The problem with "not all men" is that there is an obvious follow up question: "which men?"
If you can't answer that fast enough to determine if you're dealing with a violent man, then "not all men" is meaningless to a woman who is trying to not get killed.
Also, you're basically saying women don't think about this. I wonder what kind of answers you'd get if you actually asked any of them about this.
This is the sort of logic I've seen people use to justify racism. "Not all of them of course but enough, I'm just being careful".
Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?
Do you not know how often racists use crime stats to bolster their arguments too?
Men more often kill women is no grounds to make blanket arguments about men in general, same way as some minorities being overly represented in rape statistics is no grounds to make blanket statements about those minorities.
You can say it's just you "being careful" and whatnot, but you should realize that you're using word for word the same arguments racists use to justify their racism. Both represent an actual threat to women for sure but it's no justification for labeling them all, that's the point.
What are women doing with this information?
What are racists doing with their - actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it - information?
What are women doing with this information?
A woman might in both cases be vary of the specific groups here, at the mildest level. Discrimination can range from very minor to very hostile behaviour. Basically your imagination is the limit for what someone might do about these prejudiced feelings.
actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it
Statistics Finland, Finnish Government, the police and several university studies have made deep dives into this. But if you can show them wrong then by all means, go ahead. But I can provide you the sources for these claims, if you really want to go there.
You're supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
And the correct answer as to what those groups are doing with the information is:
Women are generally careful not to offend men.
Racists participate in violence against minorities.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you're even slightly paying attention.
You’re supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
You yourself already claimed the statistics are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it" and now you are indignant that I'm asking you to show your work. But very well, I'll supply the sources first and then perhaps you can tell me how they are "twisted made up bullshit".
Have at it. Shouldn't be that hard because you seemingly already are knowledgeable about these stats and know they're bullshit.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you’re even slightly paying attention.
Nobody is arguing that all forms and types of prejudice are similar. The argument is that you are using the same arguments for your prejudice as those arguing for race based prejudice. But if your argument really is that the effects from one form of prejudice are better than others so it's fine, then alright. It's just a terrible look and makes it easier for racists to get away with their shit since their reasoning have been already accepted in other contexts.
Okay, so I think you knew this going in, but those are mostly written in Finnish, and since you already know I'm Australian, you probably knew I can't speak Finnish. So like, great job there.
Anyway, of the one that I can actually read, the problem is immediately apparent in the title.
Foreigners more often suspects of offences than Finns
Suspects.
That right there is the problem.
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races - and twist them to a racist end, which is usually further violence towards those minorities.
Femicide is a real thing.
The difference is clear, and if you can't see the difference, then maybe you don't actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don't know, but I do know you're missing the point.
since you already know I’m Australian, you probably knew I can’t speak Finnish.
I'm not sure where I was supposed to know that from but I was making a claim and I think it was a fair assumption you knew what you were talking about since you dismissed it right away. So having to read Finnish sources about a Finnish topic doesn't seem like too much to ask. I'm not sure how you got to your conclusion before that the stats are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it” if you can't speak Finnish and don't know how to translate them. If it was through English language sources, surely you can use them here to help your argument about the stats being bullshit.
So like, great job there.
Nobody forced you to make a claim that the stats are bullshit without even having checked them.
Suspects. That right there is the problem.
Not just suspects, as shown in the Government of Finland and University of Helsinki studies. Did you even look at them?
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races
Again something discussed in the studies. Racial bias hasn't been in any study shown to be anywhere near enough as an explanatory factor for having so much higher rate of sexual violence. Another things they've considered were for example poverty, culture, trauma and so on. I think poverty was ruled out as well, since even with racial bias, it still was much too high compared to population average. Some sort of combined factor is what they've considered, but a lot of the studies are unsure what causes it, but studies are very confident that's it's both a real thing and not made up by bias.
Whatever the explanatory factors, same as with men being violent towards women, the discussion is about what the real effect is and if that justifies blanket prejudice.
The difference is clear, and if you can’t see the difference, then maybe you don’t actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don’t know, but I do know you’re missing the point.
