I don't understand how anyone can fire upon someone holding a white flag, they should be tried and sentenced.
Because Israelis are raised from birth to view everyone in Gaza as sub-human scum who would kill them at first opportunity if given one. The far right government propaganda has done a number on the population.
Yeah: extreme rabid violent racism.
It's why I started calling them Nazis: because of all the variants of Fascism, at the moment with all that we're seeing in Gaza it's Nazism that's the one closest what is being done by Israel.
If you think about it, systematic state-level extreme racism is only natural for an etnostate created during WWII and heavilly reliant on the way of thinking that lead to WWII - that of viewing people not as individual humans whose worth or unworth is defined by their actions and the actions they support but rather as born member of etnicities, with everybody of an etnicity judged as a group to be worthy or unworthy.
So reliant was Israel on etnic identitarianism for its identity and reason to be that when they reached the same level of power and confidence they behave just like all other such nations when they had such power, including the very one which is the Evil Opressor in Israel's Founding Story: Nazi Germany.
I think that's fair.
Is the presumption that any confusion from labelling them as such is actually not anywhere near the value of like pointing out the alleged truthfulness which comes from the analogy made by labelling people in Israel as such?
Sorry for the direct language I have ASD, I'm just trying to understand what people mean usually but it's been told to me that it is rude or offensive so I apologize if that is the case.
Well, notice how I never say "Israelis", but rather "Israel", "authorities of Israel", "the leaders of Israel" or the "government of Israel" (and not just in this post but more broadly).
That's because it would indeed be massivelly unfair to label all Israelis on the actions of the state of Israel: even if the country is supposedly a Democracy and even if it was a perfect Democracy (and this latter it definitelly isn't) we can at most claim that most Isrealis support the actions of their government and hence those that do can be judged on that support, never that Israelis in general can be judged on that. One can only pass judgment on individual people (Israelis or otherwise) based on what those individues support and how they act.
So whilst criticising the actions of the nation of Israel, executed on the orders of the elected government of Israel, which was supposedly elected and represents a majority of Israelis, I'm trying hard to not label all Israelis as a group because it would be unfair to the many Israelis that don't support this shit and, as you rightly point out, it would be quite the hypocrisy for me to complain about others treating people as part of groups and then go and myself do just that.
PS: I have no problem with direct language and in fact vastly prefer it like that, mostly because my core adult growth years were mostly lived in The Netherlands and the Dutch tend to culturally be quite direct. That said, thank you for considering that the person on the other side might feel that direct language is unpleasant.
Ah yes very fair. I did not do a close reading and missed that, I did not notice or see how careful you were with your language, your explanation is much appreciated!
Do you give any credit to Hamas for holding their families as human shields or for decades of suicide bombings and martyrdom?
Weird that Israel has an international coalition of western powers and respected countries behind it, and the coalition behind Palestine is as follows:
Algeria
Bangladesh
Boliva
Brazil
Columbia
Cuba
Egypt
Hondura
Iran
Iraq
Jordan
Malaysia
Namibia
North Korea
Pakistan
Qatar
Syria
Turkey
Tunisia
Venezuela
Hamas also has a number of non-state affiliates that support it including:
Islamic Jihad
Mujahedeen
Houthis
Hezbollah
Martyr's Brigade
Really, these are the friends of your friends? You sure you didn't get tricked? I mean, here you are taking an absolutely ridiculous position so you can stand up for suicide bombers and jihadists.
Sort of seems like it's more about the fact that Israel desires to be a democracy but is surrounded by Islamic fundamentalists who want to subjugate people under authoritarian theocracies and ancient superstition with zero possibility of granting lasting human rights for tens of millions of people.
The world is not going to miss Hamas after its gone, least of all the human shields Hamas forces to stay behind and be bombed whenever Israel warns people that they are striking a nearby military target.
Oh, the irony of claiming Palestinians are dying because Hamas uses them as human shields under a video were an IDF soldier straight of murders a Palestinian with a white flag.
That's the very definition of self-disproven bullshit.
Also one wonders how exactly Hamas' use of Palestinians as human shields would explain members of the Israeli state calling Palestinians (not Hamas, Palestinians) "human animals" and "violent", the kind of talk which is neatly and easilly explained by members of the Israeli government being rabid racists and something which is even consistent with every single thing they've ever said about Palestinians as well as their actions - lots of illogical and falacious argumentative contortions are required to force the "human shields" theory to explain all sorts of statements and actions by the Israeli authorities but the "rabid racist" theory just straight up fits like a glove (Occan's Razor easilly applies here).
Further, you provide a wonderful example of the rabid racism I mention, by immediatelly going on and on about Hamas to justify killing Palestinians, as if all Palestinians are the same and hence all Hamas and deserving of the same fate.
C'mon, just admit your major hard-on from seeing the "lesser races" being "put in their place" and stop the hypocrite instantly self-disproven bullshit rant. At least you would be deserving of a little bit of respect for your honesty.
