"They hate Israel because they hate Jews" is a strong accusation. Hating Jews usually doesn't decide foreign policy.
Are you fucking kidding? There are thousands of years of documented precedent.
Seems like most non-European nations didn't care about Jews until they stole Israel.
That would make them anti-Zionist, not anti-Semetic.
I know it's important for you people to conflate the two, though. Thankfully this generation isn't quite as stupid as the last one when it comes to your propaganda.
Guess what, when you refuse Jews their right to their ancestral land that they've never left, while not doing so with any other people, yup, that makes you an anti-semite.
No, it makes me an anti-Zionist.
You think Jews are entitled to live in Israel, and you're so brazenly biased that you try to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.
Rational people are no longer following for your narrative, and that upsets you to no end.
Since you can't seem to stay off my dick, I've decided to reply. You are an antisemite. Not in the way that everyone calls everyone that. You're out here spending your days on the Internet espousing all flavors of this shit. So I'm not going to engage in particulars here for you to ignore and try to pick apart. You contribute to the dialogue in bad faith. You are shit on my boot. Nothing. Undermensch. Got what you want? Angry Nazi Jew hates goy? You should go to therapy to deal with whatever you hate about yourself or your upbringing, or just fucking leave. Go in the woods and don't come back.
Btw "You people" .. words of a gentleman and scholar.
"Your propaganda".. mine? Whose?
I really don't like you. I bet your friends and family don't like you either. I bet you don't like you. Closet gay? Attracted to Jewish women? White guilt? Which you got buried down there. Fix yourself before you hurt someone else.
See how mad Zionists get when you call out their bullshit for what it is?
I rest my case.
So same as the other comments... You have nothing of value to offer and don't respond to subject matter. Are you a Russian troll farm employee? A Musk loving incel? Fake leftist? Which flavor of feces?
Also, I asked "here are angry generic words.. is this what you expect?"
That means your comment here is just repeating back my /s
Maybe you're actually just a fucking idiot. I suppose I give ignorance too much credit for malice
Calm down.
Okay, I'll accept your concession. I'll feel good sleeping tonight feeling like I "won" here. I don't even do that shit on the Internet. I have a pretty full and fulfilling life. This is so unimportant to me
Yet somehow, you've provided me with such a sense of satisfaction! Thank you! I was really bored before but I'm smiling right now. Because you've helped me remember how people like you function and how little credence to give you. Except when your kind shoots up schools and churches and synagogues and shit... But other than that you're feckless! Merry Christmas!
I have a pretty full and fulfilling life.
Sure you do.
No, you're finally accurate, I don't! As I've acknowledged I don't NEED to engage with you at all. It's fun. If anything I'm just enjoying the thought that you think you rage baited me and "write calmly" but deep down you hate this because I'm right. You just can't ever get to your truth because you don't believe in therapy or maybe you say that to the guys because you're actually scared of being vulnerable or worse exposing yourself. Go back to your incel cave. I'm going to enjoy my beautiful irl community of people with whom we love each other, my successful career, the warm sunny weather, my creative and intellectually stimulating hobbies. You keep on doing what you do best and contributing so much to this community!
Or not, and you're just milk toast run of the mill dickhead with no reason for it.. who knows? I enjoy this and you're irrelevant so who cares??
Sorry to let you know I write words, have ADHD, and never stfu for a living, so that's why this is verbose. Not because I'm upset. This is truly fun for me. I never met myself enjoy feeling better than others or sadism. You're like 5 golden rings all in one day! I've actually been feeling kinda cynical about the world lately. But you just reset my perspective and it's gonna be fine! Thanks for being you... It's like r/writingprompts but you're just some angry hateful loser on the Internet projecting their rage on others without anything interesting to add. Or maybe your mother fucking Teresa with your irl community. Who knows? Doesn't matter. Bc here, you're a piece of shit who should be ashamed of how they engage with strangers. On Christmas nonetheless! Surely you're an enraged Jew! Okay, now I'm bored again. ta-ta
Like the whole field of antisemitic Zionism, yes. "It's fine if Jews get to live just don't do it here".
Jeez, never thought of it framed that way. You're right. All I ever wanted was a couple of square blocks on the lower east side anyway :)
Only in europe. Anti-Semetism does not exist in the midle east.