I've just provided you the studies that show that the much higher than average prevalence for sexual violence among some immigrant groups. It's a real thing. Men being violent against women is a real thing. I care that people are hurt. I'm saying I don't think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent or call all of the men in certain immigrant groups rapists. It's fucked up imo. I wouldn't exactly blame women for being alert I guess, it's a reaction, but when people are justifying it online it does feel hurtful to be grouped in there. So no wonder people speak up. It's the same with so many types of prejudice, be it because of sex/gender, skin colour, age, whatnot.
Okay, I'm going to explain this:
actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it
Whenever you look at a racist trying to use statistics to bolster their worldview, it always winds up being thinly disguised bullshit. Not the statistic, but how they abuse them and pretend they say things they don't. That's a consistent pattern, and your attempts to do the same thing so far don't seem to be any different.
Not just suspects, as shown in the Government of Finland and University of Helsinki studies. Did you even look at them?
Of course I looked at them. That is how - please read this, and try to internalise it - I knew they were written in Finnish and I couldn't read them. What do you want me to do with them, exactly?
It's muddy and the exact mechanisms aren't clear as to why there are these discrepancies.
The femicide thing is extremely clear.
I’m saying I don’t think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent
I didn't say that.
I wouldn’t exactly blame women for being alert I guess, it’s a reaction
That's all I said initially, and people, including you, are getting all bent out of shape over it.
when people are justifying it online it does feel hurtful to be grouped in there
But you just admitted it was justified to feel that way so like... why don't you like it when people justify it?
And yeah, it hurts. Guess what? Misogyny hurts men too. The answer is not to deny that it exists.
Whenever you look at a racist trying to use statistics to bolster their worldview, it always winds up being thinly disguised bullshit. Not the statistic, but how they abuse them and pretend they say things they don’t. That’s a consistent pattern, and your attempts to do the same thing so far don’t seem to be any different.
I'm not arguing for racism against any groups. My point is the opposite. Yes the statistics (which you claimed are bullshit but haven't been able to dismiss in any way) show that certain immigrant groups are way overrepresented in sexual violence. Yes, men are more violent towards women than women are towards women. But I specifically don't think it justifies blanket statements and labeling all of them as violent or rapists and definitely wouldn't be surprised if any people from those groups get bothered when such blanket statements are made.
Existence of the higher rate of violence (sexual, physical) is not justified reason imo to label all members of a group as such. That's the whole point.
Of course I looked at them. That is how - please read this, and try to internalise it - I knew they were written in Finnish and I couldn’t read them. What do you want me to do with them, exactly?
If you are claiming they are bullshit then I'd prefer you'd show me how. If you can't read them, I suggest translating them or providing stats or studies of your own that show the opposite result or dismiss the earlier stats and studies. Those can be in any language you wish.
If you are claiming my claims are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it", what I'm obviously hoping from you is the explain how. How did you come to that conclusion, is there something about these specific stats, if you perhaps have better ones or studies and or something.
The femicide thing is extremely clear.
I don't think the exact reasons for that have been made clear, what mix of biology, culture, poverty, misogyny and so on makes it up. Same as the sexual violence case. Hell, a lot of those factors propably overlap. But as said, the end result, these people (men, some immigrant groups etc) are cause of the violence. But the whole point was that while I understand caution (be it towards men in general or just certain men), I think the justification, blanket statements and mocking people who are hurt and alarmed by such blanket statements is bad.
I understand you're only using the statistics to make a point, and I'm explaining that when you look at the specific, actual information that is being revealed, the difference is clear. You seem determined to only look at the aesthetics of using statistics.
And I very easily dismissed the one that I could read. I'm not going to translate everything you send me so I can play whackamole with it, especially when we agree on the fact that the racists are wrong to use these studies. Unless we don't, in which case the fact you have these in your back pocket ready to go really does say something about you, doesn't it?
the end result, these people (men, some immigrant groups etc) are cause of the violence
Oh no! That sounds like you just made a blanket statement that men and immigrants are violent. That's actually something I've never done, unless you can quote me saying that.
You keep talking about these "blanket statements". Which ones? Quote them please. I would like to know what I have said that has got you on this tear about racism and immigration and why it's unfair to talk about statistics or whatever.
