In general, and I'm sure some people here will be incensed at the suggestion, people do not give a shit about women's sports and the only time many of them do is when they find out a "man" is competing in them.
Women care about women's sports.
A lot of them don't. Just like a lot of women are against subsidized pre and post-natal care. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you care about women's issues.
And, based on what I've seen, the vast majority of complaints about this come from men anyway.
Most of the women in women’s sports who are asked support trans inclusion (somewhat sport dependent, some sports are historically more queer friendly than others) and find equal pay to be a much bigger issue for women’s sports. For some reason nobody who is “concerned” about women’s sports wants to hear that, though. 🤷♂️
The reason for women getting paid less in sports is due to advertisement revenue. Not as many people watch women's sports, so advertisers pay less. This results in female athletes getting paid less. I know that economics is not everyone's strong point, but you really don't have to get very deep into it to understand this concept, all it takes is an open mind and the willingness to learn something new.
“Female athletes are more concerned about equal pay than trans people in sports.”
“Ah yes but you see, nobody watches or cares about women’s sports so equal pay is impossible.”
Yes, thank you for illustrating why female athletes are more concerned about that than a manufactured hysteria from the right, lmao.
Many female athletes understand why the pay is less, and so for them, it ceases to be a concern. This is a simple economics/demand issue that many people have no problem grasping. Some people struggle to understand the basics of economics, and for them, they think there is injustice in the pay for women's sports. This same mentality would argue that every meal everywhere on the planet should always cost the same amount. However, the vast majority of people are able to understand why this wouldn't make sense. It is just when emotional issues get mixed in with this basic concept that some people lose their ability to reason logically.
A separate and unrelated group of female athletes would prefer to compete with other people who are genetically similar to themselves so they can see how they rank amongst their peers, and for them transwomen in sports is a concern.
These two issues are not directly connected, and there is no solid reason to bring up one issue to try to downplay the other. While it may feel like changing the subject is a way to win an argument because it moves the focus elsewhere, it doesn't actually work against people who are paying attention. This is the sort of tactic that can be used on children or people who don't really care about a topic, but it does nothing against fully mentally developed people who are genuinely interested in understanding.
Hi! You seem to be under the impression that I’m going to engage with your argument fetish, but you’re going to have to find someone else to take the bait. I do not engage in debate in which minorities are fine to remove from sports, and unfortunately for you since I have been on the internet for more than five minutes I am not swayed by claims of “just wanting to understand.” If you’re so concerned about understanding the issue of trans people being singled out for exclusion from sports you can RTFA ❤️
Well, no worries, before you are at any danger of having an argument or productive conversation with someone, you will first need to learn how to form a coherent point of view. Nobody has said anything about excluding minorities from sports. Sorry if that's not what you are claiming, but I read your last comment several times but was unable to figure out what you were hoping to convey. I'm not sure if the issue was a poor combination of mistyping and autocorrect or what, perhaps you're just sleep deprived or otherwise inebriated. 🫶
literally everyone is talking about whether or not trans women should be allowed in sports. gtfo with your disingenuous rhetoric
That actually isn't what they are talking about. What they are talking about is whether transwomen(genetic men) should be allowed in genetic women's sports. I've yet to see anyone saying that genetic men should not be allowed to play in genetic men's sports. There is no exclusion from sports happening to any minorities here.
In case you are genuinely interested in this topic and not just mindlessly latching onto a cookie-cutter point of view, here is a different way to think about this issue that I have seen make some headway with people in your situation before:
If LeBron James came out as identifying as a 10 year old boy, would you want him playing against your son? Why or why not? If you answer this question honestly, it just may be enlightening. I won't respond any further unless I see genuine effort on your part.
oh God the genetic men phrase again.
Give a reasonable alternative if you don't like it. Unless, that is, your strategy depends on trying to pressure people into not expressing ideas in a clear way.
Google is free! I am allowed to criticize your hateful language! And I don't owe you shit! Hope that helps!
People know the "why", but that doesn't mean that female athletes are happy with it and don't want to be paid more. They absolutely do, it's something that high ranking athletes talk about all the time. But I guess you pay more attention to the headlines hating on trans women.