Nah, I'm not impressed by the unscripted remarks of a few extremist members of the Israeli government, most especially when that rhetoric does not match the facts on the ground.
This war is about protecting Israel from an existential threat. Israel is deserving of that protection because it is a democracy. It's really as simple as that. The Palestinian people have had 100 years to stop deploying terrorism as a method of achieving political ends and they have utterly failed. After October 7, enough is enough.
I never once said anything about any civilians deserving this fate. However, it is not Israel that put them there. It is Hamas. Period.
of a few extremist members of the Israeli government,
Including the ones in charge of the security forces...
Wow, that's very nice. It still doesn't match the activity or facts on the ground.
If the ground activity match the rhetoric of the three or four people you are talking about, it would look like this:
There would be direct military strikes on roads, power infrastructure, and water infrastructure without any pretext of tunnels or Hamas fighters being present;
There would be no humanitarian aid corridors;
There would not be phone call, text message, leaflet, and roof knock warnings before every bombing;
Every day there would be dozens or hundreds of videos of soldiers with rifles or tanks with machine guns opening fire on large groups of civilians;
The civilian death toll would be way, way higher than 1% of the population (1% of Gaza, 0.4% of all Palestinians) after four months;
The numbers of daily casualties would be going up and up instead of trending downward as they have been week after week.
Well they bombed the power and water facilities. They bombed the humanitarian evacuation routes and safe zones. They don't do any warnings during high tempo mission periods, and they may warn as little as one person and give them 5 minutes to evacuate multiple apartment buildings. At that point it's pro forma at best and torture at worst.
You're literally commenting on a thread where they shot at civilians. They wouldn't in fact shoot every civilian though because they do still need to be able to shoot at Hamas and soldiers can't carry an infinite amount of ammunition. Furthermore, they're instigating a famine. So there's no need to shoot them.
And your last two points are just restatements.
When you can't refute facts you just make things up or spout generalizations as universal facts?
When did they bomb power and water facilities? What facility? What date? What was the explanation? What was the known intelligence? You can find it for just about any specific events you want to cite. Unless of course you're just repeating bullshit generalizations that you heard somewhere.
Who this sole individual that received a warning and given five minutes to evacuate multiple buildings? In my understanding the warnings are a model of effectiveness used by other militaries operating in urban environments all over the world. There are records of Hamas receiving warnings and then forcing every resident nearby up to the rooftop of the building to die for the cause.
Instigating a famine? By what, opening humanitarian corridors in the first week of the war and continuing them virtually without interruption every day since? How many people have died of starvation so far, do you have any figures?
The ongoing violence after October 7 further exacerbates the crisis. The Applied Research Institute in Jerusalem estimated that of 581 key water and sanitation facilities, 37 were destroyed and 226 had suspected damage by November 14. Daily bombardments restrict civilians’ ability to collect water, render farming impossible, endanger staff operating water plants, and limit circulation of water tankers.
Between 8 December 2023 and 7 February 2024, the entire population in the Gaza Strip (about 2.2 million people) is classified in IPC Phase 3 or above (Crisis or worse). This is the highest share of people facing high levels of acute food insecurity that the IPC initiative has ever classified for any given area or country. Among these, about 50 percent of the population (1.17 million people) is in Emergency (IPC Phase 4) and at least one in four households (more than half a million people) is facing catastrophic conditions (IPC Phase 5,
Catastrophe). These are characterized by households experiencing an extreme lack of food, starvation, and exhaustion of coping capacities.
The IDF is severely restricting the flow of aid by keeping border crossings closed. The evidence is clear. On this track Israel will commit genocide by starvation.
They're just going to say it was justified to kill all these people because Hamas fighters are in the vicinity. That person you are replying to doesn't seem to understand that the presence of terrorists around people doesn't excuse killing those people under any circumstance.
They will shift the blame away to Hamas. It's like if you and your whole family were getting murdered by someone, then they yell, "Look at whst you made me do!" as they stab your wife.
Yeah it's not my first round with this guy. But if nobody pushes back his narrative stands.
Yeah, because it's absolutelly normal everywhere in the world for government ministers to deem a whole etnicity "human animals" and suggest nuking a neighbouring enclave and not be kicked out of that government before the day is over.
Also the idea that a country with fighter jets, tanks and even nukes is under extential threat from a bunch of murders from with homemade rockets from a neighbouring country whose land they've been stealing for over half a century, would already be unbelieveable in the story of a Fantasy book, but trying to pass that as reality is really taking the piss out of everybody else.
Go pull the other one.
It seems like you don't know enough about this conflict to really have an opinion.
The existential threat would be the organized and internationally funded terrorist organization operating with impunity within Israel's borders under the ideology of Islamic Jihad.
The terrorists here are also supported by Iran.
Whatever hope Palestine may have had for a Tuesday solution ended on October 7 when when Hamas sold out its people and its country in order to do 1,200 murders.
Oh man, doubling down on fantasy now with the added "YoU KNoZ noTHingZ WHiLe I KNoZ aLL" style of "argument".