So, absolutely no interest in the subject matter then. I've been trying to figure you out and I think I've got it:
You're using racism as a tool to deflect any talk of sexism, and to imply that saying men are far more likely to kill women is sexist against men, even though it is 100% true. And even then you're talking about racism using anti-black racist talking points, which is extremely telling.
You're staying in the realm of innuendo though. You're not really saying anything. I bet if you actually stood up and said what you mean it would be horrific and you'd get banned, which is why you're not doing it.
1
The only thing that's clear is that you're a coward who will not stand up and say what they mean.
If you want statistics I added them to my original post. I don't care what you have to say about it. It's not worth trying to parse your bullshit.
Statistics are a dubious justification for blanket prejudice. It's the exact same thing racists use.
1
Said by someone that clearly doesn't understand why that is a racist and misleading statistic
Can I use this fantastic opinion to back racism as well, or is is exclusively reserved for sexism? Thanks!
Let's apply this logic to racism!
Black men usually get the talk at a very young age that they need to be super careful in every interaction with police or else they might be killed.
Now, not all cops are trying to kill black men in traffic stops. But if you don't know which cops will kill you on the flimsiest pretext, then this isn't terribly useful to a black man trying not to get killed.
Tell me, is it "racist" of these black men to be concerned about being killed by cops?
Cops aren't a race. Actually basing this on racism would go something like this:
It's not a perfect comparison, but the point is that these are people who are simply being extremely polite to avoid the potential threat of violence, and the other party is the one who has an undue likelihood of perpetrating that violence.
In both cases, the violence is the bigotry, not the worry about who might inflict that violence.
Some - wrong - people might say that black men worrying about being killed by a cop is racism because they are acting on information about their race. These are presumably the same people saying women are sexist for worrying about male violence. As always, noticing bigotry is in fact not the real bigotry.
Let's go back to the original example: a woman dating.
Assume the woman is a lesbian. Would it be racist for her to apply the behavior in the post when she dated women of color, if her opinion was based on the statistic quoted in my last post?
My answer would be the same: it would be racist.
You are working really hard to not answer my questions.
Which men?
And, are women conscious of the danger when saying no to men?
This is a repackaging of "not all men".
The problem with "not all men" is that there is an obvious follow up question: "which men?"
If you can't answer that fast enough to determine if you're dealing with a violent man, then "not all men" is meaningless to a woman who is trying to not get killed.
Also, you're basically saying women don't think about this. I wonder what kind of answers you'd get if you actually asked any of them about this.
This is the sort of logic I've seen people use to justify racism. "Not all of them of course but enough, I'm just being careful".
Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?
Do you not know how often racists use crime stats to bolster their arguments too?
Men more often kill women is no grounds to make blanket arguments about men in general, same way as some minorities being overly represented in rape statistics is no grounds to make blanket statements about those minorities.
You can say it's just you "being careful" and whatnot, but you should realize that you're using word for word the same arguments racists use to justify their racism. Both represent an actual threat to women for sure but it's no justification for labeling them all, that's the point.
What are women doing with this information?
What are racists doing with their - actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it - information?
A woman might in both cases be vary of the specific groups here, at the mildest level. Discrimination can range from very minor to very hostile behaviour. Basically your imagination is the limit for what someone might do about these prejudiced feelings.
Statistics Finland, Finnish Government, the police and several university studies have made deep dives into this. But if you can show them wrong then by all means, go ahead. But I can provide you the sources for these claims, if you really want to go there.
You're supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
And the correct answer as to what those groups are doing with the information is:
Women are generally careful not to offend men.
Racists participate in violence against minorities.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you're even slightly paying attention.
You yourself already claimed the statistics are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it" and now you are indignant that I'm asking you to show your work. But very well, I'll supply the sources first and then perhaps you can tell me how they are "twisted made up bullshit".