What are you talking about? Anti-Semitism is rife in lots of the middle east. The protocols of the elders of Zion are still circulated as fact. And Malaysia isn't in the middle east?
No, Malaysia is South East Asia.
There is Anti Zionism in the middle east. No Anti Semitism :) We love our secular Jewish sisters and brothers.
So either you're a Middle Eastern or Muslim person that loves his brother in Abraham sharing personal experience, who I love for your naivete and wish everyone had that sentiment everywhere about everyone and there was world peace... Or you're completely detached from the history which is fine, but you shouldn't post disinformation on the Internet bc others will believe you and parrot it to others, as is happening here
How can a semite be an Antisemite :P
Uh... What? What country fucked with Jews outside their borders except Nazi Germany?
Are you asking seriously in good faith?
Yeah. My knowledge of Jewish history isn't the best.
Thanks for being honest and asking in good faith. So pretty much the whole history has been defined by genocides and being used as fodder for scapegoating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question .. this is a pretty controversial vein of the dialogue for you to get started. You don't have to feel one way or another but it's an example of the modern West's dynamics
Oh I know that. I was talking specifically about whether antisemitism affected foreign policy. Like, didn't Western countries just persecute Jews inside their borders while not really caring about ones outside? That's why I said "outside their borders".
Okay gotcha. I think the missing piece here is the connection between domestic and foreign policy. Forget Jews, Holocaust, Israel, genocide, any of it, and go more basic..
Domestic policy issues like immigration in a functioning country on an average normal day, are by their nature, foreign policy. If you own a store and lock the door and say we're closed, you're informing the outside world of this. If I needed a loaf of bread from you, now I have to do something else.. it doesn't matter if I find a different store, switch recipes, order in.. you've affected me. Like how in science, merely observing, is impacting any experiment, just bc you're interacting with it through the very observation itself.
So now you're a Eurasian country expelling your Jews as one does every few centuries. If I accept those Jews, that's a diplomatic message to the global community that I disagree with your policy. Think about Poland accepting Ukrainians or the US sending bombs. That's a message on our stance on Russian genocide.
But if you treat Israel different to other states in your foreign policy, thats antisemitic.
So the fact that we treat Israel differently than we treat Russia, which we treat differently than Italy, which we treat differently than Peru, is all antisemitism?
Yes.
Btw: why would you treat Russia different to Italy? If Italy commits human rights violation to the same degree as Russia and Israel do, I would expect you to condemn Italy and Peru the same way.
My point was we treat every country differently
No its not.
He might be joking, because that's how Zionists want it to be.
Its plain and simple antisemitic in this instance. They didn't do this against Russia – who treats the Ukrainians similarly, but without even the slightest reason. They only do it against Israel.
If you use this tool against all human rights violators, I wouldn't complain. But if you only use it against Jews/Israel? Seems to be personally motivated and not for the cause.
If Israel was treated equivalently to Russia they would've been under heavy sanctions from pretty much everybody by now, given that just in the first 2 weeks of bombing they murdered several Buchas worth (plus a couple of Mariupols) of civilians.
If there is one thing this situation made clear to most of the whole World when put side by side with the Russian invasion and the reaction to it, is the profound hypocrisy and even racist-genocide endorsing spirit of several self-proclaimed freedom-loving nations, especially the US, Germany and the UK.
The difference between Russia and Israel is, that Russia decided to attack Ukraine and Israel was attacked and is defending itself against Hamas. Nevertheless, even Germany and France are urging to stop the bombing of civilians.
BULLSHIT!
Only a racists who thinks "they're all the same" would justify killing Palestinians on the actions of Hamas.
Israel is an Occupying Power facing an Insurgence, who have chosen to conduct their anti-Insurgence action using methods with massive rates of collateral deaths and even have operating procedures in place with zero consideration for civilian lives, as clearly demonstrated when they just shot and killed 3 Israelis who were Hamas hostages and escaped and were holding a white flag.
That pro-genocide propaganda technique of yours of "forgetting" all about everything that happenned longer than 3 months ago and profoundly racist trope of trying to justify tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths - over 40% of which children - on 700 Israeli deaths at the hands of Hamas, has long run its course and only morons fall for that crap.
