Now that Israel just openly declares it is bombing and invading hospitals, the fog of war bullshit really doesn't matter anymore.
Maybe this one hospital strike was a rocket. What about all the other ones?
Yeah, so maybe you're right, maybe I did steal money from your purse, push grandma down the stairs when she got in my way, left the milk out over night, shit in Dad's shoes while high on meth, smoked crack in the alley, slapped all my cousins alphabetically, poured cocaine on the dog, but I swear, I didn't smoke crack in my bedroom and I don't like being accused of things I didn't do!
My understanding is this lie was used by Hamas to isolate Israel from Arab nations where much of the public was frankly horrified by the brutal violence Hamas had aimed specifically at civilians. So no, it wasn't just "the one relatively inconsequential thing," it is a lie that has had serious consequences.
It's also a large part of why people believe everything Hamas says (e.g. death tolls) while also refusing to believe anything Israel says.
The reason people believe Gazan death tolls is that they're found to be reliable by almost every organization working in the region. And the reason most people refuse to believe what Israel says without confirmation is because they've been caught lying on multiple occasions, many times going as far as fabricating evidence (remember the Al-Shifa calendar)?
They're "found reliable", but not actually checked. Like, nobody actually checks Hamas' numbers; they just "confirm" them.
Confirming numbers comes from actually checking them.
Pedanticism isn't a good look.
They don't, though. Check. They can't. No independent body can operate freely in Gaza, it's under Hamas control. They know that Hamas can rescind whatever meager access they have, and so they figure that humanitarian purpose is better satisfied by preserving access by not angering Hamas.
But they don't have access to strike sites, they don't have access to morgues. Islam requires the dead be buried by nightfall, so there's simply no opportunity for independent observers to actually verify body counts. They're just demographically "verified" - "oh, we know about that many people lived in the apartment block, so X is a plausible figure for deaths." But that's not confirmation.
No independent body can operate freely in Gaza, it's under Hamas control.
Kind of like no independent journalists can investigate in Gaza about Israeli-built tunnels under a hospital under IDF control, right?
This is one of the few both-sides arguments that can be legitimately made.
Never mind the fact that Palestinians haven't had an election in Gaza in almost 20 years and a number of elected officials are in Israeli jails.
Never mind the fact that Palestinians haven’t had an election in Gaza in almost 20 years
since Hamas took over
Well ofc since Hamas was elected since Hamas is the ruling party now.
I thought that would be self-evident.
Kind of like no independent journalists can investigate in Gaza about Israeli-built tunnels under a hospital under IDF control, right?
Kind of the opposite, in fact? The IDF brought in independent journalists to the tunnels, proving that they'd been right about them all along.
Kind of like no independent journalists can investigate in Gaza about Israeli-built tunnels under a hospital under IDF control, right?
Okay, so explain this: why would Israel lie about the tunnels? It makes perfect sense that Hamas would operate largely in tunnels including under vital infrastructure, tunnels are used for smuggling in other places around the world, and bringing the IDF into hospitals is a huge headache in terms of PR. So what's in it for Israel?
This is the entire reason for the 10/7 attack. Israel is normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia and this was a planned and timed move by Hamas to try to stop that.
It did not work.
Considering the fact that Israel is now bombing and invading every hospital, what difference does it make?
If this was a lie then it was only a lie by a few weeks. Israel has fulfilled every accusation that Hamas has made.
Purged by creator
The truth matters for the historical record, but it wasn't a lie like the other poster said; it was at worst a false conclusion. Instead of treating this like a reasonable mistake, though, they're cooking up conspiracy theories to assign malicious intent to what is pretty clearly just a result of the fog of war.
If it was a mistake. I'm reserving judgement until there's an actual forensic investigation and a truth-and-reconcilliation commission for Israel's crimes.
Purged by creator
People do not need excuses to accuse something of being fake news. Also, there really weren't a lot of reporters that actually reported this as an Israeli airstrike - they mostly just reported about the claims that were being made of an Israeli airstrike, but tried to stay neutral.