Statistics Finland (the national statistical institution): https://www.stat.fi/til/rpk/2018/13/rpk_2018_13_2019-05-16_tie_001_en.html
Government of Finland (pdf): https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/163523/VNTEAS_2021_56.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
University of Helsinki (pdf): https://helda.helsinki.fi/server/api/core/bitstreams/fc2ee0d3-2124-4a65-9afa-f4a12dd42708/content
Have at it. Shouldn't be that hard because you seemingly already are knowledgeable about these stats and know they're bullshit.
Nobody is arguing that all forms and types of prejudice are similar. The argument is that you are using the same arguments for your prejudice as those arguing for race based prejudice. But if your argument really is that the effects from one form of prejudice are better than others so it's fine, then alright. It's just a terrible look and makes it easier for racists to get away with their shit since their reasoning have been already accepted in other contexts.
Okay, so I think you knew this going in, but those are mostly written in Finnish, and since you already know I'm Australian, you probably knew I can't speak Finnish. So like, great job there.
Anyway, of the one that I can actually read, the problem is immediately apparent in the title.
Suspects.
That right there is the problem.
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races - and twist them to a racist end, which is usually further violence towards those minorities.
Femicide is a real thing.
The difference is clear, and if you can't see the difference, then maybe you don't actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don't know, but I do know you're missing the point.
I'm not sure where I was supposed to know that from but I was making a claim and I think it was a fair assumption you knew what you were talking about since you dismissed it right away. So having to read Finnish sources about a Finnish topic doesn't seem like too much to ask. I'm not sure how you got to your conclusion before that the stats are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it” if you can't speak Finnish and don't know how to translate them. If it was through English language sources, surely you can use them here to help your argument about the stats being bullshit.
Nobody forced you to make a claim that the stats are bullshit without even having checked them.
Not just suspects, as shown in the Government of Finland and University of Helsinki studies. Did you even look at them?
Again something discussed in the studies. Racial bias hasn't been in any study shown to be anywhere near enough as an explanatory factor for having so much higher rate of sexual violence. Another things they've considered were for example poverty, culture, trauma and so on. I think poverty was ruled out as well, since even with racial bias, it still was much too high compared to population average. Some sort of combined factor is what they've considered, but a lot of the studies are unsure what causes it, but studies are very confident that's it's both a real thing and not made up by bias.
Whatever the explanatory factors, same as with men being violent towards women, the discussion is about what the real effect is and if that justifies blanket prejudice.
I've just provided you the studies that show that the much higher than average prevalence for sexual violence among some immigrant groups. It's a real thing. Men being violent against women is a real thing. I care that people are hurt. I'm saying I don't think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent or call all of the men in certain immigrant groups rapists. It's fucked up imo. I wouldn't exactly blame women for being alert I guess, it's a reaction, but when people are justifying it online it does feel hurtful to be grouped in there. So no wonder people speak up. It's the same with so many types of prejudice, be it because of sex/gender, skin colour, age, whatnot.
Okay, I'm going to explain this:
Whenever you look at a racist trying to use statistics to bolster their worldview, it always winds up being thinly disguised bullshit. Not the statistic, but how they abuse them and pretend they say things they don't. That's a consistent pattern, and your attempts to do the same thing so far don't seem to be any different.
Of course I looked at them. That is how - please read this, and try to internalise it - I knew they were written in Finnish and I couldn't read them. What do you want me to do with them, exactly?
It's muddy and the exact mechanisms aren't clear as to why there are these discrepancies.
The femicide thing is extremely clear.
I didn't say that.
That's all I said initially, and people, including you, are getting all bent out of shape over it.
But you just admitted it was justified to feel that way so like... why don't you like it when people justify it?
And yeah, it hurts. Guess what? Misogyny hurts men too. The answer is not to deny that it exists.
I'm not arguing for racism against any groups. My point is the opposite. Yes the statistics (which you claimed are bullshit but haven't been able to dismiss in any way) show that certain immigrant groups are way overrepresented in sexual violence. Yes, men are more violent towards women than women are towards women. But I specifically don't think it justifies blanket statements and labeling all of them as violent or rapists and definitely wouldn't be surprised if any people from those groups get bothered when such blanket statements are made.
Existence of the higher rate of violence (sexual, physical) is not justified reason imo to label all members of a group as such. That's the whole point.