As for Germany, after thousands of Palestinian children had been killed, well past the point when Israeli actions were still justifiable, Scholz was still very explicitly stating Germany's "unwavering support of Israel". Fascism might have been kicked out of Germany but it's still strong in German hearts: they might have added the Jewish people to their lists of "those like us" but their "never again" turns out to not be about stopping racist ultranationalist fascists from murdering with impunity "those who are not like us", only about Germany not treating the Jewish People as "one of us". That bullshit less-than-finger-wagging talk you mention means nothing for a nation that still proclaims its unavering support for a Fascist country committing genocide well beyond the point were there might still have been doubts.
We in Europe better be wary of Germany's remilitarization now that it is crystal clear that they still have no problem with genocidal racist and ultranationalist Fascism, as long as the etnicity of the Fascists is the right one.
Your rant is completely factless. Germany has called for a ceasefire numerous times. At the same time its urging to help civilians and open borders for humanitarian aid. Its calling for a two-state solution, where Palestinians have their own state.
The statement of 'unwavering support of Israel' regards to the existence or Israel, not everything Israel does. Because a lot of states and organizations want Israel to stop existing - for example Hamas.
You're so right!
There is nothing more natural that the leader of a nation which abhors Nazism to loudly restate his unwavering support for a nation governed by an ultra-nationalist, racist, far-right cohalition, the very same day the UN announced they had already killed 4000 children in the ghetto they created on occupied land, populated by a different etnicity, who the leaders of said nation describe as "human animals"!!!
I mean, which leader that trully embodied a humanist and anti-fascist understanding of "Never again" would have as prime concern anything else but the right to exist of a state with such an elected government which according to the UN was killing thousands of children of an etnicity they deem "human animals" in a ghetto of their own creation in such a callous way???!
It's only natural Sholz would aboved all worry about Israel's right to exist in such a situation: there trully was nothing else more important for a humanist anti-Fascist to want to loudly proclaim than that at the time!!!
/s
Israel funded Hamas. They went after Gaza, not Hamas. Gaza has been unbelievably unyielding during this nearly century long struggle; unlike the occupied West Bank.
At some point you have to reliaze your bullcrap has been sniffed out.
You would make a good point if it was even remotely true.
They didn’t do this against Russia – who treats the Ukrainians similarly
I mean, Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years.
If anything, comparing Israel to Russia should be reason to chastise the states that still do business with Israel.
But you don't see that, do you? It's just 'antisemitism'?
P.S. Good job doing your part to make that word even more meaningless.
I just call it out. Its antisemitism plain and simple.
And the only reason why Russia hasn't succeeded is the far superior air defense of Ukraine compared to Hamas (who itself doesnt care about Palestinians and therefore has almost no air defense at all) and the more densely populated area.
The antisemitism card isn't effective anymore, bud. Cried wolf way too many times.
So all antisemitism gets a pass now?
When someone criticizes Israel and not all jews, yes.
And thats not what Malaysia does. Also: if you critize Israel because its a state of jews.
Victim blaming is super classy.
who itself doesnt care about Palestinians and therefore has almost no air defense at all
What the shit? Hamas doesn't have air defense because of the blockade, and because Israel would blast it to oblivion in a day.
you'd think with the millions they receive in aid they'd build one to protect civilians. But keep on defending terrorism.
Do you understand what a blockade is?
Do you understand what having a neighbour wishing for nothing else but your death and launching rockets at you every single day is? Do you condemn this as harshly as you pity the poor Gazans? Didn't think so.
The blockade is, in and of itself, a declaration of war. Getting rockets launched at them is a very natural outcome of that action.
Justifying deliberate targeting of civilians because they're Jewish. Cool.
When you elect a party that vows to destroy its neighbouring country, the neighbouring country generally won't like it.
I think the people who downvoted you don't actually understand that this is really Malaysia being antisemitic. This is a country (my country, mind you) that has a term for the Jewish Agenda (Agenda Yahudi), and thought that the vaccines were haram because the Jews were purposely putting pork serum into it.
I'm against Israel as well, but you'd think people would have some nuance when discussing topics like these.
There is a reason the BDS movement is banned in many states: it works. Good on Malaysia for doing this.