What perfect example of the wishfull thinking and self-delusion of rabid racism overriding all traces of even the simplest logic.
You're really working hard at proving the point of the guy I originally answered to in this string of comments, as well as my own.
Hey, maybe try refuting any of my arguments instead of a bunch of hyperbole and nonsense.
Being the same line of argument as your previous post only reframed and with a falacy of guilt by association thrown in, the argument was already refuted in my last post.
I mean, I suppose I could point out that this last post of yours relies on the idea that Muslims are all the same hence Israel is justified in attacking Palestinians because ... Iran.
But that would just be repeating myself, again and pointing out, again the racist "logic" used to tie all those actors together as "guilty as one" and hence "any of them can be targetted because the actions of any other make Israel be 'existentially threathened'".
I suppose I could also point out that "the country is both strong (has nukes and the support of the greatest military power of the world) and weak (is "existencially threatened") at the same time" is a very traditional Fascist cliché used to excuse aggression.
You're not exactly dispelling the whole a-lot-like-the-Nazis impression of Israel.
The existential threat is the ideology of every country surrounded Israel, one of which is actively trying to develop its own nuclear weapons and which has sworn it will use them against Israel if it does.
That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing intelligent or that you didn't pull out of your ass.
You mean the organization that Israel influenced the creation of through decades of mistreatment and mishandling of the situation? The same one Israel is on record saying it's a good thing as it allows Israel to treat Palestine as a hostile state? Basically exactly what they're doing now, killing anyone and everyone and just shrugging and saying "because hamas"?
"Israel is on record"? It's a country. A democracy at that, inherently made up of conflicting points of view and coalitions.
1% of the population dead = "killing anyone and everyone."
You sound hysterical and emotional.
Fine, Israel's leader/government, as elected by its population, is on record. Does that make it better?
1% of the population is a lot of people. That's tens of thousands of lives cut short. Kids who'll never grow up, families torn apart, etc. Should that not elicit emotion? There's plenty of videos of children and unarmed people trying to surrender or otherwise being shot. Seems like anyone and everyone to me.
Fun fact! Hysteria was originally thought to be a condition that only applied to women, hence the Greek root "hyster" for womb, as if that were the source of irrational emotion.
Wow, appreciate the resources. Commenting to view this later...
Thanks. I also recommend the books Ilan Pappe has done if you want a more academic approach. A lot of this is independent verification of his work that I've found.
Hmm weird the Israeli who I knew wasn't like that. Sorry to interrupt your broad generalizations
Edit: downvoters mad that I know Israelis who aren't hateful? That actually surprises you? Think I'm lying? People are fucking weird.
I agree that generalizations don't make sense. But do you mean they weren't raised to view Gazans as subhuman or that they don't look down on Gazans as a grown-up?
Both
Good to know that, I put a lot of faith in Israelis who rise against their own government.
Well I'm not saying their parents are opposed to their government entirely, but they absolutely don't consider anyone "subhuman". I haven't spoken to them in years so I don't know their take on what's happening now, but I'd be willing to bet they would at least admit it's vastly disproportionate to the Hamas actions
Do let us know if you talk to them. Always nice to hear a different perspective and an example that breaks the stereotype.
Yeah. It's unlikely -- it's an ex-girlfriend and her family.
That's anecdotal evidence. Even accepting it as true, which I do, it does not dispute anything I said about the actual, verifiable, systemic brainwashing going on in Israel re: Palestine.
I believe you, but that is separate from what I'm saying. For example, I was brainwashed to think America is the best country on Earth. If it worked, it was temporary as I didn't believe that by age 20, and I'm far from alone. So I'm just saying that just because there is brainwashing going on there, doesn't mean "Israelis think Palestinians are sub-human".
I'm a Palestinian and I want to thank you for this video. I always wondered what would make indoctrinated Zionists see the wrongs of their actions. This guy found a formula that works: go there and talk to them.
That's a very good point, I'm sure most Israelis are lovely wonderful people despite the government and atrocities being committed. I bet most Palestinians are equally wonderful. Maybe we should be against indiscriminately killing them?
If you see that person as an insect, a pest, not a person, it would be like swatting a mosquito. We are witnessing genocide.
I agree. Hamas is trying to eradicate the Palestinians by using them as human shields to gain sympathy for its cause. They call it martyrdom and they are proud as hell to have their families die as "true Palestinians" but let's start calling it what it is.
Wtf are you talking about? This guy was trying to get his mother and brother out and evacuated and then was shot holding a white flag. Please point out the Hamas in the video using anyone as a human shield.
It's this thinking that causes this Nazi shit to happen.
Nah the Nazi shit was a massive and organized campaign of extermination. It was planned and intentional.
It's a stupid comparison. This is one bad shooting in a war zone. Along with a few others, doesn't make it anything like the Nazis.
Hamas's human shield strategy, however, is an organized campaign of extermination, planned and intentional.