"economics is not everyone's strong point" GTFO with your condescending attitude. Wow. If you're so interested in telling other people to be open minded, maybe listen to what female athletes actually have to say.
You are right. There are professional female athletes who want to earn more money. Many of them are extremely smart, and they find things they can do that will make them more money. A vocal minority gets stuck trying to fight reality. These are the ones you see and imagine are the majority. This is not the majority by any stretch of the imagination.
If you think it is unfair that women athletes get paid the amount the market pays them, then you have every right to go pay them more. Trying to force other people to pay them more is a waste of time.
The "market" is doing a notoriously great job at distributing wealth right now. How much money do the 1% have now?
Well, unfortunately, lots of people like to complain about what the market does while simultaneously encouraging it to do it with their wallets/purses. For instance, they say the market should give female athletes more money while simultaneously not buying their cards, jerseys, or going to their events.
lmao this is the worst economic analysis I've ever seen
Interesting. Care to elaborate on which part/parts you disagree with? I honestly didn't think any part of this was even slightly controversial.
No :D
Yeah, I'm starting to see a bit of a trend with you. It seems you've been trained to oppose things without knowing why. Believe it or not, there actually are some valid points inside of you, you just need to spend some time getting to know yourself enough to find them.
Wow, I honestly thought Lemmy would be less transphobic. This totally rational comment downvoted for no reason. If most women in sports aren't concerned about trans women being there, why are all these assholes concerned about it.
You misunderstood. Us not wanting to compete against genetic men is absolutely not transphobic. I support transwomen whole-heartedly, they should absolutely have equal rights, and it is rude to intentionally mis-gender them. This has everything to do with wanting fair competition in sports. Men's bodies are built differently than women's bodies. This is not a human issue. This is an animal issue. It is across all species that the bodies of males and females are built differently. If this were not the case, then we never would have had male/female segregation in sports.
Just gonna point out historically most male/female segregation in sports is actually due to sexism, and a lack of women's rights, not due to an "animal issue".
Sexism against who? Do you mean against men since they were not historically allowed to play women's sports sports, while women were allowed to play men's? Correct me if I'm wrong, but women are allowed in nearly all of the world's major leagues. They just don't perform competitively enough to be drafted.
To be clear, I was saying sexual dimorphism goes much deeper than just humans. In most animal species, there is a huge difference in size and strength between males and females. Humans are not unique in this, that's all I was saying.
the word "genetic men" is a terf phrase fyi
Then give a label for someone who is born with a penis. If your goal is clear communication, then clear labeling should be your friend, not something to try to attack into extinction.
You say you want clarity but you're missing clarity yourself. Why is it important to exclude people born with penises from women's sports? You don't know what that person may have experienced hormonally over the years, and you definitely don't know their gender. Someone being born with a penis doesn't actually give you the information you're claiming to want with your terf-phrase. If you want to find inclusive language, maybe look at what some trans orgs have suggested.
Sexual dimorphism. Look it up, learn about it. This is not a new concept. It is well established and runs through the vast majority of animal species. Nobody can help you until you develop a desire to learn. The ball is in your court. Only you can get yourself out of this intellectual and emotional hole that you have dug yourself into.
Sex is a spectrum! Look it up!
I am quite sure I have studied the topic more deeply than you have :D
You are right, it is a spectrum. The spectrum of sex doesn't make sexual dimorphism invalid though. If you have studied this stuff very deeply at all, then you are exceptionally skilled at hiding it. Whenever anyone asks you anything in this thread, you always just instantly dive behind childish name calling and mindless insults. You have an opportunity to share your point of view here, and yet it always seems to come out as if you have no substance whatsoever. I know it's not true. You could be doing so much better.
I'm not interested in arguing with transphobes :) just here for other trans people
Words lose meaning when people use them too much. There actually are people put there that speak derogatorily of trans people. I'm not one of them. It is OK for people to have different points of view. I know you've been hurt badly, and that is not fair, it shows in nearly every comment you make. I wish those things hadn't happened to you, but I, and the others in this thread trying to help you are not the ones who hurt you. It is OK to let your guard down sometimes, snapping at everybody and instantly resorting to insults at any sign of disagreement isn't helping you at all, it is just making you a more and more bitter person. I hope some day you can find some peace.