To be clear, Malaysia is a horror show when it comes to minority rights and only doing this because they hate Israel because they hate Jews. If Malaysia could look past their hatred of Jews they'd be able to see the commonalities they have with the Jewish-supremacist state of Israel.
Not all of your enemy's enemies are your friends.
"They hate Israel because they hate Jews" is a strong accusation. Hating Jews usually doesn't decide foreign policy.
Are you fucking kidding? There are thousands of years of documented precedent.
Seems like most non-European nations didn't care about Jews until they stole Israel.
That would make them anti-Zionist, not anti-Semetic.
I know it's important for you people to conflate the two, though. Thankfully this generation isn't quite as stupid as the last one when it comes to your propaganda.
Guess what, when you refuse Jews their right to their ancestral land that they've never left, while not doing so with any other people, yup, that makes you an anti-semite.
No, it makes me an anti-Zionist.
You think Jews are entitled to live in Israel, and you're so brazenly biased that you try to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.
Rational people are no longer following for your narrative, and that upsets you to no end.
Since you can't seem to stay off my dick, I've decided to reply. You are an antisemite. Not in the way that everyone calls everyone that. You're out here spending your days on the Internet espousing all flavors of this shit. So I'm not going to engage in particulars here for you to ignore and try to pick apart. You contribute to the dialogue in bad faith. You are shit on my boot. Nothing. Undermensch. Got what you want? Angry Nazi Jew hates goy? You should go to therapy to deal with whatever you hate about yourself or your upbringing, or just fucking leave. Go in the woods and don't come back.
Btw "You people" .. words of a gentleman and scholar.
"Your propaganda".. mine? Whose?
I really don't like you. I bet your friends and family don't like you either. I bet you don't like you. Closet gay? Attracted to Jewish women? White guilt? Which you got buried down there. Fix yourself before you hurt someone else.
See how mad Zionists get when you call out their bullshit for what it is?
I rest my case.
So same as the other comments... You have nothing of value to offer and don't respond to subject matter. Are you a Russian troll farm employee? A Musk loving incel? Fake leftist? Which flavor of feces?
Also, I asked "here are angry generic words.. is this what you expect?" That means your comment here is just repeating back my /s Maybe you're actually just a fucking idiot. I suppose I give ignorance too much credit for malice
Calm down.
Okay, I'll accept your concession. I'll feel good sleeping tonight feeling like I "won" here. I don't even do that shit on the Internet. I have a pretty full and fulfilling life. This is so unimportant to me Yet somehow, you've provided me with such a sense of satisfaction! Thank you! I was really bored before but I'm smiling right now. Because you've helped me remember how people like you function and how little credence to give you. Except when your kind shoots up schools and churches and synagogues and shit... But other than that you're feckless! Merry Christmas!
Sure you do.
No, you're finally accurate, I don't! As I've acknowledged I don't NEED to engage with you at all. It's fun. If anything I'm just enjoying the thought that you think you rage baited me and "write calmly" but deep down you hate this because I'm right. You just can't ever get to your truth because you don't believe in therapy or maybe you say that to the guys because you're actually scared of being vulnerable or worse exposing yourself. Go back to your incel cave. I'm going to enjoy my beautiful irl community of people with whom we love each other, my successful career, the warm sunny weather, my creative and intellectually stimulating hobbies. You keep on doing what you do best and contributing so much to this community!
Or not, and you're just milk toast run of the mill dickhead with no reason for it.. who knows? I enjoy this and you're irrelevant so who cares??
Sorry to let you know I write words, have ADHD, and never stfu for a living, so that's why this is verbose. Not because I'm upset. This is truly fun for me. I never met myself enjoy feeling better than others or sadism. You're like 5 golden rings all in one day! I've actually been feeling kinda cynical about the world lately. But you just reset my perspective and it's gonna be fine! Thanks for being you... It's like r/writingprompts but you're just some angry hateful loser on the Internet projecting their rage on others without anything interesting to add. Or maybe your mother fucking Teresa with your irl community. Who knows? Doesn't matter. Bc here, you're a piece of shit who should be ashamed of how they engage with strangers. On Christmas nonetheless! Surely you're an enraged Jew! Okay, now I'm bored again. ta-ta
Alright well, you do you.
Like the whole field of antisemitic Zionism, yes. "It's fine if Jews get to live just don't do it here".