I'm also not talking about the guy in the video. Seems like he was murdered, and by a soldier, which makes it a war crime. One war crime, or a dozen war crimes, or a hundred, does not change the cassus belli or the lawful nature of the larger war itself.
No different than 1 or 12 or 100 guys selling drugs on a street corner would make anyone standing on the street corner a drug dealer; it doesn't.
It does when the person who owns the street corner says that this street corner is for drug dealers. Israel has said out loud they want everything in Palestine, that the Palestinians are a problem and it would be easier if they reduced them from millions to a couple thousand, that they're animals, etc. It's all genocidal language. You don't have to guess.
Not to mention Israel is using that same exact logic to ethnically cleanse Gaza, by pretending that every Palestinian is Hamas (despite greater than 50% deaths being women and children).
And it's not one bad shooting, or even a couple hundred war crimes. It's countless, or maybe one huge war crime. They're targeting all civilian infrastructure and have been since it's started, and justify it by saying Hamas is using all of it. Plus there's what's been happening in the West Bank forever. Millions of Gazans have been displaced already with no food or water and only the clothed and supplies they can carry. Journalists are getting shot every day.
Hamas is not doing some organized campaign of extermination. You just have to look at the numbers to see that. Hamas is a religious terrorist group that's arisen as a symptom of the need for armed resistance because Palestine has been getting screwed and lost all their nearby allies who could help after the Oslo Accords, and strengthened by Israel because they needed an enemy scapegoat to justify taking everything and denying a Palestinian state. They're a ragtag group shooting unguided improvised rockets over that fall on their own houses some of the time and fizzle and do nothing most of the rest of the time. If you want to look at organized extermination, look at the block by block bombing and displacement done by the IDF. Look at the side with the military vs the side with civilians trying to smuggle guns and hide in tunnels.
It's the same as the Native American raids, slave revolts, or the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Hundreds of people are dying every week. There's no food, water, or power. Israel is an apartheid regime. They bomb hospitals, refugee camps, and humanitarian corridors "for ecsape".
Never again, means never again. Not just never again for white people.
If there is a tunnel under the building, they aren't targeting the building, they are targeting the tunnel. The building has to be razed either way. If the occupants and neighbors are all warned to leave, that's good enough by any standard of moral warfare.
It's a shame that Hamas built them under their people's homes and under vital infrastructure. It stuns me that rather than being violently overthrown by an angry mob of their countrymen, Hamas is extremely popular. I guess if all the suicide bombings and rocket attacks on innocent people didn't turn the Palestinian public against Hamas, why would October 7 be any different? Personally if some group asked me to ignore an evacuation order and allow myself to be blown up in order to die as a hero, I'd tell them they were absolutely insane and I would leave. Of course Hamas, insane terrorists that they are, would likely not allow me to leave, because to them there is actually nothing better than seeing Palestinians die by Israeli weapons.
No it's because the people who live there know what happens when they leave: they won't be able to come back. Palestinians are still trying to get the right return for the 700,000 that were kicked out of their homes during the nakba.The people there have living memory of these horrible events. Same thing happened with the Native Americans and the Trail of Tears. It's one of the stages of ethnic cleansing. Now over a million Palestinians are displaced without food or water or shelter and they're sick been a sick and an Egypt not letting them in.
And for some reason you blame Hamas rather than the people doing the actual bombing, which boggles the mind. Why don't you blame the people blockading the Palestinians for decades? The one restricting their calories, disturbing their sleep with drones, taking their homes in the West Bank, arresting them without trial or charge, cutting off their electricity or trash, preventing them from accessing water or oil, restricting the roads they can drive out cost systems they can use, telling them to go one way then bombing those same escape routes? How is all that not the fault of the Israel, the ones actually doing those actions? The ones motivating the armed struggle through continual oppression, apartheid, and war crimes?
Delusional. They are using human shields right now and it has caused tens of thousands of needless deaths. That's what they wanted though.
Delusional with sources. Got it. You don't need to make things up about Hamas for people not to like them. They have done atrocities such as terrorism, certainly. Doesn't change the fact that all Palestinian people deserve emancipation.
They mean proximate shielding of course... Because if they don't adopt a made up redefinition of human shields then their arguemnt falls apart and they discover that it's them who was delusional.
People aren't human shields because they live in one of the most dense areas in the world. They're not human shields if a tunnel runs under their house but they can't even know about it or access it. The area isn't even unstable (but they will claim as their did in other posts that all these homes needed to be demolished anyway so the IDF is doing Gazans a favor because the 'ground is unstable'... Sadly for them that Hamas have actual engineers).
And in any case, using human shields doesn't allow the IDF to kill everyone... But how else will they carry out the genocide while having useful idiots repeat their claim and feel no guilt about it?
But they can't possibly admit that... Because then, their argument all falls apart and to their horror they will see the IDF in its true form... They will see that the number of "massacres" committed by Israel this war alone is so fucking horrendous. The guilt and shame will kick in.
It's like how cops shoot people with their hands up. Guess where those cops get their training.
I don't understand how anyone can fire upon someone holding a white flag, they should be tried and sentenced.