Though yes, some jumped to conclusions. Reasonable conclusions in my opinion, but that's bad reporting.
But if truth matters, then we shouldn't react to bad reporting with wild and speculative claims about people lying to make Israel look bad.
Now that Israel just openly declares it is bombing and invading hospitals, the fog of war bullshit really doesn't matter anymore.
Maybe this one hospital strike was a rocket. What about all the other ones?
Yeah, so maybe you're right, maybe I did steal money from your purse, push grandma down the stairs when she got in my way, left the milk out over night, shit in Dad's shoes while high on meth, smoked crack in the alley, slapped all my cousins alphabetically, poured cocaine on the dog, but I swear, I didn't smoke crack in my bedroom and I don't like being accused of things I didn't do!
My understanding is this lie was used by Hamas to isolate Israel from Arab nations where much of the public was frankly horrified by the brutal violence Hamas had aimed specifically at civilians. So no, it wasn't just "the one relatively inconsequential thing," it is a lie that has had serious consequences.
It's also a large part of why people believe everything Hamas says (e.g. death tolls) while also refusing to believe anything Israel says.
The reason people believe Gazan death tolls is that they're found to be reliable by almost every organization working in the region. And the reason most people refuse to believe what Israel says without confirmation is because they've been caught lying on multiple occasions, many times going as far as fabricating evidence (remember the Al-Shifa calendar)?
They're "found reliable", but not actually checked. Like, nobody actually checks Hamas' numbers; they just "confirm" them.
Confirming numbers comes from actually checking them.
Pedanticism isn't a good look.
They don't, though. Check. They can't. No independent body can operate freely in Gaza, it's under Hamas control. They know that Hamas can rescind whatever meager access they have, and so they figure that humanitarian purpose is better satisfied by preserving access by not angering Hamas.
But they don't have access to strike sites, they don't have access to morgues. Islam requires the dead be buried by nightfall, so there's simply no opportunity for independent observers to actually verify body counts. They're just demographically "verified" - "oh, we know about that many people lived in the apartment block, so X is a plausible figure for deaths." But that's not confirmation.
Kind of like no independent journalists can investigate in Gaza about Israeli-built tunnels under a hospital under IDF control, right?
This is one of the few both-sides arguments that can be legitimately made.
Never mind the fact that Palestinians haven't had an election in Gaza in almost 20 years and a number of elected officials are in Israeli jails.
since Hamas took over
Well ofc since Hamas was elected since Hamas is the ruling party now.
I thought that would be self-evident.
Kind of the opposite, in fact? The IDF brought in independent journalists to the tunnels, proving that they'd been right about them all along.
Okay, so explain this: why would Israel lie about the tunnels? It makes perfect sense that Hamas would operate largely in tunnels including under vital infrastructure, tunnels are used for smuggling in other places around the world, and bringing the IDF into hospitals is a huge headache in terms of PR. So what's in it for Israel?
This is the entire reason for the 10/7 attack. Israel is normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia and this was a planned and timed move by Hamas to try to stop that.
It did not work.
Considering the fact that Israel is now bombing and invading every hospital, what difference does it make?
If this was a lie then it was only a lie by a few weeks. Israel has fulfilled every accusation that Hamas has made.
Purged by creator
The truth matters for the historical record, but it wasn't a lie like the other poster said; it was at worst a false conclusion. Instead of treating this like a reasonable mistake, though, they're cooking up conspiracy theories to assign malicious intent to what is pretty clearly just a result of the fog of war.
If it was a mistake. I'm reserving judgement until there's an actual forensic investigation and a truth-and-reconcilliation commission for Israel's crimes.
Purged by creator
People do not need excuses to accuse something of being fake news. Also, there really weren't a lot of reporters that actually reported this as an Israeli airstrike - they mostly just reported about the claims that were being made of an Israeli airstrike, but tried to stay neutral.
Though yes, some jumped to conclusions. Reasonable conclusions in my opinion, but that's bad reporting.
But if truth matters, then we shouldn't react to bad reporting with wild and speculative claims about people lying to make Israel look bad.
Purged by creator
What other ones, specifically?