income tax. But the other explanations I've read sort of make it make sense. Churches were the original social services for the needy and Germany basically coopted the model into their tax system - rather than tearing down religious hospitals or making them private.
I get it, but it's also weird!
Or better yet, religious organizations.
Taxing religious organizations gives them official representation in government affairs which is just as bad, if not worse.
Definitely not how that works. All companies are taxed and they don't get any special representation outside lobbying that they were going to do either way and churches do in fact put a lot of the money they should have payed in taxes into lobbying.
You don't think certain companies get favorable treatment via tax code and lobbying?
I think certain companies don’t pay any taxes at all.
companies don't get any special representation
Lmao
Their paying taxes is not what gets them special treatment.
No, but well-connected companies use regulatory capture to structure taxes as a burden on their competition.
Consider for a moment how churches would be taxed. Maybe they are taxed on their assets. That would disproportionately affect larger churches with valuable real estate holdings, like the Catholic and Mormon churches. Maybe the donations they receive are taxed. That disadvantages newer churches which don't have corporate investments or endowments. Tax land? Hurt cemeteries. Tax salaries? Favor Quaker meeting houses where there is no specific pastor.
Look, I don't think churches should be involved in politics. Any that donate to candidates or endorse a party should lose their tax exempt status, because they are no longer churches. But a blanket removal of all tax exemptions for religious organizations is a threat to religious freedom. It would allow the religious leaders in government to play favorites and pick winners, kind of like they do now already.
yes, freedom of religion can only exist with in perpetuity tax free landownership
hahaha
Is that what I said?
Tax code is applied by politicians. Do you really expect Christian Conservatives to fairly tax Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus at the same rates as their own churches? Freedom of Religion cannot exist when political leaders are able to tax competing religions into oblivion.
To some degree, agreed, but your original assertion is still wrong. Unless you count all the devoutly religious people in Congress, and they already have that representation.
Not taxing them hasn't kept their fingers out of the American government.
Far from it.
Hell, the current speaker is trying to convince everyone that the government was always intended to be based on religious dogma.
Please elaborate...
Like, do you think McDonald's as a corporation gets to vote?
Do you think priests and preachers don't get to vote now?
I'm guessing the way its suppose to work is tax exemption means you should apolitical like a think tank lol
Tax exemption for religious organisations.
Could be worse, I guess. I live in a "secular" democracy that essentially collects members fees for the Catholic and Lutheran churches (and only those two!) via the federal income tax.
Knew it was DE before I saw the instance domain.
9%? That's absurd. Is there a way to remove yourself from this?
You can only resign from being part of the church, which many young people do once they see this on their first paycheck.
Sure: There is a third box "no confession" next to "Catholic" and "Protestant" on the form. You can check that and those 9% remain with the state instead.
German secularism has a few more peculiarities. Many charitable organizations e.g. running hospitals or institutions caring for the homeless, elderly, and disabled are in fact religious (Diakonie, Johanniter, Caritas, Stadtmission, ...). This has some unfortunate effects: They often hire people of Christian faith only, meaning atheists or adherents of other religions are mostly excluded at these organizations. There have also been cases of a doctor at a Christian-run hospital denying the abortion because of their faith -- despite abortion being legal here. However, much of the money these organizations receive is in fact public money, supposedly spent on serving the public. Another wrinkle is that Religious Law is used when it comes to e.g. prosecuting rape cases involving priests etc. Somehow, this separate system of law that doesn't really seem to work particularly well is accepted by the German state.
Just want to clarify: It is 9% of the income tax, not 9% of the income. Still too high, but not as absurd as some people may think after reading this incorrectly. I know some people who thought that it is 9% of the income although they were paying church tax for years...
Honestly I didn't realize that. That does make it a bit more reasonable but it's still a lot of the income tax. But the other explanations I've read sort of make it make sense. Churches were the original social services for the needy and Germany basically coopted the model into their tax system - rather than tearing down religious hospitals or making them private.
I get it, but it's also weird!
Or better yet, religious organizations.
Taxing religious organizations gives them official representation in government affairs which is just as bad, if not worse.
Definitely not how that works. All companies are taxed and they don't get any special representation outside lobbying that they were going to do either way and churches do in fact put a lot of the money they should have payed in taxes into lobbying.
You don't think certain companies get favorable treatment via tax code and lobbying?
I think certain companies don’t pay any taxes at all.
Lmao
Their paying taxes is not what gets them special treatment.
No, but well-connected companies use regulatory capture to structure taxes as a burden on their competition.
Consider for a moment how churches would be taxed. Maybe they are taxed on their assets. That would disproportionately affect larger churches with valuable real estate holdings, like the Catholic and Mormon churches. Maybe the donations they receive are taxed. That disadvantages newer churches which don't have corporate investments or endowments. Tax land? Hurt cemeteries. Tax salaries? Favor Quaker meeting houses where there is no specific pastor.
Look, I don't think churches should be involved in politics. Any that donate to candidates or endorse a party should lose their tax exempt status, because they are no longer churches. But a blanket removal of all tax exemptions for religious organizations is a threat to religious freedom. It would allow the religious leaders in government to play favorites and pick winners, kind of like they do now already.
yes, freedom of religion can only exist with in perpetuity tax free landownership
hahaha
Is that what I said?
Tax code is applied by politicians. Do you really expect Christian Conservatives to fairly tax Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus at the same rates as their own churches? Freedom of Religion cannot exist when political leaders are able to tax competing religions into oblivion.
To some degree, agreed, but your original assertion is still wrong. Unless you count all the devoutly religious people in Congress, and they already have that representation.
Not taxing them hasn't kept their fingers out of the American government.
Far from it.
Hell, the current speaker is trying to convince everyone that the government was always intended to be based on religious dogma.
Please elaborate...
Like, do you think McDonald's as a corporation gets to vote?
Do you think priests and preachers don't get to vote now?
I'm guessing the way its suppose to work is tax exemption means you should apolitical like a think tank lol