Because Israelis are raised from birth to view everyone in Gaza as sub-human scum who would kill them at first opportunity if given one. The far right government propaganda has done a number on the population.
Yeah: extreme rabid violent racism.
It's why I started calling them Nazis: because of all the variants of Fascism, at the moment with all that we're seeing in Gaza it's Nazism that's the one closest what is being done by Israel.
If you think about it, systematic state-level extreme racism is only natural for an etnostate created during WWII and heavilly reliant on the way of thinking that lead to WWII - that of viewing people not as individual humans whose worth or unworth is defined by their actions and the actions they support but rather as born member of etnicities, with everybody of an etnicity judged as a group to be worthy or unworthy.
So reliant was Israel on etnic identitarianism for its identity and reason to be that when they reached the same level of power and confidence they behave just like all other such nations when they had such power, including the very one which is the Evil Opressor in Israel's Founding Story: Nazi Germany.
I think that's fair.
Is the presumption that any confusion from labelling them as such is actually not anywhere near the value of like pointing out the alleged truthfulness which comes from the analogy made by labelling people in Israel as such?
Sorry for the direct language I have ASD, I'm just trying to understand what people mean usually but it's been told to me that it is rude or offensive so I apologize if that is the case.
Well, notice how I never say "Israelis", but rather "Israel", "authorities of Israel", "the leaders of Israel" or the "government of Israel" (and not just in this post but more broadly).
That's because it would indeed be massivelly unfair to label all Israelis on the actions of the state of Israel: even if the country is supposedly a Democracy and even if it was a perfect Democracy (and this latter it definitelly isn't) we can at most claim that most Isrealis support the actions of their government and hence those that do can be judged on that support, never that Israelis in general can be judged on that. One can only pass judgment on individual people (Israelis or otherwise) based on what those individues support and how they act.
So whilst criticising the actions of the nation of Israel, executed on the orders of the elected government of Israel, which was supposedly elected and represents a majority of Israelis, I'm trying hard to not label all Israelis as a group because it would be unfair to the many Israelis that don't support this shit and, as you rightly point out, it would be quite the hypocrisy for me to complain about others treating people as part of groups and then go and myself do just that.
PS: I have no problem with direct language and in fact vastly prefer it like that, mostly because my core adult growth years were mostly lived in The Netherlands and the Dutch tend to culturally be quite direct. That said, thank you for considering that the person on the other side might feel that direct language is unpleasant.
Ah yes very fair. I did not do a close reading and missed that, I did not notice or see how careful you were with your language, your explanation is much appreciated!
Do you give any credit to Hamas for holding their families as human shields or for decades of suicide bombings and martyrdom?
Weird that Israel has an international coalition of western powers and respected countries behind it, and the coalition behind Palestine is as follows:
Hamas also has a number of non-state affiliates that support it including:
Really, these are the friends of your friends? You sure you didn't get tricked? I mean, here you are taking an absolutely ridiculous position so you can stand up for suicide bombers and jihadists.
Sort of seems like it's more about the fact that Israel desires to be a democracy but is surrounded by Islamic fundamentalists who want to subjugate people under authoritarian theocracies and ancient superstition with zero possibility of granting lasting human rights for tens of millions of people.
The world is not going to miss Hamas after its gone, least of all the human shields Hamas forces to stay behind and be bombed whenever Israel warns people that they are striking a nearby military target.
Oh, the irony of claiming Palestinians are dying because Hamas uses them as human shields under a video were an IDF soldier straight of murders a Palestinian with a white flag.
That's the very definition of self-disproven bullshit.
Also one wonders how exactly Hamas' use of Palestinians as human shields would explain members of the Israeli state calling Palestinians (not Hamas, Palestinians) "human animals" and "violent", the kind of talk which is neatly and easilly explained by members of the Israeli government being rabid racists and something which is even consistent with every single thing they've ever said about Palestinians as well as their actions - lots of illogical and falacious argumentative contortions are required to force the "human shields" theory to explain all sorts of statements and actions by the Israeli authorities but the "rabid racist" theory just straight up fits like a glove (Occan's Razor easilly applies here).
Further, you provide a wonderful example of the rabid racism I mention, by immediatelly going on and on about Hamas to justify killing Palestinians, as if all Palestinians are the same and hence all Hamas and deserving of the same fate.
C'mon, just admit your major hard-on from seeing the "lesser races" being "put in their place" and stop the hypocrite instantly self-disproven bullshit rant. At least you would be deserving of a little bit of respect for your honesty.
Nah, I'm not impressed by the unscripted remarks of a few extremist members of the Israeli government, most especially when that rhetoric does not match the facts on the ground.
This war is about protecting Israel from an existential threat. Israel is deserving of that protection because it is a democracy. It's really as simple as that. The Palestinian people have had 100 years to stop deploying terrorism as a method of achieving political ends and they have utterly failed. After October 7, enough is enough.
I never once said anything about any civilians deserving this fate. However, it is not Israel that put them there. It is Hamas. Period.