Jeez, never thought of it framed that way. You're right. All I ever wanted was a couple of square blocks on the lower east side anyway :)
Only in europe. Anti-Semetism does not exist in the midle east.
What are you talking about? Anti-Semitism is rife in lots of the middle east. The protocols of the elders of Zion are still circulated as fact. And Malaysia isn't in the middle east?
No, Malaysia is South East Asia.
There is Anti Zionism in the middle east. No Anti Semitism :) We love our secular Jewish sisters and brothers.
So either you're a Middle Eastern or Muslim person that loves his brother in Abraham sharing personal experience, who I love for your naivete and wish everyone had that sentiment everywhere about everyone and there was world peace... Or you're completely detached from the history which is fine, but you shouldn't post disinformation on the Internet bc others will believe you and parrot it to others, as is happening here
How can a semite be an Antisemite :P
Uh... What? What country fucked with Jews outside their borders except Nazi Germany?
Are you asking seriously in good faith?
Yeah. My knowledge of Jewish history isn't the best.
Thanks for being honest and asking in good faith. So pretty much the whole history has been defined by genocides and being used as fodder for scapegoating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question .. this is a pretty controversial vein of the dialogue for you to get started. You don't have to feel one way or another but it's an example of the modern West's dynamics
Oh I know that. I was talking specifically about whether antisemitism affected foreign policy. Like, didn't Western countries just persecute Jews inside their borders while not really caring about ones outside? That's why I said "outside their borders".
Okay gotcha. I think the missing piece here is the connection between domestic and foreign policy. Forget Jews, Holocaust, Israel, genocide, any of it, and go more basic..
Domestic policy issues like immigration in a functioning country on an average normal day, are by their nature, foreign policy. If you own a store and lock the door and say we're closed, you're informing the outside world of this. If I needed a loaf of bread from you, now I have to do something else.. it doesn't matter if I find a different store, switch recipes, order in.. you've affected me. Like how in science, merely observing, is impacting any experiment, just bc you're interacting with it through the very observation itself.
So now you're a Eurasian country expelling your Jews as one does every few centuries. If I accept those Jews, that's a diplomatic message to the global community that I disagree with your policy. Think about Poland accepting Ukrainians or the US sending bombs. That's a message on our stance on Russian genocide.
Does that help or make it more confusing?? 😬
But if you treat Israel different to other states in your foreign policy, thats antisemitic.
So the fact that we treat Israel differently than we treat Russia, which we treat differently than Italy, which we treat differently than Peru, is all antisemitism?
Yes.
Btw: why would you treat Russia different to Italy? If Italy commits human rights violation to the same degree as Russia and Israel do, I would expect you to condemn Italy and Peru the same way.
My point was we treat every country differently
No its not.
He might be joking, because that's how Zionists want it to be.
BDS?
Nvm I just looked it up: https://bdsmovement.net/what-is-bds
Boycott. Divest. Sanctions.
Its plain and simple antisemitic in this instance. They didn't do this against Russia – who treats the Ukrainians similarly, but without even the slightest reason. They only do it against Israel.
If you use this tool against all human rights violators, I wouldn't complain. But if you only use it against Jews/Israel? Seems to be personally motivated and not for the cause.
If Israel was treated equivalently to Russia they would've been under heavy sanctions from pretty much everybody by now, given that just in the first 2 weeks of bombing they murdered several Buchas worth (plus a couple of Mariupols) of civilians.
If there is one thing this situation made clear to most of the whole World when put side by side with the Russian invasion and the reaction to it, is the profound hypocrisy and even racist-genocide endorsing spirit of several self-proclaimed freedom-loving nations, especially the US, Germany and the UK.
The difference between Russia and Israel is, that Russia decided to attack Ukraine and Israel was attacked and is defending itself against Hamas. Nevertheless, even Germany and France are urging to stop the bombing of civilians.
BULLSHIT!
Only a racists who thinks "they're all the same" would justify killing Palestinians on the actions of Hamas.
Israel is an Occupying Power facing an Insurgence, who have chosen to conduct their anti-Insurgence action using methods with massive rates of collateral deaths and even have operating procedures in place with zero consideration for civilian lives, as clearly demonstrated when they just shot and killed 3 Israelis who were Hamas hostages and escaped and were holding a white flag.