If you are claiming they are bullshit then I'd prefer you'd show me how. If you can't read them, I suggest translating them or providing stats or studies of your own that show the opposite result or dismiss the earlier stats and studies. Those can be in any language you wish.
If you are claiming my claims are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it", what I'm obviously hoping from you is the explain how. How did you come to that conclusion, is there something about these specific stats, if you perhaps have better ones or studies and or something.
I don't think the exact reasons for that have been made clear, what mix of biology, culture, poverty, misogyny and so on makes it up. Same as the sexual violence case. Hell, a lot of those factors propably overlap. But as said, the end result, these people (men, some immigrant groups etc) are cause of the violence. But the whole point was that while I understand caution (be it towards men in general or just certain men), I think the justification, blanket statements and mocking people who are hurt and alarmed by such blanket statements is bad.
I understand you're only using the statistics to make a point, and I'm explaining that when you look at the specific, actual information that is being revealed, the difference is clear. You seem determined to only look at the aesthetics of using statistics.
And I very easily dismissed the one that I could read. I'm not going to translate everything you send me so I can play whackamole with it, especially when we agree on the fact that the racists are wrong to use these studies. Unless we don't, in which case the fact you have these in your back pocket ready to go really does say something about you, doesn't it?
Oh no! That sounds like you just made a blanket statement that men and immigrants are violent. That's actually something I've never done, unless you can quote me saying that.
You keep talking about these "blanket statements". Which ones? Quote them please. I would like to know what I have said that has got you on this tear about racism and immigration and why it's unfair to talk about statistics or whatever.
1
So, absolutely no interest in the subject matter then. I've been trying to figure you out and I think I've got it:
You're using racism as a tool to deflect any talk of sexism, and to imply that saying men are far more likely to kill women is sexist against men, even though it is 100% true. And even then you're talking about racism using anti-black racist talking points, which is extremely telling.
You're staying in the realm of innuendo though. You're not really saying anything. I bet if you actually stood up and said what you mean it would be horrific and you'd get banned, which is why you're not doing it.
1
The only thing that's clear is that you're a coward who will not stand up and say what they mean.
If you want statistics I added them to my original post. I don't care what you have to say about it. It's not worth trying to parse your bullshit.
Statistics are a dubious justification for blanket prejudice. It's the exact same thing racists use.
1
Said by someone that clearly doesn't understand why that is a racist and misleading statistic
Or "prejizz" for short.
Can I use this fantastic opinion to back racism as well, or is is exclusively reserved for sexism? Thanks!
Let's apply this logic to racism!
Black men usually get the talk at a very young age that they need to be super careful in every interaction with police or else they might be killed.
Now, not all cops are trying to kill black men in traffic stops. But if you don't know which cops will kill you on the flimsiest pretext, then this isn't terribly useful to a black man trying not to get killed.
Tell me, is it "racist" of these black men to be concerned about being killed by cops?
Cops aren't a race. Actually basing this on racism would go something like this:
"Of the 9,468 murder arrests in the US in 2017, 53.5% were black and 20.8% Hispanic." Is it racist for cops to be more quick to use deadly force against black people and Hispanic people because they are arrested for violent crime more often than people of other races?
The answer is yes, this is in fact racist.
Footnote: The quoted statistic is the result of systemic racism and various societal issues in the US, and I suggest people read about why there is this discrepancy.
It's not a perfect comparison, but the point is that these are people who are simply being extremely polite to avoid the potential threat of violence, and the other party is the one who has an undue likelihood of perpetrating that violence.
In both cases, the violence is the bigotry, not the worry about who might inflict that violence.
Some - wrong - people might say that black men worrying about being killed by a cop is racism because they are acting on information about their race. These are presumably the same people saying women are sexist for worrying about male violence. As always, noticing bigotry is in fact not the real bigotry.
Let's go back to the original example: a woman dating.
Assume the woman is a lesbian. Would it be racist for her to apply the behavior in the post when she dated women of color, if her opinion was based on the statistic quoted in my last post?
My answer would be the same: it would be racist.
You are working really hard to not answer my questions.
Which men?
And, are women conscious of the danger when saying no to men?