Including the ones in charge of the security forces...
Wow, that's very nice. It still doesn't match the activity or facts on the ground.
If the ground activity match the rhetoric of the three or four people you are talking about, it would look like this:
There would be direct military strikes on roads, power infrastructure, and water infrastructure without any pretext of tunnels or Hamas fighters being present;
There would be no humanitarian aid corridors;
There would not be phone call, text message, leaflet, and roof knock warnings before every bombing;
Every day there would be dozens or hundreds of videos of soldiers with rifles or tanks with machine guns opening fire on large groups of civilians;
The civilian death toll would be way, way higher than 1% of the population (1% of Gaza, 0.4% of all Palestinians) after four months;
The numbers of daily casualties would be going up and up instead of trending downward as they have been week after week.
Well they bombed the power and water facilities. They bombed the humanitarian evacuation routes and safe zones. They don't do any warnings during high tempo mission periods, and they may warn as little as one person and give them 5 minutes to evacuate multiple apartment buildings. At that point it's pro forma at best and torture at worst.
You're literally commenting on a thread where they shot at civilians. They wouldn't in fact shoot every civilian though because they do still need to be able to shoot at Hamas and soldiers can't carry an infinite amount of ammunition. Furthermore, they're instigating a famine. So there's no need to shoot them.
And your last two points are just restatements.
When you can't refute facts you just make things up or spout generalizations as universal facts?
When did they bomb power and water facilities? What facility? What date? What was the explanation? What was the known intelligence? You can find it for just about any specific events you want to cite. Unless of course you're just repeating bullshit generalizations that you heard somewhere.
Who this sole individual that received a warning and given five minutes to evacuate multiple buildings? In my understanding the warnings are a model of effectiveness used by other militaries operating in urban environments all over the world. There are records of Hamas receiving warnings and then forcing every resident nearby up to the rooftop of the building to die for the cause.
Instigating a famine? By what, opening humanitarian corridors in the first week of the war and continuing them virtually without interruption every day since? How many people have died of starvation so far, do you have any figures?
CSIS
IPC
The IDF is severely restricting the flow of aid by keeping border crossings closed. The evidence is clear. On this track Israel will commit genocide by starvation.
They're just going to say it was justified to kill all these people because Hamas fighters are in the vicinity. That person you are replying to doesn't seem to understand that the presence of terrorists around people doesn't excuse killing those people under any circumstance.
They will shift the blame away to Hamas. It's like if you and your whole family were getting murdered by someone, then they yell, "Look at whst you made me do!" as they stab your wife.
Yeah it's not my first round with this guy. But if nobody pushes back his narrative stands.
Yeah, because it's absolutelly normal everywhere in the world for government ministers to deem a whole etnicity "human animals" and suggest nuking a neighbouring enclave and not be kicked out of that government before the day is over.
Also the idea that a country with fighter jets, tanks and even nukes is under extential threat from a bunch of murders from with homemade rockets from a neighbouring country whose land they've been stealing for over half a century, would already be unbelieveable in the story of a Fantasy book, but trying to pass that as reality is really taking the piss out of everybody else.
Go pull the other one.
It seems like you don't know enough about this conflict to really have an opinion.
The existential threat would be the organized and internationally funded terrorist organization operating with impunity within Israel's borders under the ideology of Islamic Jihad.
The terrorists here are also supported by Iran.
Whatever hope Palestine may have had for a Tuesday solution ended on October 7 when when Hamas sold out its people and its country in order to do 1,200 murders.
Oh man, doubling down on fantasy now with the added "YoU KNoZ noTHingZ WHiLe I KNoZ aLL" style of "argument".
What perfect example of the wishfull thinking and self-delusion of rabid racism overriding all traces of even the simplest logic.
You're really working hard at proving the point of the guy I originally answered to in this string of comments, as well as my own.
Hey, maybe try refuting any of my arguments instead of a bunch of hyperbole and nonsense.
Being the same line of argument as your previous post only reframed and with a falacy of guilt by association thrown in, the argument was already refuted in my last post.
I mean, I suppose I could point out that this last post of yours relies on the idea that Muslims are all the same hence Israel is justified in attacking Palestinians because ... Iran.
But that would just be repeating myself, again and pointing out, again the racist "logic" used to tie all those actors together as "guilty as one" and hence "any of them can be targetted because the actions of any other make Israel be 'existentially threathened'".
I suppose I could also point out that "the country is both strong (has nukes and the support of the greatest military power of the world) and weak (is "existencially threatened") at the same time" is a very traditional Fascist cliché used to excuse aggression.
You're not exactly dispelling the whole a-lot-like-the-Nazis impression of Israel.
The existential threat is the ideology of every country surrounded Israel, one of which is actively trying to develop its own nuclear weapons and which has sworn it will use them against Israel if it does.
That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing intelligent or that you didn't pull out of your ass.