That pro-genocide propaganda technique of yours of "forgetting" all about everything that happenned longer than 3 months ago and profoundly racist trope of trying to justify tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths - over 40% of which children - on 700 Israeli deaths at the hands of Hamas, has long run its course and only morons fall for that crap.
As for Germany, after thousands of Palestinian children had been killed, well past the point when Israeli actions were still justifiable, Scholz was still very explicitly stating Germany's "unwavering support of Israel". Fascism might have been kicked out of Germany but it's still strong in German hearts: they might have added the Jewish people to their lists of "those like us" but their "never again" turns out to not be about stopping racist ultranationalist fascists from murdering with impunity "those who are not like us", only about Germany not treating the Jewish People as "one of us". That bullshit less-than-finger-wagging talk you mention means nothing for a nation that still proclaims its unavering support for a Fascist country committing genocide well beyond the point were there might still have been doubts.
We in Europe better be wary of Germany's remilitarization now that it is crystal clear that they still have no problem with genocidal racist and ultranationalist Fascism, as long as the etnicity of the Fascists is the right one.
Your rant is completely factless. Germany has called for a ceasefire numerous times. At the same time its urging to help civilians and open borders for humanitarian aid. Its calling for a two-state solution, where Palestinians have their own state.
The statement of 'unwavering support of Israel' regards to the existence or Israel, not everything Israel does. Because a lot of states and organizations want Israel to stop existing - for example Hamas.
You're so right!
There is nothing more natural that the leader of a nation which abhors Nazism to loudly restate his unwavering support for a nation governed by an ultra-nationalist, racist, far-right cohalition, the very same day the UN announced they had already killed 4000 children in the ghetto they created on occupied land, populated by a different etnicity, who the leaders of said nation describe as "human animals"!!!
I mean, which leader that trully embodied a humanist and anti-fascist understanding of "Never again" would have as prime concern anything else but the right to exist of a state with such an elected government which according to the UN was killing thousands of children of an etnicity they deem "human animals" in a ghetto of their own creation in such a callous way???!
It's only natural Sholz would aboved all worry about Israel's right to exist in such a situation: there trully was nothing else more important for a humanist anti-Fascist to want to loudly proclaim than that at the time!!!
/s
Israel funded Hamas. They went after Gaza, not Hamas. Gaza has been unbelievably unyielding during this nearly century long struggle; unlike the occupied West Bank.
At some point you have to reliaze your bullcrap has been sniffed out.
You would make a good point if it was even remotely true.
I mean, Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years.
If anything, comparing Israel to Russia should be reason to chastise the states that still do business with Israel.
But you don't see that, do you? It's just 'antisemitism'?
P.S. Good job doing your part to make that word even more meaningless.
I just call it out. Its antisemitism plain and simple.
And the only reason why Russia hasn't succeeded is the far superior air defense of Ukraine compared to Hamas (who itself doesnt care about Palestinians and therefore has almost no air defense at all) and the more densely populated area.
The antisemitism card isn't effective anymore, bud. Cried wolf way too many times.
So all antisemitism gets a pass now?
When someone criticizes Israel and not all jews, yes.
And thats not what Malaysia does. Also: if you critize Israel because its a state of jews.
Victim blaming is super classy.
What the shit? Hamas doesn't have air defense because of the blockade, and because Israel would blast it to oblivion in a day.
you'd think with the millions they receive in aid they'd build one to protect civilians. But keep on defending terrorism.
Do you understand what a blockade is?
Do you understand what having a neighbour wishing for nothing else but your death and launching rockets at you every single day is? Do you condemn this as harshly as you pity the poor Gazans? Didn't think so.
The blockade is, in and of itself, a declaration of war. Getting rockets launched at them is a very natural outcome of that action.
Justifying deliberate targeting of civilians because they're Jewish. Cool.
When you elect a party that vows to destroy its neighbouring country, the neighbouring country generally won't like it.
I think the people who downvoted you don't actually understand that this is really Malaysia being antisemitic. This is a country (my country, mind you) that has a term for the Jewish Agenda (Agenda Yahudi), and thought that the vaccines were haram because the Jews were purposely putting pork serum into it.
I'm against Israel as well, but you'd think people would have some nuance when discussing topics like these.