In general, and I'm sure some people here will be incensed at the suggestion, people do not give a shit about women's sports and the only time many of them do is when they find out a "man" is competing in them.
Women care about women's sports.
A lot of them don't. Just like a lot of women are against subsidized pre and post-natal care. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you care about women's issues.
And, based on what I've seen, the vast majority of complaints about this come from men anyway.
Most of the women in women’s sports who are asked support trans inclusion (somewhat sport dependent, some sports are historically more queer friendly than others) and find equal pay to be a much bigger issue for women’s sports. For some reason nobody who is “concerned” about women’s sports wants to hear that, though. 🤷♂️
The reason for women getting paid less in sports is due to advertisement revenue. Not as many people watch women's sports, so advertisers pay less. This results in female athletes getting paid less. I know that economics is not everyone's strong point, but you really don't have to get very deep into it to understand this concept, all it takes is an open mind and the willingness to learn something new.
“Female athletes are more concerned about equal pay than trans people in sports.”
“Ah yes but you see, nobody watches or cares about women’s sports so equal pay is impossible.”
Yes, thank you for illustrating why female athletes are more concerned about that than a manufactured hysteria from the right, lmao.
Many female athletes understand why the pay is less, and so for them, it ceases to be a concern. This is a simple economics/demand issue that many people have no problem grasping. Some people struggle to understand the basics of economics, and for them, they think there is injustice in the pay for women's sports. This same mentality would argue that every meal everywhere on the planet should always cost the same amount. However, the vast majority of people are able to understand why this wouldn't make sense. It is just when emotional issues get mixed in with this basic concept that some people lose their ability to reason logically.
A separate and unrelated group of female athletes would prefer to compete with other people who are genetically similar to themselves so they can see how they rank amongst their peers, and for them transwomen in sports is a concern.
These two issues are not directly connected, and there is no solid reason to bring up one issue to try to downplay the other. While it may feel like changing the subject is a way to win an argument because it moves the focus elsewhere, it doesn't actually work against people who are paying attention. This is the sort of tactic that can be used on children or people who don't really care about a topic, but it does nothing against fully mentally developed people who are genuinely interested in understanding.
Hi! You seem to be under the impression that I’m going to engage with your argument fetish, but you’re going to have to find someone else to take the bait. I do not engage in debate in which minorities are fine to remove from sports, and unfortunately for you since I have been on the internet for more than five minutes I am not swayed by claims of “just wanting to understand.” If you’re so concerned about understanding the issue of trans people being singled out for exclusion from sports you can RTFA ❤️
Well, no worries, before you are at any danger of having an argument or productive conversation with someone, you will first need to learn how to form a coherent point of view. Nobody has said anything about excluding minorities from sports. Sorry if that's not what you are claiming, but I read your last comment several times but was unable to figure out what you were hoping to convey. I'm not sure if the issue was a poor combination of mistyping and autocorrect or what, perhaps you're just sleep deprived or otherwise inebriated. 🫶
literally everyone is talking about whether or not trans women should be allowed in sports. gtfo with your disingenuous rhetoric
That actually isn't what they are talking about. What they are talking about is whether transwomen(genetic men) should be allowed in genetic women's sports. I've yet to see anyone saying that genetic men should not be allowed to play in genetic men's sports. There is no exclusion from sports happening to any minorities here.
In case you are genuinely interested in this topic and not just mindlessly latching onto a cookie-cutter point of view, here is a different way to think about this issue that I have seen make some headway with people in your situation before:
If LeBron James came out as identifying as a 10 year old boy, would you want him playing against your son? Why or why not? If you answer this question honestly, it just may be enlightening. I won't respond any further unless I see genuine effort on your part.
oh God the genetic men phrase again.
Give a reasonable alternative if you don't like it. Unless, that is, your strategy depends on trying to pressure people into not expressing ideas in a clear way.
Google is free! I am allowed to criticize your hateful language! And I don't owe you shit! Hope that helps!
People know the "why", but that doesn't mean that female athletes are happy with it and don't want to be paid more. They absolutely do, it's something that high ranking athletes talk about all the time. But I guess you pay more attention to the headlines hating on trans women.
"economics is not everyone's strong point" GTFO with your condescending attitude. Wow. If you're so interested in telling other people to be open minded, maybe listen to what female athletes actually have to say.