You mean the organization that Israel influenced the creation of through decades of mistreatment and mishandling of the situation? The same one Israel is on record saying it's a good thing as it allows Israel to treat Palestine as a hostile state? Basically exactly what they're doing now, killing anyone and everyone and just shrugging and saying "because hamas"?
"Israel is on record"? It's a country. A democracy at that, inherently made up of conflicting points of view and coalitions.
1% of the population dead = "killing anyone and everyone."
You sound hysterical and emotional.
Fine, Israel's leader/government, as elected by its population, is on record. Does that make it better?
1% of the population is a lot of people. That's tens of thousands of lives cut short. Kids who'll never grow up, families torn apart, etc. Should that not elicit emotion? There's plenty of videos of children and unarmed people trying to surrender or otherwise being shot. Seems like anyone and everyone to me.
Fun fact! Hysteria was originally thought to be a condition that only applied to women, hence the Greek root "hyster" for womb, as if that were the source of irrational emotion.
For your convenience:
Plan Dalet and Declassified Massacres
1967 war Declassified
Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations
Palestinian Prisoners in Israel and Military Court
Child abuse of Palestinian prisoners
Gaza March for Return Protest
Palestinians lack civil rights
Occupation and 50 years of dispossession
Arab League advocating for unified state 1948
Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
10 Myths of Israel
History of peace process
How the US became the ally of Israel
Arab Israelis are not equal including Education (2001 report)
Apartheid
Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)
Settler Violence
Torture and Abuse in Interrogations
No freedom of movement
Gaza Blockade is Occupation
Water control
Wow, appreciate the resources. Commenting to view this later...
Thanks. I also recommend the books Ilan Pappe has done if you want a more academic approach. A lot of this is independent verification of his work that I've found.
Hmm weird the Israeli who I knew wasn't like that. Sorry to interrupt your broad generalizations
Edit: downvoters mad that I know Israelis who aren't hateful? That actually surprises you? Think I'm lying? People are fucking weird.
I agree that generalizations don't make sense. But do you mean they weren't raised to view Gazans as subhuman or that they don't look down on Gazans as a grown-up?
Both
Good to know that, I put a lot of faith in Israelis who rise against their own government.
Well I'm not saying their parents are opposed to their government entirely, but they absolutely don't consider anyone "subhuman". I haven't spoken to them in years so I don't know their take on what's happening now, but I'd be willing to bet they would at least admit it's vastly disproportionate to the Hamas actions
Uncivilized has a pretty good short videoon what makes the israeli's act this way . They are gaslighted into oblivion from birth to believe that Palestinians are the literal Naiz's
I watched this the other good. Good report, short and simple.
I would also recommend this: https://youtu.be/zxsWrzpqnRs?feature=shared
The IDF culture is insane.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Uncivilized has a pretty good short video
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Do let us know if you talk to them. Always nice to hear a different perspective and an example that breaks the stereotype.
Yeah. It's unlikely -- it's an ex-girlfriend and her family.
That's anecdotal evidence. Even accepting it as true, which I do, it does not dispute anything I said about the actual, verifiable, systemic brainwashing going on in Israel re: Palestine.
Don't believe me? How about a video of a former Zionist Israeli man discussing just that: https://x.com/ME_Observer_/status/1731160875308888191?s=20
I believe you, but that is separate from what I'm saying. For example, I was brainwashed to think America is the best country on Earth. If it worked, it was temporary as I didn't believe that by age 20, and I'm far from alone. So I'm just saying that just because there is brainwashing going on there, doesn't mean "Israelis think Palestinians are sub-human".
I'm a Palestinian and I want to thank you for this video. I always wondered what would make indoctrinated Zionists see the wrongs of their actions. This guy found a formula that works: go there and talk to them.
I recommend this documentary interviewing Settlers: https://youtu.be/Eac1l1ozfLc?feature=shared
Especially at minute 10:30
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/Eac1l1ozfLc?feature=shared
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That's a very good point, I'm sure most Israelis are lovely wonderful people despite the government and atrocities being committed. I bet most Palestinians are equally wonderful. Maybe we should be against indiscriminately killing them?
If you see that person as an insect, a pest, not a person, it would be like swatting a mosquito. We are witnessing genocide.
I agree. Hamas is trying to eradicate the Palestinians by using them as human shields to gain sympathy for its cause. They call it martyrdom and they are proud as hell to have their families die as "true Palestinians" but let's start calling it what it is.
Wtf are you talking about? This guy was trying to get his mother and brother out and evacuated and then was shot holding a white flag. Please point out the Hamas in the video using anyone as a human shield.
It's this thinking that causes this Nazi shit to happen.
Nah the Nazi shit was a massive and organized campaign of extermination. It was planned and intentional.
It's a stupid comparison. This is one bad shooting in a war zone. Along with a few others, doesn't make it anything like the Nazis.
Hamas's human shield strategy, however, is an organized campaign of extermination, planned and intentional.
I'm also not talking about the guy in the video. Seems like he was murdered, and by a soldier, which makes it a war crime. One war crime, or a dozen war crimes, or a hundred, does not change the cassus belli or the lawful nature of the larger war itself.
No different than 1 or 12 or 100 guys selling drugs on a street corner would make anyone standing on the street corner a drug dealer; it doesn't.
It does when the person who owns the street corner says that this street corner is for drug dealers. Israel has said out loud they want everything in Palestine, that the Palestinians are a problem and it would be easier if they reduced them from millions to a couple thousand, that they're animals, etc. It's all genocidal language. You don't have to guess.
Not to mention Israel is using that same exact logic to ethnically cleanse Gaza, by pretending that every Palestinian is Hamas (despite greater than 50% deaths being women and children).
And it's not one bad shooting, or even a couple hundred war crimes. It's countless, or maybe one huge war crime. They're targeting all civilian infrastructure and have been since it's started, and justify it by saying Hamas is using all of it. Plus there's what's been happening in the West Bank forever. Millions of Gazans have been displaced already with no food or water and only the clothed and supplies they can carry. Journalists are getting shot every day.
Hamas is not doing some organized campaign of extermination. You just have to look at the numbers to see that. Hamas is a religious terrorist group that's arisen as a symptom of the need for armed resistance because Palestine has been getting screwed and lost all their nearby allies who could help after the Oslo Accords, and strengthened by Israel because they needed an enemy scapegoat to justify taking everything and denying a Palestinian state. They're a ragtag group shooting unguided improvised rockets over that fall on their own houses some of the time and fizzle and do nothing most of the rest of the time. If you want to look at organized extermination, look at the block by block bombing and displacement done by the IDF. Look at the side with the military vs the side with civilians trying to smuggle guns and hide in tunnels.
It's the same as the Native American raids, slave revolts, or the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Hundreds of people are dying every week. There's no food, water, or power. Israel is an apartheid regime. They bomb hospitals, refugee camps, and humanitarian corridors "for ecsape".
Never again, means never again. Not just never again for white people.
If there is a tunnel under the building, they aren't targeting the building, they are targeting the tunnel. The building has to be razed either way. If the occupants and neighbors are all warned to leave, that's good enough by any standard of moral warfare.
It's a shame that Hamas built them under their people's homes and under vital infrastructure. It stuns me that rather than being violently overthrown by an angry mob of their countrymen, Hamas is extremely popular. I guess if all the suicide bombings and rocket attacks on innocent people didn't turn the Palestinian public against Hamas, why would October 7 be any different? Personally if some group asked me to ignore an evacuation order and allow myself to be blown up in order to die as a hero, I'd tell them they were absolutely insane and I would leave. Of course Hamas, insane terrorists that they are, would likely not allow me to leave, because to them there is actually nothing better than seeing Palestinians die by Israeli weapons.
No it's because the people who live there know what happens when they leave: they won't be able to come back. Palestinians are still trying to get the right return for the 700,000 that were kicked out of their homes during the nakba.The people there have living memory of these horrible events. Same thing happened with the Native Americans and the Trail of Tears. It's one of the stages of ethnic cleansing. Now over a million Palestinians are displaced without food or water or shelter and they're sick been a sick and an Egypt not letting them in.
And for some reason you blame Hamas rather than the people doing the actual bombing, which boggles the mind. Why don't you blame the people blockading the Palestinians for decades? The one restricting their calories, disturbing their sleep with drones, taking their homes in the West Bank, arresting them without trial or charge, cutting off their electricity or trash, preventing them from accessing water or oil, restricting the roads they can drive out cost systems they can use, telling them to go one way then bombing those same escape routes? How is all that not the fault of the Israel, the ones actually doing those actions? The ones motivating the armed struggle through continual oppression, apartheid, and war crimes?
When it comes to human shields, the only independent verification back in 2014 is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group. The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too. Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.
And let's just conveniently ignore how much the IDF uses human shields while we're at it
Delusional. They are using human shields right now and it has caused tens of thousands of needless deaths. That's what they wanted though.
Delusional with sources. Got it. You don't need to make things up about Hamas for people not to like them. They have done atrocities such as terrorism, certainly. Doesn't change the fact that all Palestinian people deserve emancipation.
They mean proximate shielding of course... Because if they don't adopt a made up redefinition of human shields then their arguemnt falls apart and they discover that it's them who was delusional.
People aren't human shields because they live in one of the most dense areas in the world. They're not human shields if a tunnel runs under their house but they can't even know about it or access it. The area isn't even unstable (but they will claim as their did in other posts that all these homes needed to be demolished anyway so the IDF is doing Gazans a favor because the 'ground is unstable'... Sadly for them that Hamas have actual engineers).
And in any case, using human shields doesn't allow the IDF to kill everyone... But how else will they carry out the genocide while having useful idiots repeat their claim and feel no guilt about it?
But they can't possibly admit that... Because then, their argument all falls apart and to their horror they will see the IDF in its true form... They will see that the number of "massacres" committed by Israel this war alone is so fucking horrendous. The guilt and shame will kick in.
It's like how cops shoot people with their hands up. Guess where those cops get their training.