You are right. There are professional female athletes who want to earn more money. Many of them are extremely smart, and they find things they can do that will make them more money. A vocal minority gets stuck trying to fight reality. These are the ones you see and imagine are the majority. This is not the majority by any stretch of the imagination.
If you think it is unfair that women athletes get paid the amount the market pays them, then you have every right to go pay them more. Trying to force other people to pay them more is a waste of time.
The "market" is doing a notoriously great job at distributing wealth right now. How much money do the 1% have now?
Well, unfortunately, lots of people like to complain about what the market does while simultaneously encouraging it to do it with their wallets/purses. For instance, they say the market should give female athletes more money while simultaneously not buying their cards, jerseys, or going to their events.
lmao this is the worst economic analysis I've ever seen
Interesting. Care to elaborate on which part/parts you disagree with? I honestly didn't think any part of this was even slightly controversial.
No :D
Yeah, I'm starting to see a bit of a trend with you. It seems you've been trained to oppose things without knowing why. Believe it or not, there actually are some valid points inside of you, you just need to spend some time getting to know yourself enough to find them.
Cool!
.
Wow, I honestly thought Lemmy would be less transphobic. This totally rational comment downvoted for no reason. If most women in sports aren't concerned about trans women being there, why are all these assholes concerned about it.
You misunderstood. Us not wanting to compete against genetic men is absolutely not transphobic. I support transwomen whole-heartedly, they should absolutely have equal rights, and it is rude to intentionally mis-gender them. This has everything to do with wanting fair competition in sports. Men's bodies are built differently than women's bodies. This is not a human issue. This is an animal issue. It is across all species that the bodies of males and females are built differently. If this were not the case, then we never would have had male/female segregation in sports.
Just gonna point out historically most male/female segregation in sports is actually due to sexism, and a lack of women's rights, not due to an "animal issue".
Sexism against who? Do you mean against men since they were not historically allowed to play women's sports sports, while women were allowed to play men's? Correct me if I'm wrong, but women are allowed in nearly all of the world's major leagues. They just don't perform competitively enough to be drafted.
To be clear, I was saying sexual dimorphism goes much deeper than just humans. In most animal species, there is a huge difference in size and strength between males and females. Humans are not unique in this, that's all I was saying.
the word "genetic men" is a terf phrase fyi
Then give a label for someone who is born with a penis. If your goal is clear communication, then clear labeling should be your friend, not something to try to attack into extinction.
You say you want clarity but you're missing clarity yourself. Why is it important to exclude people born with penises from women's sports? You don't know what that person may have experienced hormonally over the years, and you definitely don't know their gender. Someone being born with a penis doesn't actually give you the information you're claiming to want with your terf-phrase. If you want to find inclusive language, maybe look at what some trans orgs have suggested.
Sexual dimorphism. Look it up, learn about it. This is not a new concept. It is well established and runs through the vast majority of animal species. Nobody can help you until you develop a desire to learn. The ball is in your court. Only you can get yourself out of this intellectual and emotional hole that you have dug yourself into.
Sex is a spectrum! Look it up!
I am quite sure I have studied the topic more deeply than you have :D
You are right, it is a spectrum. The spectrum of sex doesn't make sexual dimorphism invalid though. If you have studied this stuff very deeply at all, then you are exceptionally skilled at hiding it. Whenever anyone asks you anything in this thread, you always just instantly dive behind childish name calling and mindless insults. You have an opportunity to share your point of view here, and yet it always seems to come out as if you have no substance whatsoever. I know it's not true. You could be doing so much better.
I'm not interested in arguing with transphobes :) just here for other trans people
Words lose meaning when people use them too much. There actually are people put there that speak derogatorily of trans people. I'm not one of them. It is OK for people to have different points of view. I know you've been hurt badly, and that is not fair, it shows in nearly every comment you make. I wish those things hadn't happened to you, but I, and the others in this thread trying to help you are not the ones who hurt you. It is OK to let your guard down sometimes, snapping at everybody and instantly resorting to insults at any sign of disagreement isn't helping you at all, it is just making you a more and more bitter person. I hope some day you can find some peace.
I don't think most women are into sport for the pay